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Old 4th Oct 2018, 07:56
  #721 (permalink)  
 
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I think you'll find two have submitted the complaints. I don't need the form or the sarcasm myself, thanks. The issue isn't about a Government being pro-active in supporting economic development and air services. It's the extent to which the Cardiiff contingent has intervened in the market and the magnitude of support introduced in pure cash terms which is extraordinary and the key difference to other regions and areas.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 08:09
  #722 (permalink)  
 
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Although most people reading this board are in favour of aviation developments, there is a view that taxpayers' money (taken compulsorily from every man, woman and child) should not be used to prop up any long-haul air service.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 08:33
  #723 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flightrider View Post
I think you'll find two have submitted the complaints. I don't need the form or the sarcasm myself, thanks. The issue isn't about a Government being pro-active in supporting economic development and air services. It's the extent to which the Cardiiff contingent has intervened in the market and the magnitude of support introduced in pure cash terms which is extraordinary and the key difference to other regions and areas.
Well that's interesting news! I wonder who they are that's complained bevatse in reality Cardiff Airport isn't really a competitor for any of the airports nearby.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 08:42
  #724 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LGS6753 View Post
Although most people reading this board are in favour of aviation developments, there is a view that taxpayers' money (taken compulsorily from every man, woman and child) should not be used to prop up any long-haul air service.
The marketing deal between the Welsh government and Qatar Airways is to promise Wales as a country through Qatar Airways network. That can only benefit Wales and her people.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 08:51
  #725 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDXCWL45 View Post
The marketing deal between the Welsh government and Qatar Airways is to promise Wales as a country through Qatar Airways network. That can only benefit Wales and her people.
and APD devolved to Wales will be the next step in boasting the Welsh economy. It's " when, not if".
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 09:10
  #726 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by heading 125 View Post

and APD devolved to Wales will be the next step in boasting the Welsh economy. It's " when, not if".
Fingers crossed for that!
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 09:20
  #727 (permalink)  
 
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Aren't there more pressing things in life to be worrying about rather than whether the Welsh government has funded a couple of routes? Seriously.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 10:46
  #728 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flightrider View Post
I think that's exactly the point. Qatar would not have chosen BRS, BFS or EXT as none of the local funding authorities in those locations would have offered the magnitude of support required to secure the service. Had they done so, I would indeed have classed it as a vanity project. The fact remains that only CWL and the Welsh Government did. An increasing proportion of services at Cardiff only exist because of the terms offered which a commercial enterprise could not, in my view, afford to do. How this continues to escape state aid considerations is beyond belief.
This is nothing to do with state aid as I have said previously this is no different to other locations within the UK offering marketing inducements. QR have been considering the prospect for numerous years prior to the route launch earlier this spring.
Indications I have received from sources within Qatar Airways say they are encouraged by the commercial numbers thus far. Whilst I do not fly the red flag personally the Welsh government should be applauded for taking back control of CWL. Yes we all know they paid circa 25M over the top but at least it is now a going concern with a future and not another retail park.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 10:52
  #729 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

[QUOTE=PDXCWL45;10265639]Fingers crossed for that![/QUOTE
I second that lets have the same flexibility as Mrs Krankie in Scotland
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 11:11
  #730 (permalink)  
 
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The Cardiff Qatar is decried as a 'vanity project'. But so are make-up, car-ownership, and writing a comment without cliche.
Recently a member of our family used the service with colleagues to travel to India to setup a joint R&D project. Soon he'll be using the KLM service to do the same in Europe, again bringing work and money to South Wales. I must stop - it's vain to boast of such workaday achievements.
I assume all those who condemn the service as receiving an incentive from the airport never accept introductory inducements from utility suppliers etc.It would be so hypocritical to have your electric or netflix cross-subsidised by those paying the real cost plus.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 11:26
  #731 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zoomboy View Post
I assume all those who condemn the service as receiving an incentive from the airport never accept introductory inducements from utility suppliers etc.It would be so hypocritical to have your electric or netflix cross-subsidised by those paying the real cost plus.
So long as the inducements are available to everybody, not a problem. It's selective government funded inducements which aren't available to competitors which is the issue
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 11:56
  #732 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
So long as the inducements are available to everybody, not a problem. It's selective government funded inducements which aren't available to competitors which is the issue
but you can say the same for everything just read about a steel company going bust despite a 5m government grant. Where was the same for coal for example? What deal was given to Nissan to stay in the UK following Brexit? Why has the same deal not been given to another company?

It has been confirmed that £1m has been matched with Qatar to develop the route. Thereís no reason why Visit England or Visit Scotland etc canít offer the same. If they choose not to thatís up to them.

as for the other loans provided to the airport theyíre on commercial terms which will be available to every business.

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Old 4th Oct 2018, 13:41
  #733 (permalink)  
 
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The Welsh Assembly Government has given 18 million quid to Aston Martin as an inducement to come to St. Athan. This does not seem to have bothered any plane spotters, and it is a damn side more than has been given to CWL
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 14:21
  #734 (permalink)  
 
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I think Iíll put a bet in place that long haul APD is devolved to Wales and that Qatar Airways increase their flights from Cardiff. 😀
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 14:57
  #735 (permalink)  
 
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There is something of a difference between a long term investment in capital facilities and an air service that can be withdrawn the day the money runs out! I stick by my views - clearly not popular but it is also reaching the point where everyone knows Cardiff pay airlines to fly there and no-one will develop services there now without being paid to do it. If youíre happy with that situation and think itís sustainable then Iíd support full devolution of all tax affairs to WG soonest so that none of my taxes are going forwards funding this charade!
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 16:02
  #736 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flightrider View Post
There is something of a difference between a long term investment in capital facilities and an air service that can be withdrawn the day the money runs out! I stick by my views - clearly not popular but it is also reaching the point where everyone knows Cardiff pay airlines to fly there and no-one will develop services there now without being paid to do it. If youíre happy with that situation and think itís sustainable then Iíd support full devolution of all tax affairs to WG soonest so that none of my taxes are going forwards funding this charade!
Except it's not your taxes as by the sounds of it you don't live in Wales.
And you have proof airlines won't fly to Cardiff unless they are paid?
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 16:53
  #737 (permalink)  
 
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Except it's not your taxes as by the sounds of it you don't live in Wales.
This is getting silly now - you might want to check your facts.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 17:39
  #738 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flightrider View Post
There is something of a difference between a long term investment in capital facilities and an air service that can be withdrawn the day the money runs out! I stick by my views - clearly not popular but it is also reaching the point where everyone knows Cardiff pay airlines to fly there and no-one will develop services there now without being paid to do it. If youíre happy with that situation and think itís sustainable then Iíd support full devolution of all tax affairs to WG soonest so that none of my taxes are going forwards funding this charade!
It's fairly obvious that currently CWL is being supported by SOME Airlines that are benefiting from whatever it is is being given. Whether it be marketing help, reduced fees or some kind of subsidy. The are other Airlines at CWL that have been there some time and I doubt they are still receiving any benefits.
TUI are growing to a 3rd aircraft next summer. Although it's not much to shout about, they are still maintaining the winter long haul and cruise schedules.
Vueling are operating decent schedules and have now been around some time. It was said they previously had marketing incentives, which I doubt are still being provided.
CWL is growing after being neglected by Abertis years ago. Had the investment been provided throughout it would be interesting to see where CWL would be now. What the WG has done is provided investment that should have been done by Abertis. The issue is that it's now in the public eye and continually being scrutinised. But lets not forget that ultimately the investment in QR is an investment in the Welsh economy, not just CWL.

What no-one knows is what will happen post "incentive time" for Flybe and Qatar. Flybe are said to be happy with the CWL operation, but I would also think some of their routes aren't performing as well as they could be. As for QR, it's only a few months in. Figures are growing and becoming comparable to the likes of BHX already. It could go either way, and I believe there's valid points provided on both sides, but only time will tell. There's obviously some pessimistic views and some optimistic views, this is a rumour and open forum after all.
What is evident is whatever CWL are doing, they are doing it right. Growth is happening, but there's still a long way to go. Personally I think it's too early to write off anything that's currently happening as a long term failure.
Given that BRS has grown by over 2m passenger in the past 4/5 years and is projected to continually grow, where it's currently at 8+m per year, there's no doubt that a proportion of that is from the South Wales catchment (1m+ is a figure thrown around recently). What CWL is slowly doing is winning those passengers back. Clearly not all of those passengers are going to switch to CWL as they may to travelling to places offered from BRS but not CWL. But I do know that many people that use BRS are travelling to places offered from CWL, but either default to the likes of EZY and FR without checking CWL because of the age old perception that's it's always more expensive to fly from CWL, which I would say is not always true. CWL needs to work on trying to promote itself and change that way of thinking. Help the current routes to grow and become sustainable, and then look to the future growth of route network.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 19:50
  #739 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
This is getting silly now - you might want to check your facts.
I know my facts thank you and yes you are right this is getting silly but this seems to happen on the Cardiff thread because people can't seem to cope with Cardiff growing again and some people seem offended by that it seems to me.
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Old 4th Oct 2018, 21:03
  #740 (permalink)  
 
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Except it's not your taxes as by the sounds of it you don't live in Wales.
The implication here is that those in the UK who live outside of Wales don't contribute to the funding of the Welsh Government. Have I understood correctly, and if so can you provide any evidence to support your comment?

I've nothing against state intervention and I've nothing against Cardiff growing - I do however believe that state intervention should be fair and open, and available to every one.
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