New London west airport
It is about maintaining London and indeed Englands global competitiveness. And thats true even if all the jobs at the airport are filled by natives of Burkina Fasa or where-ever.
if you want your children to be unemployed or have no chance of a serious high level high quality job keep on complaining because no big airport for London means no big bucks and much as I dislike the unequal distribution of those bucks we are better off having them shared out here than France or Holland or Germany
if you want your children to be unemployed or have no chance of a serious high level high quality job keep on complaining because no big airport for London means no big bucks and much as I dislike the unequal distribution of those bucks we are better off having them shared out here than France or Holland or Germany
The idea that needing Heathrow with 100 million passengers per year will make UK super competitive is a complete nonsense.
Multinationals bosses not really that worried because why bother with Heathrow when you can use Netjets to a smaller aiport where it doesn't take hours in and out especially when your production facility is nowhere near.
In business it is called "maintaining market share", and aviation is a business, not a public service.
As for Market share....................thats a nonsense.
Last edited by racedo; 2nd Sep 2012 at 19:11.
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racedo
Billions spent by private firms that will payback into the public purse through job creation etc.
You either live on a different planet, or have nothing to do with the industry if you think that the UK's aviation capacity is adequate at this moment in time.
Billions spent by private firms that will payback into the public purse through job creation etc.
You either live on a different planet, or have nothing to do with the industry if you think that the UK's aviation capacity is adequate at this moment in time.
Danny,
The Liberal Dumocrats are on to it already. They want to rule out a third runway at Heathrow, and expansion of Gatwick and Stansted. What does that leave? Good old Luton!
PS Don't tell Ms Greening.
The Liberal Dumocrats are on to it already. They want to rule out a third runway at Heathrow, and expansion of Gatwick and Stansted. What does that leave? Good old Luton!
PS Don't tell Ms Greening.
racedo
its not about the bosses its the thousnds of travellign business people who fill the seats on BA EAsy jet and Virgin plus USA AA etc every day.
if easy access for people on this scale is no longer possible-and frankly it is marginal now - companies will move or will choose to do business elsewehere.
As for your arguments on payback-who does a simialr calulation ona road railway line or hospital-no one. They are essential infrastructure and do not and cannot generate a direct payback but if you dont have them you dont have much of a society.
Its not ideal another LHR runway but it is the best option-i will not cause much more polution than today due to ever quieter and lower emission aircraft engines and a third runway approach paths touch surprisingly few people and with little coloateral impact seeing as all the construction is taking place next to an existing airport so envirnmental damage is very limited.
You have your right to an opinion of course but I think you are of the mark on this one
its not about the bosses its the thousnds of travellign business people who fill the seats on BA EAsy jet and Virgin plus USA AA etc every day.
if easy access for people on this scale is no longer possible-and frankly it is marginal now - companies will move or will choose to do business elsewehere.
As for your arguments on payback-who does a simialr calulation ona road railway line or hospital-no one. They are essential infrastructure and do not and cannot generate a direct payback but if you dont have them you dont have much of a society.
Its not ideal another LHR runway but it is the best option-i will not cause much more polution than today due to ever quieter and lower emission aircraft engines and a third runway approach paths touch surprisingly few people and with little coloateral impact seeing as all the construction is taking place next to an existing airport so envirnmental damage is very limited.
You have your right to an opinion of course but I think you are of the mark on this one
Multinationals bosses not really that worried because why bother with Heathrow when you can use Netjets to a smaller aiport where it doesn't take hours in and out especially when your production facility is nowhere near.
Stuff the middle management, the salesmen and the entrepreneurs who do the spadework and put the deals together to win export business, except that they can't get to their markets any longer because the routes were only profitable with those transfer pax.
Billions spent by private firms that will payback into the public purse through job creation etc.
You either live on a different planet, or have nothing to do with the industry if you think that the UK's aviation capacity is adequate at this moment in time.
You either live on a different planet, or have nothing to do with the industry if you think that the UK's aviation capacity is adequate at this moment in time.
There are no banks out there willing to lend billions to build an airport in London.
The myth it will payback billions to the taxpayer is a myth.
Taxpayer will have to fund billions in infrastructure with no hope of getting anything in return this shy of 2050.
its not about the bosses its the thousnds of travellign business people who fill the seats on BA EAsy jet and Virgin plus USA AA etc every day.
if easy access for people on this scale is no longer possible-and frankly it is marginal now - companies will move or will choose to do business elsewehere.
if easy access for people on this scale is no longer possible-and frankly it is marginal now - companies will move or will choose to do business elsewehere.
Claiming the fact is stating that the North of England, Scotland and Wales have no business that deals with overseas because LHR has reached capacity.
As for your arguments on payback-who does a simialr calulation ona road railway line or hospital-no one. They are essential infrastructure and do not and cannot generate a direct payback but if you dont have them you dont have much of a society.
There is a real difference between providing services for population who live there and those who fly especially from another part of EU or US and pay no tax to UK so BA / Virgin / AA have profitable routes.
Its not ideal another LHR runway but it is the best option-i will not cause much more polution than today due to ever quieter and lower emission aircraft engines and a third runway approach paths touch surprisingly few people and with little coloateral impact seeing as all the construction is taking place next to an existing airport so envirnmental damage is very limited.
You have your right to an opinion of course but I think you are of the mark on this one
You have your right to an opinion of course but I think you are of the mark on this one
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This is one of the oldest tricks in the book.
How do you reduce opposition to Bad Thing Number 1? You say "OK, we've listened and as a result of the opposition to it,we won't do Bad Thing Number 1, we'll instead do Even Worse Thing Number 2".
Suddenly Bad Thing Number 1 is not quite so bad after all.
How do you reduce opposition to Bad Thing Number 1? You say "OK, we've listened and as a result of the opposition to it,we won't do Bad Thing Number 1, we'll instead do Even Worse Thing Number 2".
Suddenly Bad Thing Number 1 is not quite so bad after all.
Many people misunderstand the concept of a Hub airport. They call for expansion of regional airports. This is missing the point. Regional airports will expand anyway. There is a potential for smaller competitive Hubs in the regions. But we need to develop and modernise our main Hub, or get left behind in the global economy.
London is one of the great 'World Cities'. It needs a 24hr world class airport with sufficient capacity.
Whether it is a new airport, or a redevelopment of LHR. It needs to be done.
London is one of the great 'World Cities'. It needs a 24hr world class airport with sufficient capacity.
Whether it is a new airport, or a redevelopment of LHR. It needs to be done.
Apart from the inexplicable reference to some place called "Dyce", wherever that is (it's actually the original name of what is now Aberdeen Airport).
Of course nothing in the video is specific to Heathrow, it would apply to UK plc's hub wherever that ends up being located.
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So it's a problem, in a nutshell, if much of the air and noise pollution goes abroad?
It's good to have racedo put the opposite viewpoint. Not because I agree with him, but because he represents a very common perspective among people outside our industry.
There is a very strong public opinion growing. Anti-business, anti-globalisation, anti-capitalism and sometime completely anti-development. Many people are questioning the whole concept of economic growth and the profit motive. There is a backlash against the 'greedy' rich. Especially bankers. There is a strong feeling of conspiracy involving bankers, politicians and big business.
I don't think racedo is approaching from this direction, but he questions the economic need for a large Hub airport.
There is a very strong public opinion growing. Anti-business, anti-globalisation, anti-capitalism and sometime completely anti-development. Many people are questioning the whole concept of economic growth and the profit motive. There is a backlash against the 'greedy' rich. Especially bankers. There is a strong feeling of conspiracy involving bankers, politicians and big business.
I don't think racedo is approaching from this direction, but he questions the economic need for a large Hub airport.
People do not oppose progress but people question unfettered development with no rhyme or reason when the benefit is never going to be felt except some foreign transit passengers.
I also oppose HS2 because I see massive spending with little benefit to many.
Coming up with the standard "oh you don't understand aviation" pretty much ensures opposition because you then telling people to spend billions and trust us !!!!!!!!
I asked a reasonable question about how much was it physicallly worth to UK but nobody seems to know about this apart from rhetoric.
Telling me it will protect jobs or create them and taxpayer will benefit from some tax sounds great but so will a war...............
I'll have a go
Britain while a former manufacturing centre has closed many of its factories and our economy, for better or worse, now relies on the service sector and being a centre for trade and large global corporations having their European HQ in the UK. Yes, that ultimately means as money or goods pass through the London, our job is to take a small cut as a fee or commission, and then pass it on, incentivising other participants to keep the number of trade centres to a minimum. There is no significant Mittelstand to the extent that it exists in Germany.
An economy dependent on services and being a regional centre for megacorporations and trade relies on good connectivity with the rest of the world. Without that high level of connectivity, large corporations and the high paying jobs tend to migrate to places which are more suitable to their needs (namely Europe wide rather than just UK).
Chongquing in western China has a population of 7 million, but about 28 million if you include the urbanised suburbs. Yes, 28 million people. Chongquing airport in 2011 had 19 million passengers. China Southen and China Eastern both have substantial operations at Chongquing airport. There are currently no direct passenger links between Chongquing airport and a European airport, but there is already likely pent-up demand for a direct flight.
As Europe's regional trade centre, Heathrow is the obvious candidate for a route to Chongquing, but it's full, so Hainan Airlines are instead looking to a route to Paris CDG. The result is that all Chongquing trade is heavily based to go via Paris for the next few years, and London loses a bit of its sheen as Europe's trade centre.
Now do the same thing with Chengdu, Wuhan, Shenyang, Guangzhou, Xiamen, Kunming, Nanjing, Xian, Hangzhou, Changsha, Dalian and Qingdao and give some of the soon-to-be-needed Shanghai frequencies to Frankfurt. The result is that for Europe-China trade, the centre becomes somewhere other than London, and we end up with rather less substance to our claim of being a trade centre.
Rotterdam as the world's 3nd busiest port (recently trumped by Shanghai and Singapore) makes its money from being a transit centre for shipping of bulk goods throughout Europe. Much of the volume sent through Rotterdam is not intended for the Netherlands - it's all about being a European hub for shipping for subsequent distribution elsewhere. Their port is enormous and not a pretty sight with a significant environmental impact from the oil refineries built to be near a major port, but it keeps Rotterdam busy and ensures the Netherlands a place as a major distribution centre in the world. Rotterdam has 5 refineries, equivalent to over 80% of total UK oil refining capacity. If you want to import or export goods from Europe to the world on a regular basis, you have to be in Rotterdam just to get the frequency of shipping for container movement. An example is a Dutch court recently imposing restrictions on Samsung's new Android tablet device effectively causes huge damage to Samsung's European supply chain.
If trade migrates away from London to a sufficient degree, our claim of being a trade centre starts to look like the Emperor's new clothes, and megacorporations act accordingly.
The UK's economy needs global commerce to see London as the European centre for trade. If they don't, our future is stuffed
Britain while a former manufacturing centre has closed many of its factories and our economy, for better or worse, now relies on the service sector and being a centre for trade and large global corporations having their European HQ in the UK. Yes, that ultimately means as money or goods pass through the London, our job is to take a small cut as a fee or commission, and then pass it on, incentivising other participants to keep the number of trade centres to a minimum. There is no significant Mittelstand to the extent that it exists in Germany.
An economy dependent on services and being a regional centre for megacorporations and trade relies on good connectivity with the rest of the world. Without that high level of connectivity, large corporations and the high paying jobs tend to migrate to places which are more suitable to their needs (namely Europe wide rather than just UK).
Chongquing in western China has a population of 7 million, but about 28 million if you include the urbanised suburbs. Yes, 28 million people. Chongquing airport in 2011 had 19 million passengers. China Southen and China Eastern both have substantial operations at Chongquing airport. There are currently no direct passenger links between Chongquing airport and a European airport, but there is already likely pent-up demand for a direct flight.
As Europe's regional trade centre, Heathrow is the obvious candidate for a route to Chongquing, but it's full, so Hainan Airlines are instead looking to a route to Paris CDG. The result is that all Chongquing trade is heavily based to go via Paris for the next few years, and London loses a bit of its sheen as Europe's trade centre.
Now do the same thing with Chengdu, Wuhan, Shenyang, Guangzhou, Xiamen, Kunming, Nanjing, Xian, Hangzhou, Changsha, Dalian and Qingdao and give some of the soon-to-be-needed Shanghai frequencies to Frankfurt. The result is that for Europe-China trade, the centre becomes somewhere other than London, and we end up with rather less substance to our claim of being a trade centre.
Rotterdam as the world's 3nd busiest port (recently trumped by Shanghai and Singapore) makes its money from being a transit centre for shipping of bulk goods throughout Europe. Much of the volume sent through Rotterdam is not intended for the Netherlands - it's all about being a European hub for shipping for subsequent distribution elsewhere. Their port is enormous and not a pretty sight with a significant environmental impact from the oil refineries built to be near a major port, but it keeps Rotterdam busy and ensures the Netherlands a place as a major distribution centre in the world. Rotterdam has 5 refineries, equivalent to over 80% of total UK oil refining capacity. If you want to import or export goods from Europe to the world on a regular basis, you have to be in Rotterdam just to get the frequency of shipping for container movement. An example is a Dutch court recently imposing restrictions on Samsung's new Android tablet device effectively causes huge damage to Samsung's European supply chain.
If trade migrates away from London to a sufficient degree, our claim of being a trade centre starts to look like the Emperor's new clothes, and megacorporations act accordingly.
The UK's economy needs global commerce to see London as the European centre for trade. If they don't, our future is stuffed
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 3rd Sep 2012 at 01:10.
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Whilst GB likes to maintain it's famous (throughout Europe) "Island Mentality" GB/UK is actually in the EU these days, and has been for quite some time, and UK nationals have the rights to live and work throughout the EU.
Geography is against the south of England on this one, where to build a mega airport whilst minimising impact upon a local environment whereas the likes of France, Netherlands, Germany etc. have more wide and open spaces to construct such a mega airport, why not let a mega EU airport go to the close continent and then many a Brit could go and work there?
Oh, but then we'll have the nay sayers:
But we want to stay at home and not work away from our home domicile ..... Well best find a career outside of transport then, or:
But UK will lose so much in taxes ..... Which UK only wastes such as the £8bn+ it wasted on the Nimrod programme, the money it's wasting sailing an aircraft carrier around with no fixed wing aircraft to put upon or the money UK wastes fighting wars upon behalf of USA, or:
But we don't speak French, Dutch, German etc. ..... What do you call a person that speaks two languages ..... bilingual, what do you call a person who only speaks one language ..... English
Geography is against the south of England on this one, where to build a mega airport whilst minimising impact upon a local environment whereas the likes of France, Netherlands, Germany etc. have more wide and open spaces to construct such a mega airport, why not let a mega EU airport go to the close continent and then many a Brit could go and work there?
Oh, but then we'll have the nay sayers:
But we want to stay at home and not work away from our home domicile ..... Well best find a career outside of transport then, or:
But UK will lose so much in taxes ..... Which UK only wastes such as the £8bn+ it wasted on the Nimrod programme, the money it's wasting sailing an aircraft carrier around with no fixed wing aircraft to put upon or the money UK wastes fighting wars upon behalf of USA, or:
But we don't speak French, Dutch, German etc. ..... What do you call a person that speaks two languages ..... bilingual, what do you call a person who only speaks one language ..... English
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Excellent analysis, davidjohnson6!
Quote: "What do you call a person that speaks two languages ..... bilingual, what do you call a person who only speaks one language ..... English"
Always thought that the answer is: "American". Ho hum.
Quote: "This is one of the oldest tricks in the book.
How do you reduce opposition to Bad Thing Number 1? You say "OK, we've listened and as a result of the opposition to it,we won't do Bad Thing Number 1, we'll instead do Even Worse Thing Number 2".
Suddenly Bad Thing Number 1 is not quite so bad after all."
Indeed, allude to the idea of permanent all-day mixed mode operations at LHR as the only way to increase capacity (but not address delays) if there are to be no new rwys.
This means that flightpath residents lose their daily half-day of no planes overhead.
This concentrates minds, and 1 or 2 more rwys doesn't sound so bad after all, provided that segregated mode and alternation is retained.
Quote: "What do you call a person that speaks two languages ..... bilingual, what do you call a person who only speaks one language ..... English"
Always thought that the answer is: "American". Ho hum.
Quote: "This is one of the oldest tricks in the book.
How do you reduce opposition to Bad Thing Number 1? You say "OK, we've listened and as a result of the opposition to it,we won't do Bad Thing Number 1, we'll instead do Even Worse Thing Number 2".
Suddenly Bad Thing Number 1 is not quite so bad after all."
Indeed, allude to the idea of permanent all-day mixed mode operations at LHR as the only way to increase capacity (but not address delays) if there are to be no new rwys.
This means that flightpath residents lose their daily half-day of no planes overhead.
This concentrates minds, and 1 or 2 more rwys doesn't sound so bad after all, provided that segregated mode and alternation is retained.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 3rd Sep 2012 at 00:17.
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As for your arguments on payback-who does a simialr calulation ona road railway line or hospital-no one.
Any development at LHR would be covered by private funds, with a proven market already there. As discussed ad infinitum on the Boris Island thread, there is no mechanism to ensure the commercial viability of this new airport, as LHR would have to close to make it work.
A Sunday Express poll reveals voters are just about equally divided over where a new hub airport should be located, though Birmingham Airport narrowly topped the poll.
As for the comment about noise and polution-get real please , aircraft are a negligable source of polution in both CO2 and Noise compared to road traffic-are you advocating a return toa stone age economy?
You either live on a different planet, or have nothing to do with the industry if you think that the UK's aviation capacity is adequate at this moment in time.
There is also the argument that aviation leads to more tourist spending outside the UK than it brings in through visitors.
How does all this balance out? I've yet to read a balanced crystal ball article which covers all those issues and makes a long term projection. However, BAA clearly take the view that they can make a return on their investment, and how many of us here can genuinely say we have the figures and the research to counter-act their optimism?
As Europe's regional trade centre, Heathrow is the obvious candidate for a route to Chongquing
Now do the same thing with Chengdu, Wuhan, Shenyang, Guangzhou, Xiamen, Kunming, Nanjing, Xian, Hangzhou
As for the others, they can all have access to London if they want it badly enough. Either BA decide that a new route to this cities is a top priority (rather than, say, Zagreb or Seoul), or the respective airline that has a hub in that city accepts a route to Gatwick.
So will London get "left behind", when London, with its 6+ airports is already still well ahead? No it won't, but Heathrow misses out on the transfer traffic, which in turn makes more routes there more viable and pushes out the thinner routes to Gatwick and elsewhere.
This should ensure that the business case for a third runway at Heathrow remains strong, and that it remains a net gain to the UK economy. The noise problem still won't go away any time soon.
Paxing All Over The World
ETOPS
Ahhh, you presume that there IS such a thing as 'UK aviation planning'? 
What a quaint thought that is.
davidjohnson6
racedo I thibk it is helpful for you to have put the opposition case in a logical and calm manner. One area of jobs that depends on LHR to a very great extent is called the M4 corridor. The wealth of business' and housing and jobs runs all the way to Wales.
Has everyone in UK aviation planning taken leave of their senses?
What a quaint thought that is.
davidjohnson6
racedo I thibk it is helpful for you to have put the opposition case in a logical and calm manner. One area of jobs that depends on LHR to a very great extent is called the M4 corridor. The wealth of business' and housing and jobs runs all the way to Wales.
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irdealfrank,
Americans DO NOT speak English, they speak American as they do where I live now, even I'm using/spelling words such as faucet, meter (metre), license etc. etc. etc.
Americans DO NOT speak English, they speak American as they do where I live now, even I'm using/spelling words such as faucet, meter (metre), license etc. etc. etc.