Taking the train instead
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dodging Flybe at EHASC
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1) There will be a direct train to Amsterdam within 3 years, as there will be direct trains to Germany.
2) As far as I am aware the airline industry has benefitted from large dollops of taxpayers cash in the past which has been conveniently written off, and still does as it's passengers use taxpayer funded forms of transport (i.e. roads and railways) to get to the respective terminals. Airtrack and Heathrow Express also (and will) benefit from taxpayer funded facilities and I use a taxpayer funded service when I fly to Sumburgh. And the airlines still benefit from taxpayer funded services now (see NATS).
3) Funnily enough I was under the impression that the Train Operators were private companies who responded to the whims of the market (allegedly).
4) But a fair and valid comparison is made -When I travel to Scotland via Southampton, I would rather be on a delayed plane then a delayed train.
2) As far as I am aware the airline industry has benefitted from large dollops of taxpayers cash in the past which has been conveniently written off, and still does as it's passengers use taxpayer funded forms of transport (i.e. roads and railways) to get to the respective terminals. Airtrack and Heathrow Express also (and will) benefit from taxpayer funded facilities and I use a taxpayer funded service when I fly to Sumburgh. And the airlines still benefit from taxpayer funded services now (see NATS).
3) Funnily enough I was under the impression that the Train Operators were private companies who responded to the whims of the market (allegedly).
4) But a fair and valid comparison is made -When I travel to Scotland via Southampton, I would rather be on a delayed plane then a delayed train.
I often think that the railways are mis-identifying the market they are competing with. London to Amsterdam in 5hrs 15 min - thats at least three hours longer than flying and rather puts a damper on a long weekend.
For short journeys air has a high fixed cost and low marginal costs. It doesn't cost an airline much more to fly from MAN - CDG as LHR - CDG (actually given the time it takes to taxi at LHR probably very little more).
Railways in the UK are great for getting to, from and around London but not much good for much else (some local regional journeys excepted). You are never going to compete with air from Plymouth to Edinburgh - even if you have to change at BHX.
It doesn't have to be like that. To see what I mean go to Switzerland. You can get from almost anywhere to anywhere effectively by train. Think of Zurich main station as the ATL of the Swiss rail network.
No, rail is competing with the car and to compete effectively it needs an integrated network. It just thinks that it is competing in the main with aviation.
As a matter of interest there is a group called the Swiss Railway Society that organises day trips by easyJet to GVA or ZRH with their user friendly rail stations where they trainspot for the day. Not quite my cup of tea but think about it, you couldn't do it without the plane but wouldn't do it without the train.
Anyway thats your two pennys worth from someone who wants to see a vastly improved rail network but thinks that building high speed lines is not the best way to spend limited funds.
For short journeys air has a high fixed cost and low marginal costs. It doesn't cost an airline much more to fly from MAN - CDG as LHR - CDG (actually given the time it takes to taxi at LHR probably very little more).
Railways in the UK are great for getting to, from and around London but not much good for much else (some local regional journeys excepted). You are never going to compete with air from Plymouth to Edinburgh - even if you have to change at BHX.
It doesn't have to be like that. To see what I mean go to Switzerland. You can get from almost anywhere to anywhere effectively by train. Think of Zurich main station as the ATL of the Swiss rail network.
No, rail is competing with the car and to compete effectively it needs an integrated network. It just thinks that it is competing in the main with aviation.
As a matter of interest there is a group called the Swiss Railway Society that organises day trips by easyJet to GVA or ZRH with their user friendly rail stations where they trainspot for the day. Not quite my cup of tea but think about it, you couldn't do it without the plane but wouldn't do it without the train.
Anyway thats your two pennys worth from someone who wants to see a vastly improved rail network but thinks that building high speed lines is not the best way to spend limited funds.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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I prefer trains to flying, and I am a pilot!
I would, however, respectfully question the economy of time in travelling Schiphol to London after a flight from the far east. It is 2hrs45 from AMS to Brussels south, followed by a 30 minute check-in for Eurostar, and then 2hrs to St Pancreas. All in all 5hrs15mins for a journey that takes 45 mins by air, followed by the same to get through LHR.
As romantic a traveller as I am, that does not add up.......
Wally.
I would, however, respectfully question the economy of time in travelling Schiphol to London after a flight from the far east. It is 2hrs45 from AMS to Brussels south, followed by a 30 minute check-in for Eurostar, and then 2hrs to St Pancreas. All in all 5hrs15mins for a journey that takes 45 mins by air, followed by the same to get through LHR.
As romantic a traveller as I am, that does not add up.......
Wally.
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Not a great fan of trains, but this last winter I had a dozen occassions to have to travel from Gatwick to Paris Orly on company business. Initially I took the company option and towards the end opted to self position on the Eurostar. Here is how the two compared:
On price the airfare was an average of £200 r/t by air. The Eurostar with a bit of flexibility was around £150 r/t leisure select (first class.) Both fares had advance booking requirements, and neither was flexible.
The journey by air, involved a taxi ride to LHR (no flights to Paris from LGW) on average 1 hour. Check-in was 2 hours in advance of ETD. Flight was 75 minutes blocks to blocks. Passport/luggage another 45 minutes. Wait of 30 minutes on average for coach to ORY 1.5 hours (if you struck lucky with the traffic). Total non delayed travelling time 7 hours. By train 50 minutes to St Pancras for a 1 hour check-in time. 2hours and 15 minutes to Gare du Nord. 1 hour (including ticket purchase time) on the RER subway train from Gare du Nord to Orly. Total time 5 hours 10 minutes.
The experience. By air involved a car journey in stop/start traffic around the M25 admiring the signs displaying 50, and wondering if that was in fact the highest recorded speed the cameras had witnessed that day? A shuffling queue at heathrow to deposit by mildy overweight suitcase on a scale and hoping that I wouldn't be punished by way of fine, or redeployment to a distant customer service desk for the transgression. Another long queue to endure the privilige of removing various parts of innocuous clothing, and still having my fillings set of the arch metal detector. Put aside all thoughts of financial acumen, and purchase a sandwhich and coffee for the thick end of £10. Eventually join another queue to board the flight, and queue to sit down. Once airborne receive some strangely branded, salty and otherwise bland bag of something that looked like a pretzel. Have a small glass of highly processed "orange juice". Realize that without some form of gastric asbestos lining, I would not be able to consume the superheated cup of proferred coffee, before the cleanup shift started 81 seconds after the initial serving. Land and taxi across 3 small countries to the gate. Walk across another small country to join the snaking immigartion line occupied by a collective assortment of travellers from various nations, who not only find queue a difficult spelling, but also an entirely alien concept. Breath a sigh of relief as my curiously battered and injured suitcase did at least arrive on the carousel. Retrace my airside ambulatory adventure landside, to the bus pick up point. Watch the drizzle for 30 minutes until the bus arrived. Pay the driver the equivalent of £18 for the stop/start (but mainly stop) trip around Le Emm 25 or whatever they called it. Eventually arriving at Orly hungry and tired.
By train, there was only ever a maximum wait of 15 minutes for the commuter train to St Pancras, No luxury, but there was time to read a newspaper before arriving at St Pancras. Up the escalators and through the security and passport checks with never more than a few minutes wait. Your luggage, you lug, so it never leaves your sight, and if it is overweight that is your problem, no one else cares. Time for a coffee and quick free WiFi session before boarding the comfy Eurostar train, and taking up your pre-booked seat of choice. Nice wide single or Duo seat with seat side powerpoint and plenty of legroom. Your suitcase is in a rack at the end of the carriage never far from your sight. Train pulls out of station and smoothly glides across Kent, through the tunnel, and zips across the French countryside as it races to Paris. You are served glasses of champagne or another tipple of choice, and a 3 course meal with tablecloth and metal cutlery. By the time your glass has been refreshed a couple of times and the last vestiges of coffee and chocolates are being cleared away, you notice CDG airport sliding past the outside panorama. Fifteen minutes later you arrive at Gare du nord. The 9 euro underground journey to Orly can be a bit of a faff with a suitcase, but nobody minds, and it is at least something to sit on if you have the misfortune to arrive during rush hour.
Arrive at Orly, with 2 hours to freshen up before your collegues who left the same time you did using option 1, arrive!
Plane, longer, cramped, queue, queue, queue, frustrating, wait, expensive, paupers catering, inconvenient, queue, queue, queue.
Train, relaxed, space, fast, comfortable, quicker journey time, little or no Queueing, food and drink in comfort, quiet.
It is a no brainer!
On price the airfare was an average of £200 r/t by air. The Eurostar with a bit of flexibility was around £150 r/t leisure select (first class.) Both fares had advance booking requirements, and neither was flexible.
The journey by air, involved a taxi ride to LHR (no flights to Paris from LGW) on average 1 hour. Check-in was 2 hours in advance of ETD. Flight was 75 minutes blocks to blocks. Passport/luggage another 45 minutes. Wait of 30 minutes on average for coach to ORY 1.5 hours (if you struck lucky with the traffic). Total non delayed travelling time 7 hours. By train 50 minutes to St Pancras for a 1 hour check-in time. 2hours and 15 minutes to Gare du Nord. 1 hour (including ticket purchase time) on the RER subway train from Gare du Nord to Orly. Total time 5 hours 10 minutes.
The experience. By air involved a car journey in stop/start traffic around the M25 admiring the signs displaying 50, and wondering if that was in fact the highest recorded speed the cameras had witnessed that day? A shuffling queue at heathrow to deposit by mildy overweight suitcase on a scale and hoping that I wouldn't be punished by way of fine, or redeployment to a distant customer service desk for the transgression. Another long queue to endure the privilige of removing various parts of innocuous clothing, and still having my fillings set of the arch metal detector. Put aside all thoughts of financial acumen, and purchase a sandwhich and coffee for the thick end of £10. Eventually join another queue to board the flight, and queue to sit down. Once airborne receive some strangely branded, salty and otherwise bland bag of something that looked like a pretzel. Have a small glass of highly processed "orange juice". Realize that without some form of gastric asbestos lining, I would not be able to consume the superheated cup of proferred coffee, before the cleanup shift started 81 seconds after the initial serving. Land and taxi across 3 small countries to the gate. Walk across another small country to join the snaking immigartion line occupied by a collective assortment of travellers from various nations, who not only find queue a difficult spelling, but also an entirely alien concept. Breath a sigh of relief as my curiously battered and injured suitcase did at least arrive on the carousel. Retrace my airside ambulatory adventure landside, to the bus pick up point. Watch the drizzle for 30 minutes until the bus arrived. Pay the driver the equivalent of £18 for the stop/start (but mainly stop) trip around Le Emm 25 or whatever they called it. Eventually arriving at Orly hungry and tired.
By train, there was only ever a maximum wait of 15 minutes for the commuter train to St Pancras, No luxury, but there was time to read a newspaper before arriving at St Pancras. Up the escalators and through the security and passport checks with never more than a few minutes wait. Your luggage, you lug, so it never leaves your sight, and if it is overweight that is your problem, no one else cares. Time for a coffee and quick free WiFi session before boarding the comfy Eurostar train, and taking up your pre-booked seat of choice. Nice wide single or Duo seat with seat side powerpoint and plenty of legroom. Your suitcase is in a rack at the end of the carriage never far from your sight. Train pulls out of station and smoothly glides across Kent, through the tunnel, and zips across the French countryside as it races to Paris. You are served glasses of champagne or another tipple of choice, and a 3 course meal with tablecloth and metal cutlery. By the time your glass has been refreshed a couple of times and the last vestiges of coffee and chocolates are being cleared away, you notice CDG airport sliding past the outside panorama. Fifteen minutes later you arrive at Gare du nord. The 9 euro underground journey to Orly can be a bit of a faff with a suitcase, but nobody minds, and it is at least something to sit on if you have the misfortune to arrive during rush hour.
Arrive at Orly, with 2 hours to freshen up before your collegues who left the same time you did using option 1, arrive!
Plane, longer, cramped, queue, queue, queue, frustrating, wait, expensive, paupers catering, inconvenient, queue, queue, queue.
Train, relaxed, space, fast, comfortable, quicker journey time, little or no Queueing, food and drink in comfort, quiet.
It is a no brainer!
