UK Border Agency
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Saltburn
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK Border Agency
To me the UK Border Agency (something that was invented by Gordon Brown, no wonder it is such a shambles) is a grossly incompetent organisation. The queues at Heathrow and other British airports are not there because of a high level of security but because the entire Border Agency is probably unfit for purpose. Let me give you a few reasons for these views. I have arrived at STN at least 14 times in the last 12 months. I have a chip passport. This is said to let me use a special set of booths to enable quick entry to the UK. On no occasion when I have arrived at STN in the last year have ANY of these booths been working. Why not? On every occasion there have been several “managers” looking at the queues at people arriving late at night when there are usually 10 desks unmanned but none of these “managers” seems to have any impact on getting those desks manned. Obviously a complete waste of money. Why are they not processing passports instead of standing around?
On every flight into the UK APIS data is required. Why then are any passport checks required at UK airports at all? The passport check is already part of the check-in process. With this data available why are offending or high risk passengers ever allowed on to the aircraft in the first place? Maybe this is because the Border Agency computers, like every other government department computer, don’t work?
Why, as a matter of principle should I have to wait for even one second to be allowed to enter my own country? Surely that is a human right. Oh! I just forgot that our present government wants to get rid of our human rights by abolishing the Human Rights Act. Maybe that explains it?
Every UK airport knows exactly how many people are due to arrive at any airport in any 5 minute period. (Aircraft departure signal allied with pax on board). Same level of maths as taught to a three year old. Seemingly beyond the skill of the Border Agency. So why can’t they man up to meet that passenger flow? Maybe it is because the Trades Unions want to keep protected employment status for their current members.
Does anyone other than the managers of this shambolic agency believe that the UK will actually be a less safe place if this outfit is simply and immediately shut down? What does it actually do for us and what does it cost every air traveller?
What is absolutely certain is that our shambolic entry procedures are deterring visitors and destroying jobs.
On every flight into the UK APIS data is required. Why then are any passport checks required at UK airports at all? The passport check is already part of the check-in process. With this data available why are offending or high risk passengers ever allowed on to the aircraft in the first place? Maybe this is because the Border Agency computers, like every other government department computer, don’t work?
Why, as a matter of principle should I have to wait for even one second to be allowed to enter my own country? Surely that is a human right. Oh! I just forgot that our present government wants to get rid of our human rights by abolishing the Human Rights Act. Maybe that explains it?
Every UK airport knows exactly how many people are due to arrive at any airport in any 5 minute period. (Aircraft departure signal allied with pax on board). Same level of maths as taught to a three year old. Seemingly beyond the skill of the Border Agency. So why can’t they man up to meet that passenger flow? Maybe it is because the Trades Unions want to keep protected employment status for their current members.
Does anyone other than the managers of this shambolic agency believe that the UK will actually be a less safe place if this outfit is simply and immediately shut down? What does it actually do for us and what does it cost every air traveller?
What is absolutely certain is that our shambolic entry procedures are deterring visitors and destroying jobs.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cape Town / UK / Europe
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is absolutely certain is that our shambolic entry procedures are deterring visitors and destroying jobs.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re the Ques at T5
Excercise caution incoming at T5: from experence two years ago, the escalator at the base from the long walk from the piers, unless altered, that corridor featured on the BBC two nights ago, leading upto the passport assessment area is a hazard.
I was one of those pax who watched two BAA droids, stop the Escalator without prior warning. In a crowd situation this poses a significant risk.
CAT III
I was one of those pax who watched two BAA droids, stop the Escalator without prior warning. In a crowd situation this poses a significant risk.
CAT III
It all goes down to politics. The Government thinks that there are more votes in being tough on border control even if it hits VFRs, businessmen, well of tourists and so on. It is said that UK tourism is loosing out because of high visa charges and not being part of the Schengen zone. A senior academic recently told me that the Gvnt would like universities to teach overseas students abroad because there is no danger of them overstaying their visa. How much revenue are we losing as a result of this? It might even make companies less likely to set up in the UK.
Bear in mind if there is a big outcry the Government will have to act. (It has introduced a penalty scheme for airport operators for weather delays even though the operators have rather less control over the weather!) If you are delayed write to your MP. Ditto if a friend from abroad is delayed.
As pinhammond points out, if you are really interested in security the important thing is to prevent undesirables getting on the plane in the first place. What they really needs is pre-clearance at the origin airport although I dare say that the logistics would be challenging. However details can be passed from the originating airport then all that you need to do is check the ID of the individual.
London is probably the international city par excellence but Britain is very insular. I suppose that it comes from being an island nation. Any passenger from outside the UK has to be rescreened because we don't trust other countries security checks. You would really think it wouldn;'t be necessary if the security of the originating country had been audited but no.
Its not just aviation though, complex checks are having to be made on Eurostar trains because domestic passengers travelling to Lille may continue to the UK. You really wonder why we can't sign up to Schengen but I dare say that the Government fears losing votes to UKIP.
Still as I said, write to your MP, the press whatever.
Rant over.
Bear in mind if there is a big outcry the Government will have to act. (It has introduced a penalty scheme for airport operators for weather delays even though the operators have rather less control over the weather!) If you are delayed write to your MP. Ditto if a friend from abroad is delayed.
As pinhammond points out, if you are really interested in security the important thing is to prevent undesirables getting on the plane in the first place. What they really needs is pre-clearance at the origin airport although I dare say that the logistics would be challenging. However details can be passed from the originating airport then all that you need to do is check the ID of the individual.
London is probably the international city par excellence but Britain is very insular. I suppose that it comes from being an island nation. Any passenger from outside the UK has to be rescreened because we don't trust other countries security checks. You would really think it wouldn;'t be necessary if the security of the originating country had been audited but no.
Its not just aviation though, complex checks are having to be made on Eurostar trains because domestic passengers travelling to Lille may continue to the UK. You really wonder why we can't sign up to Schengen but I dare say that the Government fears losing votes to UKIP.
Still as I said, write to your MP, the press whatever.
Rant over.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Crawley
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those of you who are not familiar with current UK news there have been lurid stories this last week about a UK spy who was found dead padlocked into a sports bag. This leads me to think that it might just be possible for any self-respecting terrorist to read about this story and realise that a much better way to get into the UK would be to put himself into a golf bag and have himself delivered into the country via a baggage belt rather than waste his valuable time queueing up to have his passport machine-read at Heathrow. When the UK government is putting its own employees into sports bags it is not surprising that all sorts of people might find that to be an attractive way of evading immigration controls.
The activities of this agency seem to be as irrelevant as injecting a skeleton with penicillin. There is no possible point to that and the sooner the UK government at the highest level realises that this pointless agency has as little purpose as that the better.
The activities of this agency seem to be as irrelevant as injecting a skeleton with penicillin. There is no possible point to that and the sooner the UK government at the highest level realises that this pointless agency has as little purpose as that the better.
Peter47
I feel sure that the border controls for EEA citizens are making the UK too difficult to visit for European tourists. I travel often (by road) from and to the UK, and across the Schengen area. If all EEA nations had the same attitude towards frontier controls crossing Europe would be a nightmare. The UK Govt. needs to take a grown up view to European travellers (after all as has been said they get all the passengers data in advance anyway) and concentrate their efforts on the non-EU arrivals, by which I mean not making checks more rigorous, but actually putting enough staff on the desks to make the waiting time more reasonable.
Regarding visas, the policy is certainly hindering trade. I would cite the example of an Indian company intending to send buyers to a large print exhibition in UK. They wanted to combine their trip with visits to manufacturers in Schengen. They got their Schengen visa no problem, but were aksed to jump through so many hoops to get a UK visa that eventually they decided not to bother with the UK visit at all, and to spend their money elsewhere. UK Immigration Service 0 : 1 European Industry. Brilliant!
The UK is fast getting a reputation like that of the US Immigration system, and that positively hinders tourism. I know more than a few people that won't travel to or through the US anymore because of their immigration queues, interrogations etc.
UK Governments of all hues need to stop listening to the Daily Mail and The Sun, and take an intelligent measured view of Border Control processes.
It is said that UK tourism is loosing out because of high visa charges and not being part of the Schengen zone
Regarding visas, the policy is certainly hindering trade. I would cite the example of an Indian company intending to send buyers to a large print exhibition in UK. They wanted to combine their trip with visits to manufacturers in Schengen. They got their Schengen visa no problem, but were aksed to jump through so many hoops to get a UK visa that eventually they decided not to bother with the UK visit at all, and to spend their money elsewhere. UK Immigration Service 0 : 1 European Industry. Brilliant!
The UK is fast getting a reputation like that of the US Immigration system, and that positively hinders tourism. I know more than a few people that won't travel to or through the US anymore because of their immigration queues, interrogations etc.
UK Governments of all hues need to stop listening to the Daily Mail and The Sun, and take an intelligent measured view of Border Control processes.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: derbyshire
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the government took more notice of the Daily Mail we would not be in the present mess.
People are annoyed/bloody furious when there are 20 desks and only a few are open.
With nearly 3 million unemployed you would think they could train more staff to man/woman the desks.
What an incompetent bunch we have got in government and opposition.
People are annoyed/bloody furious when there are 20 desks and only a few are open.
With nearly 3 million unemployed you would think they could train more staff to man/woman the desks.
What an incompetent bunch we have got in government and opposition.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cape Town / UK / Europe
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The difficulty with ATNotts proposed solution is that opening up the UK borders to EEA arrivals in the same way as if it were part of Schengen, or indeed joining Schengen, would cause huge problems in respect of people already illegally in Schengen. They will now find the gateway to the UK open as well as the Schengen countries.
This is what the UKBA/BF wants to guard against - they are doing an appalling job whichever way you look at it, but opening the borders would be a retrograde step.
I don't pretend to know what the solution is, but then I'm not paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to do so!
This is what the UKBA/BF wants to guard against - they are doing an appalling job whichever way you look at it, but opening the borders would be a retrograde step.
I don't pretend to know what the solution is, but then I'm not paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to do so!
VC10man
You're right about the staffing, it's the same daft situation at Eurotunnel in Coquelles. A fortune spent upgading the border posts now bristling with the technology, but half of them unmanned.
Tableview
The assumption in UK (Daily Mail) is that every non-EU citizen in every other EEA country is desparate to get to the UK, which is clearly rubbish. Take the Turks for example, most of whom are more than happy to remain in Germany (much to some German's annoyance).
Even if we're not going to join Schengen (and it's about as likely as our joining the Euro!) there could be a more intelligent approach to monitoring internal EEA traffic, as opposed to 3rd. country arrivals. Sadly, Brodie Clarke probably had more intelligence than the rest of the numpties put together, and he was forced out as a fallguy for Teresa May!
You're right about the staffing, it's the same daft situation at Eurotunnel in Coquelles. A fortune spent upgading the border posts now bristling with the technology, but half of them unmanned.
Tableview
The assumption in UK (Daily Mail) is that every non-EU citizen in every other EEA country is desparate to get to the UK, which is clearly rubbish. Take the Turks for example, most of whom are more than happy to remain in Germany (much to some German's annoyance).
Even if we're not going to join Schengen (and it's about as likely as our joining the Euro!) there could be a more intelligent approach to monitoring internal EEA traffic, as opposed to 3rd. country arrivals. Sadly, Brodie Clarke probably had more intelligence than the rest of the numpties put together, and he was forced out as a fallguy for Teresa May!
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cape Town / UK / Europe
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The assumption .......... is that every non-EU citizen in every other EEA country is desparate to get to the UK, which is clearly rubbish.
.............. there could be a more intelligent approach to monitoring internal EEA traffic, as opposed to 3rd. country arrivals. Sadly, Brodie Clarke probably had more intelligence than the rest of the numpties put together, and he was forced out as a fallguy for Teresa May!
And since when did 'intelligence' go with politics!
And by the way South Africans also have to go to a lot of trouble and expense to get visas for UK, even just for transit, whereas UK citizens don't need visas to go to SA, so these arrangements are not always reciprocal.
Those that are legit business / tourists are often the ones put through hoops and fleeced.
My friend, a British resident is seriously ill with cancer. His parents are Chinese. On compassionate grounds, the Chinese gave them almost immediate passports so they can visit him. The British embassy however, have fleeced them of £300 each for Visa applications and after 2 weeks, have yet to decide if they can visit their seriously sick son.
Another Asian friend, a French resident, can freely travel around Europe, but needs constant Visa renewals to visit the UK for VFR. The last renewal was a shambles-not to mention expense. He's given up & no longer wishes visit here.
The Govt "priority" is to cut costs = cut staff, so you have no chance of shorter queues. I assume they are now basing the UKBA American style where 4 hours at Miami immigration is not uncommon.
We have the most expensive aviation airport taxes in the world - but one of the poorest service delivery. Rather like the roads- the highes fuel duty & taxes in Europe-but some of the crappiest roads.
After they tax us to death, they then extract the p*ss out of you.
I just don't understand why we are are recession(again)
My friend, a British resident is seriously ill with cancer. His parents are Chinese. On compassionate grounds, the Chinese gave them almost immediate passports so they can visit him. The British embassy however, have fleeced them of £300 each for Visa applications and after 2 weeks, have yet to decide if they can visit their seriously sick son.
Another Asian friend, a French resident, can freely travel around Europe, but needs constant Visa renewals to visit the UK for VFR. The last renewal was a shambles-not to mention expense. He's given up & no longer wishes visit here.
The Govt "priority" is to cut costs = cut staff, so you have no chance of shorter queues. I assume they are now basing the UKBA American style where 4 hours at Miami immigration is not uncommon.
We have the most expensive aviation airport taxes in the world - but one of the poorest service delivery. Rather like the roads- the highes fuel duty & taxes in Europe-but some of the crappiest roads.
After they tax us to death, they then extract the p*ss out of you.
I just don't understand why we are are recession(again)
1. Having a border agency with a strict remit is absolutely vital. Britain is far too crowded as it is, and some of those wishing to enter are not benevolent to our interests at all. A terrorist attack on Britain would be more highly prized by our enemies than one on say, Holland or Denmark.
2. Whilst it is relatively straightforward to check a single manifest against 200 - 300 individuals, that is not the way airports work. Arriving passengers are mixed together before arriving at the border control, so instead of 200 or so, there are suddenly several thousand, from different continents and displaying different levels of risk.
3. Governments are completely useless at doing anything. They use expensively-employed staff who are generally under-utilised. They concentrate on political correctness rather than getting the job done. They employ the worst managers (the best wouldn't dream of working for the public sector) and weave themselves into a web of bureaucracy.
So what is the answer?
I would suggest privatization of UKBA but with third-party independent auditing. A Service Level Agreement to control delays and thoroughness of checks. Personal legal liability in criminal law of employees and Directors who fail to carry out their functions correctly.
There may be a need to redesign airports to separate passengers from different origins, and to process arrivals on a flight-by-flight basis.
2. Whilst it is relatively straightforward to check a single manifest against 200 - 300 individuals, that is not the way airports work. Arriving passengers are mixed together before arriving at the border control, so instead of 200 or so, there are suddenly several thousand, from different continents and displaying different levels of risk.
3. Governments are completely useless at doing anything. They use expensively-employed staff who are generally under-utilised. They concentrate on political correctness rather than getting the job done. They employ the worst managers (the best wouldn't dream of working for the public sector) and weave themselves into a web of bureaucracy.
So what is the answer?
I would suggest privatization of UKBA but with third-party independent auditing. A Service Level Agreement to control delays and thoroughness of checks. Personal legal liability in criminal law of employees and Directors who fail to carry out their functions correctly.
There may be a need to redesign airports to separate passengers from different origins, and to process arrivals on a flight-by-flight basis.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LGS
Border control MUST know how many people are arriving in any specific
half hour slot - all they need to do is look at the BAA website which tells them when and what and the estimated ETA and use a pocket calculator
The problem is that Border Control is seen as a way of showing arrivals who is boss - we're getting as bad as the USA
I've been going through Singapore for 35 years and never had to wait more than 10 minutes - and that was ONCE - normally the queue is 4-5 people
And don't tell me Singapore is not secure
Border control MUST know how many people are arriving in any specific
half hour slot - all they need to do is look at the BAA website which tells them when and what and the estimated ETA and use a pocket calculator
The problem is that Border Control is seen as a way of showing arrivals who is boss - we're getting as bad as the USA
I've been going through Singapore for 35 years and never had to wait more than 10 minutes - and that was ONCE - normally the queue is 4-5 people
And don't tell me Singapore is not secure
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK Border Agency
Heathrow Harry is quite correct ; if passengers can be processed effectively through border controls at other major airports in the world including his example SIN but also the likes of HKG, DXB and YYZ, then it can be done in this country even with the stringent passport checks that are now necessary with international travel. The problem with the Border Agency ( previously HM Immigration ) at LHR and to a lesser extent LGW and MAN is one of management - or lack thereof. It is not a massively complicted task to schedule resources according to known demand, it is done in thousands of other scenarios within the aviation world. What is needed is the right attitude and ethos, a person at the top who will demand and ensure that people entering this country are processed in an efficient, timely and courteous manner at all airports and at all times. If this does not happen, this country will attract criticism from business and leisure travellers that we are incapable of organising our transport processes to meet the known demands of arriving passeengers - and, if we can't get this right for the Olympics, the negative reputation will stay with us for years.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cape Town / UK / Europe
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe there could temporary application of 'Schengen'? If there aren't any problems, then make it permanent?
Of course it depends from whose perspective you are looking at this. It would certainly help people like you and me and other decent law-abiding people getting into the country but that is where the advantage stops.
I asked my bank if they would leave the safe open so I could help myself to my money as and when I needed it. Surprisingly, they said they couldn't!