Flights over war zones...question.

[John Hill]

Where could I find information regarding the areas of the world currently off limits to civil airlines due to wars, upheavals etc?

In the same vein, where could I find information regarding airlines that fly over North Korea?

Thanks.

[EK77WNCL]

I think...I might be wrong here but... I think Air Koryo might fly over North Korea occasionally (sorry couldn't resist)

I don't know but some of these real life routes may have trouble not going over the DPRK. Many originating in South Korea and operated by South Korean Airlines.
Great Circle Mapper

And although not warzones per se (I would love to visit Baghdad and Tehran) I myself have flown the complete length of the Tigris and the Euphrates right through the middle of Iraq on probably 10+ occasions flying NCL-DXB and vice versa, but on one occasion we went right over Iran as far north as Tehran flying DXB-NCL and we then continued on course over Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia etc and on to Newcastle. The flights from Newcastle to Dubai and back also from experience fly over a very small portion of Syria pretty much every day (unless it makes a detour like we did).

On the other side I have flown over southern Iran, Pakistan and the disputed territories of Jammu and Kashmir and Tibet. I think (I may be wrong) but I think we just avoided Afghanistan. We would still only have been a kick in the arse off it though in our massive A380

Hmmm... Where else... I don't think we'll have strayed into any "hostile" airspace (Yemen, Somalia etc) on our way to Mauritius... We flew over Myanmar on DXB-BKK and flew over some iffy bits of Thailand on BKK-HKT but apart from that I think that's it...

OH! Of course, how could I forget, I often find myself flying over Newcastle, Gateshead and Sunderland in my little PA28 from Northumbria Flying School. I think "pant-****tingly scary" is the appropriate terminology for that, especially on derby day, an experience I am yet to enjoy.

But yeah, Apart from Syria, Afghanistan and the North East of England I wouldn't really class any of them as "warzones" I'd more class them as unstable territories, but I've never felt uneasy at all flying over any of them.

So to answer your question then, I don't think there are really any countries off limits, just maybe aircraft that aren't permitted to fly over certain countries. I.e you wont get a brand new shiny American Airlines 777 flying over North Korea or Afghanistan in the same way you wouldn't get an Air Koryo IL62 flying over the continental United States.

[John Hill]

Thanks Martin, I should expand on my interest in this matter. I have personally participated in ICAO and/or IATA projects to open the air spaces of North Korea, Afghanistan (Taleban era) and Iraq (immediately after the invasion) to civil air traffic, we installed air/ground comms, AFTN etc and others in the same project participated in necessary negotiations and the definitions of air routes etc. But that was in the closing years of the last century and I am now retired and I was just wondering what the situation is nowadays.

I think most passengers, and maybe some air crew, would be surprised at just who/what flies over A'stan and North Korea. I dont know about Iraq.

[dc9-32]

I flight plan over Iraq and Afghanistan on a regular basis. North Korea CAA used to reply to my messages but now don't

[P330]

Afghanistan

When flying from SE Asia (Singapore, Kuala Lumpur etc..) to Europe, you regularly route directly over Afghanistan. You can feel a little unsettled at first, but as EK said, it is pretty much routine and I've also flown over Iraq when routing to the Middle East.

One point I have found interesting is I can remember sitting on the tarmac at Kuala Lumpur a couple of times waiting to push back and the captain has come over the system and said we're holding for another 5 minutes because we cannot enter Afghanistan until XXXX. I don't know if this means flights are much more restrictive over such areas and you need to have a pre-determined slot to enter such airspace - maybe someone better informed could confirm.

[Andy_S]

I think use of Iraqi airspace by civil airlines is pretty routine these days; the last two return journeys I did between London and The Gulf were routed over Turkey, Kurdistan, Baghdad and Basra.

Flown over Afghanistan en-route to and from SE Asia more times than I can remember. Can't say I was remotely bothered.

I think that provided there's no direct threat or danger to civil aircraft, and that the local authorities are agreeable, there aren't too many places out of bounds.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I'm struggling to think why anyone would be concerned about flying over Afghanistan or Iraq at airline altitudes. What is the perceived threat? No high-level (hostile) SAM threat there as far as has been reported - and none even present in Afghanistan for decades surely?

Somalia? Yemen? Not war zones last time I looked, - low level surface insurgency hardly counts - and certainly not one that has ever contained a SAM threat in recent decades either (since Siad Barre at least - pre '92), let alone had the wherewithal or intent to use one.

NK? The potential is certainly there for a threat despite it too being far from a war zone, and utterly unpredictable to boot. I'm surprised NK airspace is even open to other nationalities. Or is it?

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by Agaricus bisporus

Somalia? Yemen? Not war zones last time I looked, - low level surface insurgency hardly counts

My feelings exactly. Not only do these guys not have the hardware to be a threat to civil aviation, they're much more interested in cutting eachothers throats on the ground than with traffic at 35,000 feet.

[wiggy]

P330

I don't know if this means flights are much more restrictive over such areas and you need to have a pre-determined slot to enter such airspace - maybe someone better informed could confirm.

Yep, there is indeed a slot system to meter to flow of aircraft into Afghan airspace from the east

Bay of Bengal Cooperative Air Traffic Flow Management System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[davidjohnson6]

What's the latest on flying over Syria ?

[John Hill]

Thanks for all the comments.

[EK77WNCL]

Your welcome John, would you be able to expand on the aircraft/airlines flying over the DPRK? I'd be interested to know.

Thanks
Martin

[PhilW1981]

What's the latest on flying over Syria ?

Something has changed in the past 18 months. I fly from MAN to DXB every 3 weeks and in the past we always used to fly over the North East corner. Now however we always route slightly further North and cross directly from Turkey into Iraqi airspace.

[John Hill]

Martin, I believe airlines who had expressed interest when the air space was opened in 1998 included Delta, Korean Air, Asia Airlines, United, Vladivostok Airlines, Aeroflot, Sakhalin Airlines and Singapore. But I dont know who flies over the DPRK now and I dont know which, if any airlines, fly over the land or just the ocean areas to the east of the peninsular.

In the case of Afghanistan when that airspace was opened during the Taleban era the six air routes each direction were fully occupied 24 hours of every day being almost all the traffic to and from Europe going to East Asia, India, Pakistan, Australia, NZ and everywhere else we used to call the East Indies.

BTW, I suppose Korea is a technically a "war zone" so long as the parties involved continue determined not to change the status quo.

[EK77WNCL]

Thanks a lot, as I showed on the great circle map, some airlines on certain routes may have trouble avoiding it.

[John Hill]

I wonder if FAA and Jepperson charts show anything for North Korea, except "There be dragons here"?

[787luton]

Koyro

Air koyro do fly over north Korea and you might find out more about your question here; Prohibited airspace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[787luton]

Cuba

I agree that most of the countries mentioned have more problems on the ground than in the air, however Cuba have shot down civilian aircraft entering their airspace in the past

[EK77WNCL]

Hahaha, I would not be surprised at all John, I must get my hands on one to check!

Thanks a lot 787luton, I wasn't aware cities such as Paris had such strict restrictions, must be difficult for some Le Bourget arrivals and departures, even if it is just central Paris.

[PAXboy]

I recall being in HKG in January 1991, bound for UK. The pre-departure announcement from the flight deck said, due to the [First] Gulf War, we would take the northerly route across the USSR (as then was). Normal route for that night would have been southerly Thailand/India/Gulf/Med.