Plymouth City Airport protected til 2021!
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punters don't actually want to go to/from an airport in the West Sussex countryside
Also, the figures you quote regarding bums on seats are somewhat dated. We know that since the 1970s/1980s the commercial aviation industry has grown hugely - fares have come down and traveller numbers have gone up. This can only be reflected by more patrons of any PLH - LON service.
I would be confident in a SEN service working out on ATR 42s, Dash 8-300s or Jetstream 31s/41s. Door-to-door from Plymouth would be 45 minutes check-in, 45 minute flight, 10 minutes to pick up luggage and then 52 minutes to Liverpool Street - total is 2h32m, compared to an average of 3h20m by train. Given that train fares aren't cheap (to say the least), this could probably work pretty well.
Last edited by Aero Mad; 26th Sep 2012 at 10:16.
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I'm not saying a 100 seater would be used on a London service - i'm mearly describing the potential a runway extension could serve in Plymouth with the type of destinations you could offer.
The Viable plan is to set up a Plymouth - Stansted & Plymouth - Manchester service using 2, 19 seat, Jetstream 32 aircraft.
Without the Newquay connection and the cost of landing fees at Gatwick, that route would certainly be Viable. Runway extension or no extension - Viable have the figures, the aviation experts who've been involved in aviation for years, both in Plymouth and Worldwide.
The Council quite rightly pointed out this week that we've got to stop living in the past and concentrate on the present and future.
The Viable plan is to set up a Plymouth - Stansted & Plymouth - Manchester service using 2, 19 seat, Jetstream 32 aircraft.
Without the Newquay connection and the cost of landing fees at Gatwick, that route would certainly be Viable. Runway extension or no extension - Viable have the figures, the aviation experts who've been involved in aviation for years, both in Plymouth and Worldwide.
The Council quite rightly pointed out this week that we've got to stop living in the past and concentrate on the present and future.
Last edited by PlymouthPixie; 26th Sep 2012 at 11:24.
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AeroMad,
The punters that normally take flights normally take flights to, as near as damn it, their final destination, very few take a flight first to then connect with a train, a bus, a boat or whatever.
Don't get me wrong, having grown up in Croydon LGW is not only in my old stomping ground but my commercial aviation career commenced at LGW back in the 70's so, if anything, I've got a soft spot for the old place but LGW simply doesn't provide the connections LHR does so to/from LGW is would neccesitate a coach around the M25 wkith journey times often oimpossible to predict, the coach might be scheduled as 1hr 15mins but best allow 3hrs!
Pixie,
As with my previous career and soft spot for LGW in a previous life I also had a career at PLH, I have many fond memories of times at PLH not forgetting the early evening cricket matches whereas the old runway 06/24 served as the 4/6 boundary and the controller would wave from his pink control tower if we needed to stop hitting balls across the runway due to an inbound aircraft.
PLH/MAN should work because MAN is the UK's 2nd airport for business connections, punters can route PLH/MAN to connect with the mainstream carriers worldwide, far moreso than they can from LGW.
But STN ..... Nope, punters would be flying over London to reach Bishops Stortford Regional Airport, unless they are connecting with a LoCo they'd then need to catch a coach or a less than fast train in to London, then if they're continuing their journey by air they need to, invariably, get across to LHR by whatever means.
There is such a thing as the 'buggeration factor' whereas a punter calculates costs versus times etc. to/from PLH and LHR before deciding "Bugger it, I'll take a hire car, a train or a coach, it simply isn't worth all the buggering around".
A LON service needs to be to/from LHR but with slots literally impossible to come by then it's not going to happen.
The punters that normally take flights normally take flights to, as near as damn it, their final destination, very few take a flight first to then connect with a train, a bus, a boat or whatever.
Don't get me wrong, having grown up in Croydon LGW is not only in my old stomping ground but my commercial aviation career commenced at LGW back in the 70's so, if anything, I've got a soft spot for the old place but LGW simply doesn't provide the connections LHR does so to/from LGW is would neccesitate a coach around the M25 wkith journey times often oimpossible to predict, the coach might be scheduled as 1hr 15mins but best allow 3hrs!
Pixie,
As with my previous career and soft spot for LGW in a previous life I also had a career at PLH, I have many fond memories of times at PLH not forgetting the early evening cricket matches whereas the old runway 06/24 served as the 4/6 boundary and the controller would wave from his pink control tower if we needed to stop hitting balls across the runway due to an inbound aircraft.
PLH/MAN should work because MAN is the UK's 2nd airport for business connections, punters can route PLH/MAN to connect with the mainstream carriers worldwide, far moreso than they can from LGW.
But STN ..... Nope, punters would be flying over London to reach Bishops Stortford Regional Airport, unless they are connecting with a LoCo they'd then need to catch a coach or a less than fast train in to London, then if they're continuing their journey by air they need to, invariably, get across to LHR by whatever means.
There is such a thing as the 'buggeration factor' whereas a punter calculates costs versus times etc. to/from PLH and LHR before deciding "Bugger it, I'll take a hire car, a train or a coach, it simply isn't worth all the buggering around".
A LON service needs to be to/from LHR but with slots literally impossible to come by then it's not going to happen.
I tend to agree with Phileas and cannot see either STN or SEN cutting the mustard as a LON arrival point. Most travellers will surely continue to use the train from Plymouth if anywhere in Greater London is their final destination. Getting from either STN or SEN to LHR for onward connections is a total non-starter and there is absolutely no chance of getting LHR slots.
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PLH-NHT?
Quote: "A LON service needs to be to/from LHR but with slots literally impossible to come by then it's not going to happen."
Exactly, another reason why LHR needs more rwy capacity! It is vitally important for smaller UK airports to have adequate connectivity with LHR, indeed, their viability can depend on it (MME for example).
In the absence of LHR expansion, NHT could be used for non-trunk domestic routes. It would, of course, need an efficient surface link (non-stop bus?) link to LHR.
With its already excellent links to London, no-frills and charter business could operate out of NHT as well, making it a viable small regional airport in its own right, rather than the barmy idea of it being LHR's "third rwy".
Good luck PLH, hope it goes well!
Exactly, another reason why LHR needs more rwy capacity! It is vitally important for smaller UK airports to have adequate connectivity with LHR, indeed, their viability can depend on it (MME for example).
In the absence of LHR expansion, NHT could be used for non-trunk domestic routes. It would, of course, need an efficient surface link (non-stop bus?) link to LHR.
With its already excellent links to London, no-frills and charter business could operate out of NHT as well, making it a viable small regional airport in its own right, rather than the barmy idea of it being LHR's "third rwy".
Good luck PLH, hope it goes well!
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 26th Sep 2012 at 11:28. Reason: typo
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Yes robin, most certainly GA, the conversation here has always been around the commercial aspect, so lets shed a little light on other aspects.
Plymouth Airport isn't just a necessity for commercial services, does it need them? Ofcourse it does, but there's a variety of other factors at play here which, in the not to distant future could cause Plymouth to take a rapid down turn.
For many years, the airport has housed the FOST section of the Royal Navy in Plymouth, using 2 Dauphins to provide ship to shore movements with near 25 flights a day. As a consequnce, FOST has had to relocate Newquay meaning that staff and pilots face a 50minute trip to pick up the chopper, before flying back to HMS Raleigh to pick up the personnel. FOST is currently on the barebones of operation, with many staff having left to find alternative employment, the FOST flying unit won't keep going, as it is for much longer.
FOST overall, aside from the flying section is a huge part of the dockyard and without it would face yet another nail in the coffin and yet another reason to close down and move operations to pompy.
Devon and Cornwall Air Ambulance/Police has said closure of the airport will place restrictions on its operations around Derriford which is now the major trauma centre for the South West. Night flights has become impossible as will landings while the helipad is occupied and helicopters will no longer be able to refuel near Derriford or receive METARS local weather information.
Search and Rescue helicopters make use of the Airport. It is the only suitable local facility for the large rescue helicopters. These are vital for divers suffering from decompression and makes hyperbaric operations at Derriford more difficult, so far there have been several cases where divers have been flown to Poole late at night after 30 minutes of searching for a suitable landing site in Plymouth.
Transplant organs are regularly flown into Plymouth by fixed wing for operations at Derriford. Rail and road do not offer the same ability to get organs here from as far away as Scotland, this has ceased since the closure of the airport.
Plymouth has had an active Flying school here for many years training pilots and opening aviation to many. This is all part of the quality of life offering from Plymouth.
Aviation engineering services have employed people at Plymouth for decades. Plymouth offers a good low cost competitive venue to attract new businesses.
General Aviation is a large user of Plymouth bringing with it users of hotels, restaurants, bars and the marinas. The loss of this community and facility would reduce Plymouth's attraction to many interested in the South West.
Plymouth Airport isn't just a necessity for commercial services, does it need them? Ofcourse it does, but there's a variety of other factors at play here which, in the not to distant future could cause Plymouth to take a rapid down turn.
For many years, the airport has housed the FOST section of the Royal Navy in Plymouth, using 2 Dauphins to provide ship to shore movements with near 25 flights a day. As a consequnce, FOST has had to relocate Newquay meaning that staff and pilots face a 50minute trip to pick up the chopper, before flying back to HMS Raleigh to pick up the personnel. FOST is currently on the barebones of operation, with many staff having left to find alternative employment, the FOST flying unit won't keep going, as it is for much longer.
FOST overall, aside from the flying section is a huge part of the dockyard and without it would face yet another nail in the coffin and yet another reason to close down and move operations to pompy.
Devon and Cornwall Air Ambulance/Police has said closure of the airport will place restrictions on its operations around Derriford which is now the major trauma centre for the South West. Night flights has become impossible as will landings while the helipad is occupied and helicopters will no longer be able to refuel near Derriford or receive METARS local weather information.
Search and Rescue helicopters make use of the Airport. It is the only suitable local facility for the large rescue helicopters. These are vital for divers suffering from decompression and makes hyperbaric operations at Derriford more difficult, so far there have been several cases where divers have been flown to Poole late at night after 30 minutes of searching for a suitable landing site in Plymouth.
Transplant organs are regularly flown into Plymouth by fixed wing for operations at Derriford. Rail and road do not offer the same ability to get organs here from as far away as Scotland, this has ceased since the closure of the airport.
Plymouth has had an active Flying school here for many years training pilots and opening aviation to many. This is all part of the quality of life offering from Plymouth.
Aviation engineering services have employed people at Plymouth for decades. Plymouth offers a good low cost competitive venue to attract new businesses.
General Aviation is a large user of Plymouth bringing with it users of hotels, restaurants, bars and the marinas. The loss of this community and facility would reduce Plymouth's attraction to many interested in the South West.
Last edited by PlymouthPixie; 26th Sep 2012 at 11:46. Reason: grammar
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Quite. And as an ex-user of the airfield to visit family and friends, I'd certainly like to do so again as soon as possible.
It doesn't need a lot of infrastructure, just for the owners/operators to say yes. It doesn't even need to be licenced reducing the operating costs, but the sooner this happens the sooner the message will get out that the airfield is back in business.
It doesn't need a lot of infrastructure, just for the owners/operators to say yes. It doesn't even need to be licenced reducing the operating costs, but the sooner this happens the sooner the message will get out that the airfield is back in business.
Last edited by robin; 26th Sep 2012 at 12:19.
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Mr Fogg wrote:-
"And in the days when PLH had direct services to/from LGW the route was operated by a DHC6 and with average load factors of some 50-60%, 10-12 punters per 20 seater aircraft.
The successful route was NQY to/from LHR operated by a HPR7 with average load factors of some 70%, 35 punters per 50 seater aircraft, "
you know neither of those numbers looks like the basis for a successful commercial operation
the train to London takes 3 - 3.5 hours - you don't save any time by plane & the hassle is awful - unless you are interconnecting
Even then either the bus from Reading or the Express from Paddington to LHR are relatively easy add-ons
"And in the days when PLH had direct services to/from LGW the route was operated by a DHC6 and with average load factors of some 50-60%, 10-12 punters per 20 seater aircraft.
The successful route was NQY to/from LHR operated by a HPR7 with average load factors of some 70%, 35 punters per 50 seater aircraft, "
you know neither of those numbers looks like the basis for a successful commercial operation
the train to London takes 3 - 3.5 hours - you don't save any time by plane & the hassle is awful - unless you are interconnecting
Even then either the bus from Reading or the Express from Paddington to LHR are relatively easy add-ons
Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 26th Sep 2012 at 14:11.
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Heathrow Harry, I refer you to post #22 where I have already addressed these points in some detail. There is a significant time-saving, and the guarantee of a seat on the service! The trains are reasonably expensive, take longer and are often overcrowded. I remain confident that there would be demand for a service from Plymouth to London
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HH,
Precisely, the DHC6 LGW service barely paid for itself and once Air UK pulled off the EXT/LGW route Brymon jumped at the opportunity to operate PLH/EXT/LGW picking up/dropping off a mere 2 or 3 pax in EXT on the way thru.
The NQY/LHR HPR7 route was profit making, 70% (ish) load factors on those kind of airfares was a good load factor, BMA had operated the HPR7 route before Brymon, alas Brymon part exchanged the HPR7 towards the purchase of 4 DHC7's (2 for ABZ, 1 for PLH and 1 for NQY), PLH and NQY services were only supposed to be combined for one season and until the 4th DHC7 arrived but the 4th DHC7 never did arrive and services remained combined for nigh on the next 30 years!
Precisely, the DHC6 LGW service barely paid for itself and once Air UK pulled off the EXT/LGW route Brymon jumped at the opportunity to operate PLH/EXT/LGW picking up/dropping off a mere 2 or 3 pax in EXT on the way thru.
The NQY/LHR HPR7 route was profit making, 70% (ish) load factors on those kind of airfares was a good load factor, BMA had operated the HPR7 route before Brymon, alas Brymon part exchanged the HPR7 towards the purchase of 4 DHC7's (2 for ABZ, 1 for PLH and 1 for NQY), PLH and NQY services were only supposed to be combined for one season and until the 4th DHC7 arrived but the 4th DHC7 never did arrive and services remained combined for nigh on the next 30 years!
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When comparing the train with flying on business trips, especially day returns an important factor and advantage of the train is that if a meeting or your day over runs there is normally a later one.
I have done a lot of research on this, although the journey may be a little longer many business travellers also feel they can work on the train which they cannot on a short flight.
It isn't quite as simple as just comparing journey times and a few pounds on the cost.
I have done a lot of research on this, although the journey may be a little longer many business travellers also feel they can work on the train which they cannot on a short flight.
It isn't quite as simple as just comparing journey times and a few pounds on the cost.
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People here saying the airport cant support air services? Well if the airport was in 2009 UK's Fastest growing airport and merely a year later becomes unviable then something is up. The problem with Air Southwest was that they combined and restricted the number of seats, i recall people saying "well your sat around and stop in newquay for half an hour" its easier to go to Exeter.
The Glasgow, Manchester and London routes were really popular. And the reason they didn't attract more people over the years is because they started putting the price up. I have also heard reports of SHH actually refusing Landing slots to airlines but i am not sure whether this is true or not.
Aer Araan said with an expanded runway they would operate from the airport, however this was back in 2008/9.
Was the combinabtion with NQY actually something to do with Fuel Load?
The Glasgow, Manchester and London routes were really popular. And the reason they didn't attract more people over the years is because they started putting the price up. I have also heard reports of SHH actually refusing Landing slots to airlines but i am not sure whether this is true or not.
Aer Araan said with an expanded runway they would operate from the airport, however this was back in 2008/9.
Was the combinabtion with NQY actually something to do with Fuel Load?
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I have also heard reports of SHH actually refusing Landing slots to airlines but i am not sure whether this is true or not.
I understand great hate in spotters for SHH but please, no need for "BS rumours" for the sake of damaging a company.
Last edited by JSCL; 26th Sep 2012 at 20:33.
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Certainly Plymouth had a bit of a reputation amongst GA for being a bit above themselves. It was never a welcoming destination, and the security was seriously over the top.
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If PLH can be reborn for everything but CA, then good luck to them, but our experience here suggests it is needed, not just because of the handling fees, but also due to increase fuel uplift, and the major add-ons like parking, even a hotel was talked of here (now getting nearby as part of other development).
As for commercial? I seriously think you are pushing it, but I wish you lujck.
Two big killers - firstly, double dip APD really hurts in the pockets of the discretionary travellers you need to fill the seats, and this is before you consider an additional user fee (NQY style).
Secondly, as groundhog has already pointed out, the train is always going to win hands down on frequency, and sheer number of seats.
Comparing walk up rail fares, used by 2% of pax, with air is simply not telling the whole picture. It is also untrue to say you won't get a seat. There are numerous ways regular rail passengers will use to get a seat virtually every time, and for the higher yielding pax you'd need to attract, this includes going first class, aswell as reserving ahead. Not to forget that most trains to London get busier as they approach the capital - so board at Plymouth and you should get a seat, in the unlikely event you don't, stand in the middle of the carriage until Exeter where there is always some offload.
Given the way the modern aviation system works, most people will prefer to be treated like cattle on a busy train, knowing they can turn up most times of day, rather than go through airport screening for a cattle class airline seat on flights which realistically won't be operating more than 3x daily rotations.
That really is a very small difference. People tend to lock in to the fastest times, in this case 3h dead on, so even if the distance is less, we're talking similar times to Paris-Marseille, where the train still wins the lion's share of the market, despite going against a shuttle service that offers more departures in an hour than this route will in a day, and which offers global connections through CDG.
And who have been brought on to make the case, so they'll play the best hand. I suggest that between the various commentators on this thread, there is more than enough expertise to say that PLH as a commercial airport is distinctly un-VIABLE.
Look how even NQY is struggling today, despite being up against a FAR worse rail service. What yields are the airlines getting at NQY? Is NQY even really viable?
One final thing to remember if you don't want to take what myself and others here are saying. Take a trip into Paddington, then pop over to Euston. What difference do you notice between the two train types - (not the superficial difference in age / traction)?
Now come back and tell me that yields for a PLH to London Parkway Airport service will still be viable.
As for commercial? I seriously think you are pushing it, but I wish you lujck.
Two big killers - firstly, double dip APD really hurts in the pockets of the discretionary travellers you need to fill the seats, and this is before you consider an additional user fee (NQY style).
Secondly, as groundhog has already pointed out, the train is always going to win hands down on frequency, and sheer number of seats.
Comparing walk up rail fares, used by 2% of pax, with air is simply not telling the whole picture. It is also untrue to say you won't get a seat. There are numerous ways regular rail passengers will use to get a seat virtually every time, and for the higher yielding pax you'd need to attract, this includes going first class, aswell as reserving ahead. Not to forget that most trains to London get busier as they approach the capital - so board at Plymouth and you should get a seat, in the unlikely event you don't, stand in the middle of the carriage until Exeter where there is always some offload.
Given the way the modern aviation system works, most people will prefer to be treated like cattle on a busy train, knowing they can turn up most times of day, rather than go through airport screening for a cattle class airline seat on flights which realistically won't be operating more than 3x daily rotations.
total is 2h32m, compared to an average of 3h20m by train
Viable have the figures, the aviation experts who've been involved in aviation for years, both in Plymouth and Worldwide.
The successful route was NQY to/from LHR operated by a HPR7 with average load factors of some 70%
One final thing to remember if you don't want to take what myself and others here are saying. Take a trip into Paddington, then pop over to Euston. What difference do you notice between the two train types - (not the superficial difference in age / traction)?
Now come back and tell me that yields for a PLH to London Parkway Airport service will still be viable.
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As a general point, I am just not convinced by some of the numbers used by the pro-PLH campaigners. Again, this is not having a pop at anyone, but airline economics is my business and I would find the argument for Plymouth much more convincing if it were based on a sounder economic case. For example, here's an analysis by VIABLE from a couple of months back which purports to show that a £10 Airport Development Fee would have made PLH profitable. The problem is that they assume that increasing the cost of a flight by £10 has zero impact on demand, i.e. that demand for air travel to/from Plymouth is completely price-inelastic. Hmm.
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which purports to show that a £10 Airport Development Fee would have made PLH profitable. The problem is that they assume that increasing the cost of a flight by £10 has zero impact on demand, i.e. that demand for air travel to/from Plymouth is completely price-inelastic
Now the starter fare to Paddington is just £13 - £3 more than the user fee, which is on top of the PSC and APD, all being vatable if the Lib Dem MPs that might say they back the airport get their way.
Now NQY is a totally different ball game - the earliest and fastest train still takes just over 5hrs, arriving after 3pm, great for a day's business! And NQY still struggles!