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Fifth Freedom from UK

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Fifth Freedom from UK

Old 20th Oct 2019, 14:32
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Fifth Freedom from UK

Assume Brexit happens and the UK leaves the EU at some point. No, I am not asking for a debate on Brexit - this is purely about Fifth Freedom Flights as per the title

Should we expect 5th freedom flights to start from the UK by airlines not based in the EU ?
I notice that Belgrade and Zurich have seen a few non-EU carriers offer shorthaul flights with full traffic rights in recent years (Hainan, Etihad, Korean and Sichuan for example) and am wondering if the UK might see exotic metal on short haul flights / tag-on flights *with traffic rights*, such as RwandaAir on Gatwick-Brussels

To repeat, please don't start a debate on Brexit - the focus is on 5th freedom flights by non-EU airlines from the UK after an (assumed) Brexit happens
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 15:12
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Many moons ago JAT had received approval to operate from Belgrade to Newyork with a fuel stop in BFS on DC10s. The story goes it never happened as they could not get traffic rights from BFS to the states and VV.
Its possible that operating outside the EU some airports might get a few seats sold but I would think the margins would be minimal. I wonder how it works with cargo?
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 15:42
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The UK has always been quite liberal with 5th freedom rights.

I believe Air India, Kuwait and Cathay Pacific (although CX never used them) have rights to fly to New York from UK.

Singapore does Manchester - Houston.

Hainan did Edinburgh - Dublin.

Part of the attraction for carriers operating 5th freedom routes is if there is a need for a stopover or it allows poorly loaded routes to be sustained by picking up more pax. Not many routes need stopovers now and the UK is a booming market so fewer stops are needed.
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 16:25
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Brexit has nothing to do with fifth and sixth freedom long haul through UK airports -More specifically Heathrow/Gatwick/Manchester/Birmingham and historically Prestwick.

That said there has been a long history of fifth freedom operations, however the majority simply went away as range and simple economics allowed carriers to fly greater distances and right over the top of old Blighty .

The days of the likes of Alitalia , Sabena, Air Canada and El-AL traversing are long gone never to return

Exceptions are Air Indias on off on off on and off again transit flights via Heathrow and Birmingham to New York and Toronto.
With valuable slots a premium Air India have again canned west bound operations via Heathrow in preference of an extra India return.

Pakistan - US flights currently suspended - Can’t fly PAK -US none stop even with the 77L if they wanted too due US security concerns- as a result the economics don’t work and flights indefinitely suspended .
Might return however Barcelona is also a preferred transit point for them, that said new Islambad airport is said to be close to being security upgraded by the US authorities, such that none stop services can at last be operated soon.

Singapore via Manchester to Houston combine two important network points where boxes play a significant supporting role to organic blobs

To be honest what airlines are thinking about - The ME3/4 - IMHO that boat has sailed - Qatar are embargoed regionally and as a result has far too many planes . Etihad are a busted flush, and Emirates serve most US points of importance directly.
Gulf Air a sorry shadow of a once proud regional player - Na and Oman well maybe at a push however would probably prefer HOME - None stop with the sub continental one stop advantage over a potential UK uplift.

Ethiopian well they have gone to Dublin . What could entice them via a UK port instead ideas on a post card ?

Just about the only conceivable carrier i can think of right now would be Birman .

What about the Chinese you might say , Dublin/Edinburgh wasn’t a raving success so where would they really want/need to go to via the UK ?

Central or South America? - They do that via Madrid where they at least can dump some very cheap VFR tickets on the consolidators whilst hauling their boxes of cr*p and delivering Xi Jinping sponsored “technical personnel and financiers” to milk these developing markets !

Last edited by Rutan16; 20th Oct 2019 at 16:51.
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 18:27
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Aer Lingus once used Manchester as a staging post for FF flights between Ireland and continental Europe. Brussels and Copenhagen come to mind. What became of these flights ?
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 19:35
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What about UK cargo ops? DHL UK & West Atlantic comes to mind. In case of a no deal they would be operating some fifth freedom flights with off/on loading. I am quite sure they will get a (temporary) waiver but what happens after?
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 20:58
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Originally Posted by Mooncrest View Post
Aer Lingus once used Manchester as a staging post for FF flights between Ireland and continental Europe. Brussels and Copenhagen come to mind. What became of these flights ?
Through the the sixties and seventies via the pooling arrangements and then again at the start of open skyís and single market within the EU .

Aer Lingus served Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Hamburg , Zurich, and Milan, via Manchester in the seventies under pooling where it didnít matter if you flew EI/BE/LH/KL/SR/AZ or SK the ticket prices were the same all on a single docket revenues being shared and prices were monsteroius by modern standards . Timetables were however co-ordinated
They later tried again under open skyís with an additional route via Bristol to Brussels without much success

Other routes operated via Manchester have included TAP to Dublin, Luxair to Dublin, SAS to Dublin, Lufthansa to Dublin Sterling to yes you guessed it !
Something of a thyme do you think ?

By the way Aer Lingus also had a short Manchester and Belfast via Shannon and Dublin series of direct US services the eighties from memory.
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 08:58
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Originally Posted by Rutan16 View Post
Brexit has nothing to do with fifth and sixth freedom long haul through UK airports -More specifically Heathrow/Gatwick/Manchester/Birmingham and historically Prestwick.

That said there has been a long history of fifth freedom operations, however the majority simply went away as range and simple economics allowed carriers to fly greater distances and right over the top of old Blighty .

The days of the likes of Alitalia , Sabena, Air Canada and El-AL traversing are long gone never to return

Exceptions are Air Indias on off on off on and off again transit flights via Heathrow and Birmingham to New York and Toronto.
With valuable slots a premium Air India have again canned west bound operations via Heathrow in preference of an extra India return.

Pakistan - US flights currently suspended - Canít fly PAK -US none stop even with the 77L if they wanted too due US security concerns- as a result the economics donít work and flights indefinitely suspended .
Might return however Barcelona is also a preferred transit point for them, that said new Islambad airport is said to be close to being security upgraded by the US authorities, such that none stop services can at last be operated soon.

Singapore via Manchester to Houston combine two important network points where boxes play a significant supporting role to organic blobs

To be honest what airlines are thinking about - The ME3/4 - IMHO that boat has sailed - Qatar are embargoed regionally and as a result has far too many planes . Etihad are a busted flush, and Emirates serve most US points of importance directly.
Gulf Air a sorry shadow of a once proud regional player - Na and Oman well maybe at a push however would probably prefer HOME - None stop with the sub continental one stop advantage over a potential UK uplift.

Ethiopian well they have gone to Dublin . What could entice them via a UK port instead ideas on a post card ?

Just about the only conceivable carrier i can think of right now would be Birman .

What about the Chinese you might say , Dublin/Edinburgh wasnít a raving success so where would they really want/need to go to via the UK ?

Central or South America? - They do that via Madrid where they at least can dump some very cheap VFR tickets on the consolidators whilst hauling their boxes of cr*p and delivering Xi Jinping sponsored ďtechnical personnel and financiersĒ to milk these developing markets !
RE Ethiopian - does their flight ADD-BRU-MAN not count as a fifth freedom? I understand they can't pick up in Brussels, but does that reduce the degrees of freedom?
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 12:00
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Just for sake of completeness, EI also operated DUB-BHX-BRU for a short while as a 5th freedom, think it was early 90's?

BHX has seen its fair share of 5th freedom long haul: PIA to YYZ and briefly ORD, AI to YYZ and very briefly Uzbekistan to JFK, 9/11 happened soon after and this flight was quickly dropped.

I flew MAN-MUC on SQ and through pure luck I also flew MAD-FRA on LAN Chile about 5 years ago. I say luck as the company I worked for at the time booked it for me and I guess it was the cheapest flight on the day!

Are there any 5th freedom flights left in Europe at all now?
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 12:52
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LAN's Madrid-Frankfurt still operates
Etihad have a sort of 5th freedom, in that they operate JU388/JU389 for Air Serbia on Heathrow-Belgrade to preserve the slot that was leased to JetAirways on Heathrow-India until Jet went bust. Think it's been sold to AA as of next week
Emirates operate Malta-Larnaca (or the reverse)
Sichuan operate Helsinki-Copenhagen
davidjohnson6 is online now  
Old 21st Oct 2019, 17:00
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Originally Posted by GayFriendly View Post
Just for sake of completeness, EI also operated DUB-BHX-BRU for a short while as a 5th freedom, think it was early 90's?

BHX has seen its fair share of 5th freedom long haul: PIA to YYZ and briefly ORD, AI to YYZ and very briefly Uzbekistan to JFK, 9/11 happened soon after and this flight was quickly dropped.

I flew MAN-MUC on SQ and through pure luck I also flew MAD-FRA on LAN Chile about 5 years ago. I say luck as the company I worked for at the time booked it for me and I guess it was the cheapest flight on the day!

Are there any 5th freedom flights left in Europe at all now?
There's the list that people have provided in this forum, and also I believe I didn't see mentioned ET's 5th freedom Oslo to Stockholm with traffic rights.
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