Irish Regional Airport...the Future
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Irish Regional Airport...the Future
I thought that I would open up a discussion on the subject of the Irish Regional Airport as they dont get a huge mention.
With so much change in the economy and the airline business in particular what lies ahead for the smaller Irish airports? PSO were earmarked in a government report for withdrawl or reduction, captial funding I understand is also under threat so that may restrict some of the airport to invest extend runways etc. Eg Galway, Waterford, Sligo?
Number are down across the whole airline business so as the regionals have quieter traffic levels will a significant dip leave them in a precarious situation?
On the flip side with Ryanair scaling back operations (we have yet to see for sure how significant is this as they may still operate many routes from other bases) at Shannon may this present opportunities for Kerry or in particular Galway.. and given that Aer Arann set out not to expand scheduled operations would they explore any opportunities particularly on the routes to UK airports many they may have done before LBA, BRS etc.
Ireland West/Knock has been exemplary at its development and growth but some of the other airports have been stagnant namely Sligo and Donegal and Galway has had it tough with Ryanair being quite predatory with doing similar routes from Shannon? It always facinates me that Waterford cannot support greater range of destinations especially in the UK given that it is reasonably far from Dublin or to a lesser extent Cork.
Finally, thinking specifically of PSO routes are these going to be around if the grants are withdrawn? Dublin/Kerry that Ryanair now operate (and the loads are atrocious) .. will Ryanair continue to support a route that is very marginal or even loss making (obviously I cannot confirm if the route is loss making)? Would Sligo/Donegal/Galway be able to invest into their futures?
Some opinion exists that we shouldn't have as many Regional airports and instead focus on the bigger gateways of Shannon, Dublin, Cork, Knock.
Any comments/idea's on the subject?
With so much change in the economy and the airline business in particular what lies ahead for the smaller Irish airports? PSO were earmarked in a government report for withdrawl or reduction, captial funding I understand is also under threat so that may restrict some of the airport to invest extend runways etc. Eg Galway, Waterford, Sligo?
Number are down across the whole airline business so as the regionals have quieter traffic levels will a significant dip leave them in a precarious situation?
On the flip side with Ryanair scaling back operations (we have yet to see for sure how significant is this as they may still operate many routes from other bases) at Shannon may this present opportunities for Kerry or in particular Galway.. and given that Aer Arann set out not to expand scheduled operations would they explore any opportunities particularly on the routes to UK airports many they may have done before LBA, BRS etc.
Ireland West/Knock has been exemplary at its development and growth but some of the other airports have been stagnant namely Sligo and Donegal and Galway has had it tough with Ryanair being quite predatory with doing similar routes from Shannon? It always facinates me that Waterford cannot support greater range of destinations especially in the UK given that it is reasonably far from Dublin or to a lesser extent Cork.
Finally, thinking specifically of PSO routes are these going to be around if the grants are withdrawn? Dublin/Kerry that Ryanair now operate (and the loads are atrocious) .. will Ryanair continue to support a route that is very marginal or even loss making (obviously I cannot confirm if the route is loss making)? Would Sligo/Donegal/Galway be able to invest into their futures?
Some opinion exists that we shouldn't have as many Regional airports and instead focus on the bigger gateways of Shannon, Dublin, Cork, Knock.
Any comments/idea's on the subject?
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Galway, Sligo, Waterford and Donegal airports should not exist.....end of
You will seldom find such comments made by those living near "Galway, Sligo, Waterford and Donegal".
Anyway I suppose the definition of a smaller Irish regional airport would be less than 1 million passengers per annum (2008).
Rank Airport .................... Passengers
1 ....Dublin ..................... 23,500,000
2 ....Belfast International .. 5,262,354
3 ....Cork ....................... 3,250,000
4 ....Shannon ................. 3,100,000
5 ....Belfast City ............. 2,570,742
6 ....Knock ....................... 630,170
7 ....Derry ........................ 439,033
8 ....Kerry ........................ 420,000
9 ....Galway ...................... 270,000
10 ..Waterford .................. 144,000
11 ..Donegal ....................... 65,537
12 ..Sligo ........................... 44,500†
13 ..Weston ....................... 21,522
† Latest available figures are for 2007 (How do you format a table on this forum?)
On another note, I think Shannon is about to lose its crown to Belfast City.
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Great stats Amelia. Thankfully the PSO routes will at least last until 2011 and by that time the economy will be improving. Without the PSO, I think Donegal and Sligo airports would struggle and these are parts of the country that need investment more than anywhere.
Last edited by CCR; 6th Dec 2009 at 18:57.
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Correct me if i'm wrong but Waterford for a long time got very little money and survive on very little so there has being no political back scrathing. They never recieved no money towards pso's that other airports have. They have proved that with with the correct routes and timings that they can get the passengers.
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Thanks amelia for the stats very interesting when summarised in a table.
The dynamic of figures will change between BFS and BHD in the next year!
Waterford were to extend the runway as was Galway and there were rumours that when these runways were extended Ryanair would be looking at them.. does anyone know if these extention plans still exist?
The dynamic of figures will change between BFS and BHD in the next year!
Waterford were to extend the runway as was Galway and there were rumours that when these runways were extended Ryanair would be looking at them.. does anyone know if these extention plans still exist?
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Quote: CCR:
"Without the PSO, I think Donegal and Sligo airports would struggle and these are parts of the country that need investment more than anywhere."
It's hard to see a commercial future for Sligo in particular with it's close proximity to Ireland West. It's only surviving on subvention through the single PSO route and government operational grant for loss making airports.
The short runway is outside the safety requirements of the IAA, and the proposed runway extension across a protected beach is being fought tooth and nail with over 300 detailed objections from local residents and seafood industry, Dept of Environment, Birdwatch Ireland and An Taisce citing clear evidence that it contravenes Irish and EU law. As if that wasn't enough the management admit they have no development plan and that the extension would only meet minimum safety requirements, with no operational advantage. So it would still be limited to load restricted ATRs at best.
Sligo may have served a purpose in the 90s but is of little benefit now that road and rail infrastructure to the capital are much improved and Ryanair, Aer Lingus and BMI are based less than an hour down the road. The millions given in subvention each year would have a far greater return for the people of the area if invested in improving the N4/N17 and bus access to Ireland West.
"Without the PSO, I think Donegal and Sligo airports would struggle and these are parts of the country that need investment more than anywhere."
It's hard to see a commercial future for Sligo in particular with it's close proximity to Ireland West. It's only surviving on subvention through the single PSO route and government operational grant for loss making airports.
The short runway is outside the safety requirements of the IAA, and the proposed runway extension across a protected beach is being fought tooth and nail with over 300 detailed objections from local residents and seafood industry, Dept of Environment, Birdwatch Ireland and An Taisce citing clear evidence that it contravenes Irish and EU law. As if that wasn't enough the management admit they have no development plan and that the extension would only meet minimum safety requirements, with no operational advantage. So it would still be limited to load restricted ATRs at best.
Sligo may have served a purpose in the 90s but is of little benefit now that road and rail infrastructure to the capital are much improved and Ryanair, Aer Lingus and BMI are based less than an hour down the road. The millions given in subvention each year would have a far greater return for the people of the area if invested in improving the N4/N17 and bus access to Ireland West.
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Quote: EI-BUD
"On the flip side with Ryanair scaling back operations (we have yet to see for sure how significant is this as they may still operate many routes from other bases) at Shannon may this present opportunities for Kerry or in particular Galway.. and given that Aer Arann set out not to expand scheduled operations would they explore any opportunities particularly on the routes to UK airports many they may have done before LBA, BRS etc."
It was posted on the Shannon thread that Ryanair have followed through with their pull-out and Shannon is down to 1 based aircraft from next summer, though as you said they may switch them to other bases. Last week Michael O'Leary said they were planning on adding Spanish and Italian routes from Ireland West and Kerry next year in a interview with RTE, so that looks like the only hope of regional expansion in 2010.
Aer Arann don't let much slip but the general trend has been to cut back this year and focus on UK and charter opportunities, which I can't see changing until there is a major upturn. They did look in to starting 146 operations from DUB but that was apparently shelved. They are down to 3 UK routes from Galway with lower frequencies and some days routed via Waterford. That coupled with comments from Galway Airport that many domestic customers are switching to new bus and rail services suggest numbers will be down significantly this year. Again PSO and the operational subvention are sustaining the airport.
Quote: EI-BUD
"Waterford were to extend the runway as was Galway and there were rumours that when these runways were extended Ryanair would be looking at them.. does anyone know if these extention plans still exist?"
I think the Waterford runway plans were well advanced with funding outlined in the original Transport 21 investment, but last years cutbacks in the capital grants may have put that on the long finger. There has been talk about Galway for years but none based on anything concrete. The current site is constrained by surrounding roads and buildings which would add significant cost to expansion on the site and impede required taxiway and navaid clearances without a new alignment. Given the economic situation, falling numbers and proximity to Shannon and Ireland West it's hard to see any change in the near future.
"On the flip side with Ryanair scaling back operations (we have yet to see for sure how significant is this as they may still operate many routes from other bases) at Shannon may this present opportunities for Kerry or in particular Galway.. and given that Aer Arann set out not to expand scheduled operations would they explore any opportunities particularly on the routes to UK airports many they may have done before LBA, BRS etc."
It was posted on the Shannon thread that Ryanair have followed through with their pull-out and Shannon is down to 1 based aircraft from next summer, though as you said they may switch them to other bases. Last week Michael O'Leary said they were planning on adding Spanish and Italian routes from Ireland West and Kerry next year in a interview with RTE, so that looks like the only hope of regional expansion in 2010.
Aer Arann don't let much slip but the general trend has been to cut back this year and focus on UK and charter opportunities, which I can't see changing until there is a major upturn. They did look in to starting 146 operations from DUB but that was apparently shelved. They are down to 3 UK routes from Galway with lower frequencies and some days routed via Waterford. That coupled with comments from Galway Airport that many domestic customers are switching to new bus and rail services suggest numbers will be down significantly this year. Again PSO and the operational subvention are sustaining the airport.
Quote: EI-BUD
"Waterford were to extend the runway as was Galway and there were rumours that when these runways were extended Ryanair would be looking at them.. does anyone know if these extention plans still exist?"
I think the Waterford runway plans were well advanced with funding outlined in the original Transport 21 investment, but last years cutbacks in the capital grants may have put that on the long finger. There has been talk about Galway for years but none based on anything concrete. The current site is constrained by surrounding roads and buildings which would add significant cost to expansion on the site and impede required taxiway and navaid clearances without a new alignment. Given the economic situation, falling numbers and proximity to Shannon and Ireland West it's hard to see any change in the near future.
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The Government is doing a good job in re-couping the PSO outlay with the new Air Travel Tax. At €10 a pax...its surely breaking even from Knock, Galway & Kerry!!!
€15m a year to assist 6 airports doesn't sound like bad business to me. What about the PAYE and additional employment (car hire, taxis, franchisees etc) that the PSO contributes to the Govt coffers??? What would the closure of 6/7 regional airports cost in Social Welfare etc??? What about the drain of industries from the regions cost????
Does the Government want all business to re-locate to Dublin???
Sure a 'Use-Less Report' on 'Something else just as Useless' would cost the Taxpayer €15m. Jeez...look at the Tribunals, Electronic Voting!
Sikky
€15m a year to assist 6 airports doesn't sound like bad business to me. What about the PAYE and additional employment (car hire, taxis, franchisees etc) that the PSO contributes to the Govt coffers??? What would the closure of 6/7 regional airports cost in Social Welfare etc??? What about the drain of industries from the regions cost????
Does the Government want all business to re-locate to Dublin???
Sure a 'Use-Less Report' on 'Something else just as Useless' would cost the Taxpayer €15m. Jeez...look at the Tribunals, Electronic Voting!
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Galway is going to struggle to survive post PSO. Management change in '07 saw them losing 14 routes, (and losing money for the first time) have incurred massive debt over last couple of years, with major management layers and overheads, and investment in silly useless projects. Do not have the experience to get them through. Bleeeting in local media for retention of PSOs (get over it they're gone!) come up with new business plan or it's cutains. Only chance to survive is get your costs lower than your revene. Waterford, Kerry and Knock have greatest potential for survival outside of state airports.
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2 ....Belfast International .. 5,262,354
5 ....Belfast City ............. 2,570,742
7 ....Derry ........................ 439,033
5 ....Belfast City ............. 2,570,742
7 ....Derry ........................ 439,033
or in [technically]the UK?
And are therefore used in different demographic and geographic areas.
Just a thought.....
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They are in Northern Ireland, however their catchment areas overlap southern airports and Derry in particular is relevant to this discussion as it is used by many people in the North West and has received Irish government funding as a gateway to the region. The original post was probably referring to the Republic in particular though (And nobody uses the term "Eire" anymore!).
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Sawtooth,
I agree with your comments on Sligo airport. If the runway extension is blocked and the PSO grants are terminated in 2011, then in all likelihood it will probably close to scheduled airline traffic. Without doubt, it is definately the most vunerable airport to close in the country. When the western rail line is extended from Galway to Sligo in the coming years, I hope the planners will ensure a stop at Knock -Ireland West airport!
Regarding Galway airport, its a bit like Belfast city airport, the runway is limited with larger airports nearby (Shannon & Knock) but its location, close to the city centre will ensure its survival.
Waterford will no doubt survive and prosper in the years ahead. It never received any PSO grants for flights to Dublin and in any case it will have a fine new motorway to Dublin next year!
I agree with your comments on Sligo airport. If the runway extension is blocked and the PSO grants are terminated in 2011, then in all likelihood it will probably close to scheduled airline traffic. Without doubt, it is definately the most vunerable airport to close in the country. When the western rail line is extended from Galway to Sligo in the coming years, I hope the planners will ensure a stop at Knock -Ireland West airport!
Regarding Galway airport, its a bit like Belfast city airport, the runway is limited with larger airports nearby (Shannon & Knock) but its location, close to the city centre will ensure its survival.
Waterford will no doubt survive and prosper in the years ahead. It never received any PSO grants for flights to Dublin and in any case it will have a fine new motorway to Dublin next year!
Last edited by CCR; 7th Dec 2009 at 17:23.
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Originally Posted by sawtooth
Forgive the generalisation TRY2FLY, but I can't remember the last time I heard anyone Irish use it,[...] usually hear it in vaguely patronising tones from across the water.
Eire can mean the "Republic Of Ireland", but it is the "Irish-Name" for the Island of Ireland.
So "patronising", vaguely" or otherwise, is irrelevant.
Originally Posted by dubh12000
Galway, Sligo, Waterford and Donegal airports should not exist.....end of. They exist because of political back scratching and nothing else, its a farce.
In fact I wish there was some political backscratching (Irish Style) at a certain NW England airport to help it keep up with it's big brothers.
Quote:
And nobody uses the term "Eire" anymore
.
Is that right?
And nobody uses the term "Eire" anymore
.
Is that right?
There is no such country as "the Republic of Ireland" (or one called the Irish Republic for that matter) except, perhaps, in the deluded and confused mind of FIFA.
The two states that exist on the island of Ireland are
a) Northern Ireland (part of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) and
b) Ireland (plain and simple).
Don't beleive me ... check out an Irish Citizen's passport ... it says Ireland or have a look at the Irish Constitution "Article 4-The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.". Or maybe you'd prefer the name of the State officially recognised internationally, by perhaps the UN say ... look, there we are between Iraq and Israel (that must be a fun place to sit at meetings!) United Nations Member States
Eire, or to be correct Éire (note the accent on the first E) is also acceptable, but only in so far as you would refer to Germany as Deutschland, Austria as Österreich or Spain as España.
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So back on topic...
A question was put to Minister Noel Dempsy on Waterford in July. The reply stated only contractually agreed projects would continue and all capital projects are subject to a value review now:
"...Under this scheme, Waterford Airport was allocated grants totalling €22.33 million, including €3.63 million in respect of a runway extension and widening project to facilitate the airport’s business development plans. Because of the current difficulties with the public finances, it has been decided that until the end of 2009, expenditure under the scheme at all of the airports should be focused on projects and project elements where the individual airports had already entered into contractual commitments by 23 July 2008. Decisions on expenditure in subsequent years must await the outcome of the Value for Money review of exchequer expenditure on regional airports being undertaken within my Department, which is due for completion in the autumn."
A question was put to Minister Noel Dempsy on Waterford in July. The reply stated only contractually agreed projects would continue and all capital projects are subject to a value review now:
"...Under this scheme, Waterford Airport was allocated grants totalling €22.33 million, including €3.63 million in respect of a runway extension and widening project to facilitate the airport’s business development plans. Because of the current difficulties with the public finances, it has been decided that until the end of 2009, expenditure under the scheme at all of the airports should be focused on projects and project elements where the individual airports had already entered into contractual commitments by 23 July 2008. Decisions on expenditure in subsequent years must await the outcome of the Value for Money review of exchequer expenditure on regional airports being undertaken within my Department, which is due for completion in the autumn."
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Originally Posted by just a spotter
The two states that exist on the island of Ireland are
a) Northern Ireland (part of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) and
b) Ireland (plain and simple).
a) Northern Ireland (part of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) and
b) Ireland (plain and simple).
Ireland is the island of Ireland, which is made up of the UK sector Ulster or Northern Ireland, and The Republic Of Ireland, sometimes called Ireland.
I won't say more than this, as you can argue until blue in face - Google this point and will be swapping source and counter source until the cows come home
On topic:-
Originally Posted by EL-BUD
Some opinion exists that we shouldn't have as many Regional airports[...] and instead focus on the bigger gateways of Shannon, Dublin, Cork, Knock.
Trouble is regional airports are so reliant on airlines such as FR in Ireland, and FR plus the likes of LS and Monarch and others in the UK.
I am biased with good reason - I fly BLK when possible because they are easy to use, I expect the same applies in Eire - Si IMO keep the regional airports.
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Well if Google, says it, it must be true. 
That function is just to predict the most likely search item. Most likely does not equal most correct...
Refer to Just a spotter's post for the definitive on this side issue, particularly his paragraph on the constitution (UK readers, check Google for what a consitution is
) To argue Ireland is the island of Ireland plus or minus this that and the other is pointless and only inviting passionate, but misplaced political pointscoring (for clarity - don't care if you want to do that, just don't do it here).
Agree Sligo is not long for this world due to all the points previosuly articulated. Also think Donegal struggles to make the case for itself. It's main strength is the remoteness of much of it's catchment area, but two key things go against it: proximity to Derry and number of people living within an hour of Carrickfin.
I think there is a role for Knock, Galway, Waterford and Kerry in Irish aviation. The key is to let the other 3 have routes to exotic and farflung places and concentrate on providing good service to a small number of key destinations, which must be destinations in their own right or key connection hubs. Decent frequency to Dublin, London, Amsterdam and perhaps 1/2 other UK cities should be the target for each regional airport.
The key to Government successfully supporting the regionals is, I believe, to ensure the cost to the taxpayer is:
That function is just to predict the most likely search item. Most likely does not equal most correct...Refer to Just a spotter's post for the definitive on this side issue, particularly his paragraph on the constitution (UK readers, check Google for what a consitution is
) To argue Ireland is the island of Ireland plus or minus this that and the other is pointless and only inviting passionate, but misplaced political pointscoring (for clarity - don't care if you want to do that, just don't do it here).Agree Sligo is not long for this world due to all the points previosuly articulated. Also think Donegal struggles to make the case for itself. It's main strength is the remoteness of much of it's catchment area, but two key things go against it: proximity to Derry and number of people living within an hour of Carrickfin.
I think there is a role for Knock, Galway, Waterford and Kerry in Irish aviation. The key is to let the other 3 have routes to exotic and farflung places and concentrate on providing good service to a small number of key destinations, which must be destinations in their own right or key connection hubs. Decent frequency to Dublin, London, Amsterdam and perhaps 1/2 other UK cities should be the target for each regional airport.
The key to Government successfully supporting the regionals is, I believe, to ensure the cost to the taxpayer is:
- Proportionate to the number of people ACTUALLY using the airport, with some lesser consideration also given to the volume of people in the catchment area
- Related to the socio-economic benefits (a "hard" assessment, not a fluffy FF one!) that having the airport bestows on the region
- Absolute transparency on PSOs or capital projects for each one