Flybe - 8
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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The railways are taking more and more domestic traffic now as journey times are speeding up
If you're headed out to/from the Thames Valley "powerhouse", then a flight to/from Heathrow (where available) may be better. If you're headed the City or Docklands/Canary Wharf ", then a flight to/from London CityHeathrow (where available) may be better.
If you're journeying between points not touching London, then you're probably on a not-so-frequent, very slow, stopping all over the place, cross country train. Flying is clearly a better option.
The faster and more frequent the train, the higher the fare.
Some are, but others definitely are not....example being SW England into London. For example, Flybe from EXT into LCY often cheaper than the train and definitely quicker (depending on where you're actually going in London)
True again in some cases, but plenty of routes around the UK (and some into regional France) that won't ever be RYR or EZY territory.
1. It's not speed but frequency. Between both GLA and EDI there are usually three flights per day to MAN. (There are no GLA - MAN flights on a Saturday). Train is every hour alternately. I suspect that most MAN PAX from Scotland either take a coach or drive - whenever I'm in Tebay services there always seem to be holiday groups.
the train may not be quick, but it is much more frequent
None of those are indeed very quick by train, but are almost comparable for frequency.
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I was specifically referring to MAN. Of the other routes, BHX is vulnerable only because many people find it easier to city centre stations than out of town airports. Within central England, air is viable because Cross Country services are still so slow; frequency is fine. EXE is supported by being Flybe HQ.
I was specifically referring to MAN. Of the other routes, BHX is vulnerable only because many people find it easier to city centre stations than out of town airports. Within central England, air is viable because Cross Country services are still so slow; frequency is fine. EXE is supported by being Flybe HQ.
Even given the ever growing faff of airport security routes as long at EDI / BHX will never face real competition from rail, unless HS2 finds it's way north of the Border, which if it happen will be long after we're all dead!! GLA is slightly less well placed, with a road trek from Glasgow to the airport.
Not sure where EXE is, but EXT to MAN will never face real competition as the rail line doesn't go near London, and as such will never benefit from proper express trains. If the demand is there, the route is secured from rail competition.
BHX's main vulnerability is the appalling security queuing and set-up. It's so far behind other UK airports (many of which aren't great themselves) that it makes flying through there a terrible experience. And on the EDI trams - you're generally quicker off on the bus into town given the number of stops on the tram line!
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It's about 240 miles by rail between MAN and EXT. At Intercity speeds it should take just over 3 hours. It actually takes over 4 by the few through trains. The same as it takes to drive.
It's not the time in security that puts people off. (As I write the queue in EDI is 3 minutes). It's the need to arrive so far in advance of departure. And the tram or bus takes 30 minutes to reach central Edinburgh. Given the choice of an uninterrupted train and a plane journey in several bits, I'm sure the train has most of the GLA/EDI to BHX market. The fact is that domestic traffic from EDI/GLA is static or falling, and must be hurting Flybe.
It's not the time in security that puts people off. (As I write the queue in EDI is 3 minutes). It's the need to arrive so far in advance of departure. And the tram or bus takes 30 minutes to reach central Edinburgh. Given the choice of an uninterrupted train and a plane journey in several bits, I'm sure the train has most of the GLA/EDI to BHX market. The fact is that domestic traffic from EDI/GLA is static or falling, and must be hurting Flybe.
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It will increasingly do so the more the railway infrastructre will get improved. It is interesting to see how domestic flying has changed in France and Germany since the opening of HSR lines. given the relatively small size of England most South-East-bound traffic from MAN, LBA, NCL, GLA, EDI will disappear. The interesting part will be if, like in France, domestic feed to LHR will still be provided with smaller planes or if, for the sake of freeing up precious slots, LHR can be properly integrated into HSR in the same way as it has been done at FRA or ZRH.
It will increasingly do so the more the railway infrastructre will get improved. It is interesting to see how domestic flying has changed in France and Germany since the opening of HSR lines. given the relatively small size of England most South-East-bound traffic from MAN, LBA, NCL, GLA, EDI will disappear. The interesting part will be if, like in France, domestic feed to LHR will still be provided with smaller planes or if, for the sake of freeing up precious slots, LHR can be properly integrated into HSR in the same way as it has been done at FRA or ZRH.
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I do think there will always be a good market for southbound routes such as NCL - Exeter and NCL Southampton and even NCL -Newquay.....by rail these places need both a change of train and a change on London rail station.
Colleagues made the 6 hour plus journey to Exeter the other week, then a couple of days later spent 45 minutes returning EXT-NCL :-).
I enjoyed the comment about the improving railway infrastructure - that was funny
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As far as Exeter and Southampton are concerned you only need to change trains an station if you choose to travel via London. There is an hourly direct train to Plymouth and some through trains to Southampton.
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What I was pointing out was that the train may not be quick, but it is much more frequent. At present there are 7 trains to Glasgow and 8 to Edinburgh.
I'd question that assertion also, Flybe currently fly 6 times a day SOU-EDI (in both directions), 5 times a day EDI-LCY, 7 times a day EDI-BHX and "only" 4 times a day EDI-MAN, and (impressively) between MAN-EXT.
None of those are indeed very quick by train, but are almost comparable for frequency.
None of those are indeed very quick by train, but are almost comparable for frequency.
I was specifically referring to MAN. Of the other routes, BHX is vulnerable only because many people find it easier to city centre stations than out of town airports. Within central England, air is viable because Cross Country services are still so slow; frequency is fine. EXE is supported by being Flybe HQ.
Not absolutely sure what you mean ref. BHX. EDI is excellently connected to the city by the trams, and BHX by "proper" trains that run at a very high frequency to Birmingham New Street.
Even given the ever growing faff of airport security routes as long at EDI / BHX will never face real competition from rail, unless HS2 finds it's way north of the Border, which if it happen will be long after we're all dead!! GLA is slightly less well placed, with a road trek from Glasgow to the airport.
Not sure where EXE is, but EXT to MAN will never face real competition as the rail line doesn't go near London, and as such will never benefit from proper express trains. If the demand is there, the route is secured from rail competition.
Even given the ever growing faff of airport security routes as long at EDI / BHX will never face real competition from rail, unless HS2 finds it's way north of the Border, which if it happen will be long after we're all dead!! GLA is slightly less well placed, with a road trek from Glasgow to the airport.
Not sure where EXE is, but EXT to MAN will never face real competition as the rail line doesn't go near London, and as such will never benefit from proper express trains. If the demand is there, the route is secured from rail competition.
It's about 240 miles by rail between MAN and EXT. At Intercity speeds it should take just over 3 hours. It actually takes over 4 by the few through trains. The same as it takes to drive.
It's not the time in security that puts people off. (As I write the queue in EDI is 3 minutes). It's the need to arrive so far in advance of departure. And the tram or bus takes 30 minutes to reach central Edinburgh. Given the choice of an uninterrupted train and a plane journey in several bits, I'm sure the train has most of the GLA/EDI to BHX market. The fact is that domestic traffic from EDI/GLA is static or falling, and must be hurting Flybe.
It's not the time in security that puts people off. (As I write the queue in EDI is 3 minutes). It's the need to arrive so far in advance of departure. And the tram or bus takes 30 minutes to reach central Edinburgh. Given the choice of an uninterrupted train and a plane journey in several bits, I'm sure the train has most of the GLA/EDI to BHX market. The fact is that domestic traffic from EDI/GLA is static or falling, and must be hurting Flybe.
Routes have to be profitable for carriers or they are cut. The rail operators are certainly profitable because they get one hell of a large subsidy from the government.
It will increasingly do so the more the railway infrastructre will get improved. It is interesting to see how domestic flying has changed in France and Germany since the opening of HSR lines. given the relatively small size of England most South-East-bound traffic from MAN, LBA, NCL, GLA, EDI will disappear.
LHR can be properly integrated into HSR in the same way as it has been done at FRA or ZRH.
1. It's already been decided that HS2 won't go to LHR;
2. The vanity project that is HS2 will eventually be scrapped;
3. EU directives on "inter-operability" of high speed networks won't apply (eventually).
Unfortunately an integrated transport network is incompatible with free market capitalism. Would be deemed anticompetitive
As far as Exeter and Southampton are concerned you only need to change trains an station if you choose to travel via London. There is an hourly direct train to Plymouth and some through trains to Southampton.
A through cross-country train takes all day.
If driving, it's grid lock on the motorways or speed traps where not congested.
So why not have the option of flying as well?
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Eventually, even the UK will come around. Not anytime soon, but at some point in the future as the future of short haul travel is not in the air. The other day, Lufthansa - of all possible investors - announced its interest in Hyperloop to replace domestic flights:
https://barrieaircraft.com/news/berl...d-of-a320.html
(sorry, no other free English language source)
https://barrieaircraft.com/news/berl...d-of-a320.html
(sorry, no other free English language source)
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The air-related aspect of this thread is that these domestic routes require a steady flow of business PAX whose businesses will pay premium fares for flexible travel, allowing a few leisure PAX to get lower fares. We have got so used to travelling for peanuts that we baulk at the realistic fares which an operator of smaller a/c must charge. Their margins are always going to be thin at best. Any transfer to another mode may make the whole route collapse - they can't reduce frequencies without losing even more PAX....