Flag carries - a thing of the past
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Flag carries - a thing of the past
The recent shut down of Cyprus Airways made me thinking if a state really needs a state flag carrier or is better off having a strong private carrier. In Europe at least safety is not at stake and PSO routes provide incentive to fly the thin routes to the isolated areas maybe airlines are better off if they are private business.
What do you think? Do you (as pax or being in the industry) prefer the the state flag carries or do you prefer to see private airlines?
Kindly treat flag carriers as synonym for state airlines - I know there is a difference.
What do you think? Do you (as pax or being in the industry) prefer the the state flag carries or do you prefer to see private airlines?
Kindly treat flag carriers as synonym for state airlines - I know there is a difference.
Paxing All Over The World
This is a hobbyhorse I have ridden before! 
I think that 'flag carrier' does mean a state airline and not a large commercial company. As such, the UK has not had one for a long time and Europe has moved beyond this fashion. This idea has always meant more to the politicians and those who believe in their country being the best. I always rail at those who suggest that a 'plc' is a flag carrier.
It is my view that the younger generations (under 45/50 as an arbitrary line) are only interested in the price and service - not who owns the company.
In short - it makes no never mind to me. I look at their safety record and all the usual factors before booking, not who owns them. I view the insistence of BA that they are a flag carrier as simple marketing. Likewise when VS painted flags on the winglets. The image is meaningless to me but if it gets them some customers then it's worth the paint.
Countries used to like have a flag carrying ocean liner but most of them were private and then they 'flagged out'. Flags were fashion then and now.
I think that 'flag carrier' does mean a state airline and not a large commercial company. As such, the UK has not had one for a long time and Europe has moved beyond this fashion. This idea has always meant more to the politicians and those who believe in their country being the best. I always rail at those who suggest that a 'plc' is a flag carrier.
It is my view that the younger generations (under 45/50 as an arbitrary line) are only interested in the price and service - not who owns the company.
In short - it makes no never mind to me. I look at their safety record and all the usual factors before booking, not who owns them. I view the insistence of BA that they are a flag carrier as simple marketing. Likewise when VS painted flags on the winglets. The image is meaningless to me but if it gets them some customers then it's worth the paint.
Countries used to like have a flag carrying ocean liner but most of them were private and then they 'flagged out'. Flags were fashion then and now.
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Flagcarrier
Back in the day, having an airline was a matter of prestige and a matter of state enterprise. All were IATA members, fares were the same and set by IATA, and first class was double the economy fare. Some carriers made money, some did not.
Bit by bit this changed, and those days are now long.
The term "flag carrier" now is effectively meaningless and only usable for marketing purposes.
Bit by bit this changed, and those days are now long.
The term "flag carrier" now is effectively meaningless and only usable for marketing purposes.
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BA lost its status as a 'flag carrier' for me when that idiot Robert Ayling decided to rebrand it, to distance itself from its Britishness, in colours representative of various cultures across the globe. Most of them looked as if a cat had thrown up over them but aside from that, he achieved the exact opposite of that the marketing people had striven over the years to achieve, wasting a lot of time and money (£60m) in the process.
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All well and done but honestly how can anyone not define BA as the official flag carrier for the UK regardless if it is a listed company, the same could be said for most European countries for example even if some might be part of a larger airline group such as IAG or Lufthansa.
US airlines for example have never had an official flag carrier as other nations worldwide have
Such examples in Europe are
Aer Lingus - Ireland
British Airways - United Kingdom
Icelandair - Iceland
Atlantic Airways - Faroe Islands
Greenlandair - Greenland
- Denmark
SAS Scandinavian - Norway
- Sweden
Finnair - Finland
Aeroflot - Russia
Estonian Air - Estonia
Air Baltic - Latvia
Air Lithuanica - Lithuania
Belavia - Belarus
LOT - Poland
Lufthansa - Germany
KLM - Netherlands
Brussels Airlines - Belgium
Luxair - Luxembourg
Swiss - Switzerland
Austrian - Austria
Air France - France
Iberia - Spain
Air Portugal - Portugal
CSA - Czech Repulic
Alitalia - Italy
Air Malta - Malta
Adria Airways - Slovenia
Croatian Airlines - Croatia
Air Serbia - Serbia
BH Airlines - Bosnia Herzegovina
Montenegro Airlines - Montenegro
Tarom - Romania
Bulgaria Air - Bulgaria
Air Moldova - Moldova
Ukraine International - Ukraine
MAT Macedonian Airlines - Macedonia
You could also add Aegean Airlines to the list for Greece instead of Olympic!
Of course I didn't actually have to list them all but I enjoyed doing it
US airlines for example have never had an official flag carrier as other nations worldwide have
Such examples in Europe are
Aer Lingus - Ireland
British Airways - United Kingdom
Icelandair - Iceland
Atlantic Airways - Faroe Islands
Greenlandair - Greenland
- Denmark
SAS Scandinavian - Norway
- Sweden
Finnair - Finland
Aeroflot - Russia
Estonian Air - Estonia
Air Baltic - Latvia
Air Lithuanica - Lithuania
Belavia - Belarus
LOT - Poland
Lufthansa - Germany
KLM - Netherlands
Brussels Airlines - Belgium
Luxair - Luxembourg
Swiss - Switzerland
Austrian - Austria
Air France - France
Iberia - Spain
Air Portugal - Portugal
CSA - Czech Repulic
Alitalia - Italy
Air Malta - Malta
Adria Airways - Slovenia
Croatian Airlines - Croatia
Air Serbia - Serbia
BH Airlines - Bosnia Herzegovina
Montenegro Airlines - Montenegro
Tarom - Romania
Bulgaria Air - Bulgaria
Air Moldova - Moldova
Ukraine International - Ukraine
MAT Macedonian Airlines - Macedonia
You could also add Aegean Airlines to the list for Greece instead of Olympic!
Of course I didn't actually have to list them all but I enjoyed doing it
All well and done but honestly how can anyone not define BA as the official flag carrier for the UK
A "flag carrier" is an airline that is state owned. BA is a private company. And that is even before starting on the fact that perhaps BA should be renamed "London Airways" as they serve VERY little of the rest of the UK.
Thread Starter
PAXboy,
Your message is much more appreciated after my second (double) espresso. It seems that the notion of a state airline to carry the flag across the globe has fallen from favour.
canberra97, impressive list. Thank you.
FRatSTN do you have to propose something else? I don't see the difference and I would welcome to be informed.
Many thanks for all who took time to answer. Please feel free to keep answering.
Rwy in Sight
Your message is much more appreciated after my second (double) espresso. It seems that the notion of a state airline to carry the flag across the globe has fallen from favour.
canberra97, impressive list. Thank you.
FRatSTN do you have to propose something else? I don't see the difference and I would welcome to be informed.
Many thanks for all who took time to answer. Please feel free to keep answering.
Rwy in Sight
It seems that the notion of a state airline to carry the flag across the globe has fallen from favour.
US airlines for example have never had an official flag carrier as other nations worldwide have
More dimly, there's a notion that in part the term flag carrier related to carriage of the state of registration's international mail. Analogous to the term RMS (Royal Mail Ship) in a vessel's name. Indeed BEA used the prefix RMA where aircraft were named, eg 'Discovery Class' Viscount G ALWF RMA Sir John Franklin.
Capetonian,
I agree. Thank heavens I had retired by then!
I agree. Thank heavens I had retired by then!
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Groundloop
I don't fully agree with you as the majority of the airlines I mentioned are or were government owned but are still very much classed as the country's 'flag carriers'.
You know that is the case your just trying to be difficult!
And don't use the as it's immature!
I don't fully agree with you as the majority of the airlines I mentioned are or were government owned but are still very much classed as the country's 'flag carriers'.
You know that is the case your just trying to be difficult!
And don't use the
as it's immature!
Last edited by canberra97; 16th Jan 2015 at 16:16.
Airbanda
You could add Northwest & Braniff to the list (and others serving short haul overseas routes).
Pan Am used to be considered as the chosen instrument although Juan Trippe lost a lot of influence in later years.
The US limits foreign ownership to 25%, one of the arguments being that the airline might be needed as part of the defence effort. There is always the Fly America programme but that has rather been overtaken by code sharing.
What has changed is the reduction in state owned flag carriers. Some flag carriers were partially privately owned, Swissair being an example. SAS is interesting. The Governments of Sweden Denmark & Norway owned 50% and the other half was privately owned. Was SAS a flag carrier?
What is interesting is whether a state needs a flag carrier. If, for the sake of argument, Alitalia ceases trading, other airlines will obviously move in to fill the gap. However this may only be increased feed to their own hubs. This would effectively de-hub Milan & Rome and reduce the number of non stop flights and destinations served, particularly long haul, which might make the cities less attractive as a international business centres. Exponents of airport expansion would certainly cite this although you might argue that Geneva, for example, wasn't hurt by Swissair going bust (although SR had largely de-hubbed there at the time of its demise).
The EU believes that countries do not need flag carriers. However it could well be that BA, LH, AF and possibly KL are too large to fail. It would certainly be interesting times if any of them were to become insolvent (and AFKLM or at least the AF side, is currently looking frail).
You could add Northwest & Braniff to the list (and others serving short haul overseas routes).
Pan Am used to be considered as the chosen instrument although Juan Trippe lost a lot of influence in later years.
The US limits foreign ownership to 25%, one of the arguments being that the airline might be needed as part of the defence effort. There is always the Fly America programme but that has rather been overtaken by code sharing.
What has changed is the reduction in state owned flag carriers. Some flag carriers were partially privately owned, Swissair being an example. SAS is interesting. The Governments of Sweden Denmark & Norway owned 50% and the other half was privately owned. Was SAS a flag carrier?
What is interesting is whether a state needs a flag carrier. If, for the sake of argument, Alitalia ceases trading, other airlines will obviously move in to fill the gap. However this may only be increased feed to their own hubs. This would effectively de-hub Milan & Rome and reduce the number of non stop flights and destinations served, particularly long haul, which might make the cities less attractive as a international business centres. Exponents of airport expansion would certainly cite this although you might argue that Geneva, for example, wasn't hurt by Swissair going bust (although SR had largely de-hubbed there at the time of its demise).
The EU believes that countries do not need flag carriers. However it could well be that BA, LH, AF and possibly KL are too large to fail. It would certainly be interesting times if any of them were to become insolvent (and AFKLM or at least the AF side, is currently looking frail).
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SAS was very much the flag carrier for Denmark, Norway and Sweden that's why it was originally set up by the governments of those countries, no other airline in those countries were anywhere near the size of SAS so could never compete on the same scale!
Thread Starter
Peter47
This is a question I would love to see answered. I liked yours and I look forward to see more although I guess we don't have too many PPRuNers that can speak on behalf of a state - even in condition of annonymity
.
Any more answers?
Rwy in Sight
What is interesting is whether a state needs a flag carrier.
.Any more answers?
Rwy in Sight
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As a bit of a curiosity for those that weren't around at the time, in the late 70's / early 80's, Britain's second major airline, British Caledonian, was the designated British flag carrier for services to South America, West Africa and Texas from its main base at Gatwick, BA serving everywhere else. That state of affairs didn't last too long, probably because BA had all the profitable routes and B-Cal's long haul fleet consisted of DC 10's which didn't have the best reputation and spent some time grounded after a string of accidents, well after BA took over B-Cal they didn't seem to hang on to them too long.
By the definition postulated here, a "flag carrier" has to be a nationalised company. That economic model has now been discredited the world over and fewer and fewer companies in all sectors are government-owned. Even Russia and China are turning their backs on state ownership.
Those remaining state-owned airlines are being privatised or facing closure, so for the present I think it's fair to say that flag carriers are a thing of the past.
Those remaining state-owned airlines are being privatised or facing closure, so for the present I think it's fair to say that flag carriers are a thing of the past.