Upper wing covered by snow during takeoff roll
deicing wasn't the only factor in that instance.
the stupidity of some people.
Folks, it is not just Aeroflot, it is not just Glasgow. Inability and/or unwillingness of aviation authorities to press the issue has lead to practically anything-you-can-get-away-with type of game regarding ground de/anti-icing all around the Europe. Of course, if someone goes all the way, it is pretty safe bet that company will point out it was done in contravention of its own procedures and investigators will not be likely to explore how they were enforced prior to mishap.
The report regarding airframe contamination at GLA I find very hard to believe, however if it is accurate was it reported? If not why not? Very strange.
Originally Posted by Till Lindemann
Willkommen in der Wirklichkeit
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Any exception to the rule?
January in northern Scandinavia:
Aircraft deices on departure from an airfield where OAT is -15C with moderate snow. Flies 90min, cruising at FL400. Arrives at destination where OAT is -26C, light snow. 30min turnaround. Plenty of snow on the aircraft but crew tactile check no snow is adhering to the airframe as ice, and depart without deicing.
Completely insane, or operating under some little known but perfectly legal procedures??
Is it possible for both the air and the aircraft to be so cold that frozen precipitation cannot stick to critical surfaces, as a scientifically proven fact?? Doesn't seem right but I'm always ready to be amazed by science!
Would be good to hear the facts from an operator who actually does this, if indeed they exist...
Aircraft deices on departure from an airfield where OAT is -15C with moderate snow. Flies 90min, cruising at FL400. Arrives at destination where OAT is -26C, light snow. 30min turnaround. Plenty of snow on the aircraft but crew tactile check no snow is adhering to the airframe as ice, and depart without deicing.
Completely insane, or operating under some little known but perfectly legal procedures??
Is it possible for both the air and the aircraft to be so cold that frozen precipitation cannot stick to critical surfaces, as a scientifically proven fact?? Doesn't seem right but I'm always ready to be amazed by science!
Would be good to hear the facts from an operator who actually does this, if indeed they exist...
Last edited by theWings; 14th Jan 2013 at 20:04.
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@thewings: at such minus temperatures the snow won't stick to anything. For it to stick it needs to be quite watery/briefly melt and refreeze (so if the aircraft skin was relatively warm but only so much that the snow would then refreeze rather than just melt off the skin). That's why in really cold temperatures you get "powder" snow that doesn't stick, no good for snowmanbuilding or snowball fights, whereas around 0 degrees you get the larger snow flakes and "sticky snow".
I'd still prefer them to de-ice the plane...
I'd still prefer them to de-ice the plane...
Last edited by insuindi; 14th Jan 2013 at 21:33.
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Glasgowboy, I wasn' t going to lower my self to writing a response to your post but your last paragraph has prompted me to do so. If you know anything about the engineers who release these aircraft and the drivers who fly them then STD means nothing unless the aircraft is safe to depart.
I have worked out who you deice for and who the airlines you are talking about and know personally a lot of the engineers and flight crew, and can say with out much doubt that an aircraft would not depart with even a small patch of frost on a wing. Let alone a light covering of snow.
I consider myself to be inexperienced in this industry in comparison to some of my peers, and I have been working on aircraft for 14 years. I certainly wouldn't be touting my self in the way you are after 5 winter's worth of deicing experience.
I have worked out who you deice for and who the airlines you are talking about and know personally a lot of the engineers and flight crew, and can say with out much doubt that an aircraft would not depart with even a small patch of frost on a wing. Let alone a light covering of snow.
I consider myself to be inexperienced in this industry in comparison to some of my peers, and I have been working on aircraft for 14 years. I certainly wouldn't be touting my self in the way you are after 5 winter's worth of deicing experience.
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On some models of the 737, the AFM allows take off with fuel frost on the upper surface of the wings and I understand a number of North American and European carriers do it.
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I did. Didn't search for CSFF. Had done so previously and thought while the NG was definitely allowed to do it, so were some other models, but only in certain regions.
The whole thing is confusing as heck to me.
The AFM allows the procedure and the FAA approved that procedure but the FAA then later rescinded their approval. People like Southwest, who were once doing takeoffs with CSFF had to stop once the FAA approval was rescinded.
Other regulatory authorities however, but not all, followed suit. Those that did not follow suit still allow Take Offs with CSFF.
Seems like quite a mess and it just doesn't jive with my understanding of Airworthiness/Certification approvals.
The whole thing is confusing as heck to me.
The AFM allows the procedure and the FAA approved that procedure but the FAA then later rescinded their approval. People like Southwest, who were once doing takeoffs with CSFF had to stop once the FAA approval was rescinded.
Other regulatory authorities however, but not all, followed suit. Those that did not follow suit still allow Take Offs with CSFF.
Seems like quite a mess and it just doesn't jive with my understanding of Airworthiness/Certification approvals.
Last edited by nnc0; 15th Jan 2013 at 22:19.
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insuindi,
yes all true. but what i'm really wondering is whether anyone has approval to begin the takeoff roll on the assumption that everything is cold enough for all the snow to be gone by v1... i guess (hope?) i'll be waiting a while...
yes all true. but what i'm really wondering is whether anyone has approval to begin the takeoff roll on the assumption that everything is cold enough for all the snow to be gone by v1... i guess (hope?) i'll be waiting a while...
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Its freezing flippin cold, overcast with low blowing dry snow. The a/c has been de-iced, all of the permitted de-icing systems on the a/c are functioning normally. There is no ice on the pitots, or, in the pitots rather.
It looks like cold s--t outside the wings are clear except for the low blowing snow everywhere. Subject to ice or stuff on the wings can we go, we are ready to line up and take off. Can we go?
It is a bright sunny day, but cold as s--t. There is residual hoar frost covering the upper surface of the wings, some bozo even decided to refuel it, the latent heat of the re-fuelling makes this stuff stick tight. Can we go?
The holdover time for this aircraft is 15 mins in today`s conditions, the de-icer guy has just frozen his goolies off by de-icing the entire (relevant surfaces for de-icing) aircraft and it has taken him 15 mins in the freezing bloody cold the wind covering him with rapidly cooling chemical s--t. The aircraft is ready for doors closed, can we go?
The aircraft is within its holdover time and although de-iced has a covering of the recent precipitation (big fat fluffy snowflakes) we are taxying for line up and take off. All deicing systems are wroking correctly and there is no abnormal engine indication. Can we go?
Moral? From a pax perspective: Not all stuff on the upper wing surface is gonna hurt anything. Not every shoddy day in the winter with obvious precipitation looking like something out of Ice Station Zebra is going to do anything wrong, bad, or unsafe.
Some naughty stuff (see above) like hard hoar frost - should be cleared prior to taxi.
Its the P1, who has a foot. When this foot is put down people respond.
Whether or not he is on the job market the next day with his wife and kids starving - he will ever hold his head high and say to himself, well, at least I did not kill all thos poor m--- f---s.
Y`all know the rules. Either it is 100% safe and flyable and there are warm smiles all round as you drink your coffee and snaffled do-nut, knowing that this flight is going to be as safe as houses, because of your knowledge, experience and and training. Fearless.
Or, something is wrong but you can`t find your foot. Full of trepidation. ("but we`ve run out of killfrost") Tough titty, we aint going until that alpine ski resort has been cleared off the wings. Coffee anyone?
Note the children on the terminal floor playing up and giving the parents a hard time, the entire family is thirsty, the place is packed, the parents are tearing their own hair out, YOUR flight has caused this delay, while you look for the do-nut bar, a manager is trying to get to you through the crowd, you continue to the coffe and do-nut stand with your hostie Juicia Lucia, maybe later go somewhere for a quick ciggie? Until they have de-iced the mother.
As you survey the crowded concourse, you see 150 living souls, whose lives you have just saved, shouting, screaming, bit-hing, wishing they were dead, anything but here in this stuffy old terminal building with three screaming kids and unable to move as they are in line waiting to know if the flight is going to be cancelled or not, some freaking out not knowing where they are going to stay (not used to sleeping on benches specifically designed to stop people from sleeping on them. airport terminals are cruel places, especially for familes - the designers should be shot)
Little do the pax know how close to their wishes they actually came, as they see a flash captain eating a soggy do-nut and drinking coffee with a babe of a hostie Tis` you - the P1 focused on de-icer, coffee and donuts with Jucia who has just saved everyone of their lives.
Either something is right or it is wrong.
Either it will fly (safely) or it won`t - we all know this. If in doubt, go back to flight school.
It looks like cold s--t outside the wings are clear except for the low blowing snow everywhere. Subject to ice or stuff on the wings can we go, we are ready to line up and take off. Can we go?
It is a bright sunny day, but cold as s--t. There is residual hoar frost covering the upper surface of the wings, some bozo even decided to refuel it, the latent heat of the re-fuelling makes this stuff stick tight. Can we go?
The holdover time for this aircraft is 15 mins in today`s conditions, the de-icer guy has just frozen his goolies off by de-icing the entire (relevant surfaces for de-icing) aircraft and it has taken him 15 mins in the freezing bloody cold the wind covering him with rapidly cooling chemical s--t. The aircraft is ready for doors closed, can we go?
The aircraft is within its holdover time and although de-iced has a covering of the recent precipitation (big fat fluffy snowflakes) we are taxying for line up and take off. All deicing systems are wroking correctly and there is no abnormal engine indication. Can we go?
Moral? From a pax perspective: Not all stuff on the upper wing surface is gonna hurt anything. Not every shoddy day in the winter with obvious precipitation looking like something out of Ice Station Zebra is going to do anything wrong, bad, or unsafe.
Some naughty stuff (see above) like hard hoar frost - should be cleared prior to taxi.
Its the P1, who has a foot. When this foot is put down people respond.
Whether or not he is on the job market the next day with his wife and kids starving - he will ever hold his head high and say to himself, well, at least I did not kill all thos poor m--- f---s.
Y`all know the rules. Either it is 100% safe and flyable and there are warm smiles all round as you drink your coffee and snaffled do-nut, knowing that this flight is going to be as safe as houses, because of your knowledge, experience and and training. Fearless.
Or, something is wrong but you can`t find your foot. Full of trepidation. ("but we`ve run out of killfrost") Tough titty, we aint going until that alpine ski resort has been cleared off the wings. Coffee anyone?
Note the children on the terminal floor playing up and giving the parents a hard time, the entire family is thirsty, the place is packed, the parents are tearing their own hair out, YOUR flight has caused this delay, while you look for the do-nut bar, a manager is trying to get to you through the crowd, you continue to the coffe and do-nut stand with your hostie Juicia Lucia, maybe later go somewhere for a quick ciggie? Until they have de-iced the mother.
As you survey the crowded concourse, you see 150 living souls, whose lives you have just saved, shouting, screaming, bit-hing, wishing they were dead, anything but here in this stuffy old terminal building with three screaming kids and unable to move as they are in line waiting to know if the flight is going to be cancelled or not, some freaking out not knowing where they are going to stay (not used to sleeping on benches specifically designed to stop people from sleeping on them. airport terminals are cruel places, especially for familes - the designers should be shot)
Little do the pax know how close to their wishes they actually came, as they see a flash captain eating a soggy do-nut and drinking coffee with a babe of a hostie Tis` you - the P1 focused on de-icer, coffee and donuts with Jucia who has just saved everyone of their lives.
Either something is right or it is wrong.
Either it will fly (safely) or it won`t - we all know this. If in doubt, go back to flight school.
Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 28th Jan 2013 at 10:58.
