BHX Delays
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Location: Tracey Island
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JamesKirk
Read the post again.....It was not done too late......It was started at 2200.
groundhogbhx
I am not relying on what I was told........We laid it......It's the official line because it's the truth.......We don't have any access to weed killer or weakened fluid. You don't change the fluid for Anti-Ice and De-ice just the flow rate.
Now instead of all of you guessing and making things up. (I know its more fun but hey!...) lets put this to bed.
You are forgetting the people who actually worked solidly all night to try and keep it at bay. No one, and I mean No one who has worked winter ops on an airfield can claim 100% success rate. It's also not as simple as just going by the temperature....As someone else stated...You only remember the unsuccessful ops. Nice view from your warm offices.
Call100 If the de-icing was done too late, then is someone getting thier arse kicked for it, the -8 temperatures did'nt exactly sneak up on the airfield & leap on the runway did they? they were forecast even showing i believe on the BHX Fids system?
groundhogbhx
call100 Maybe what they told you was the official line and what they told us was what really happened, without recording equipment on our phones we will never know
Now instead of all of you guessing and making things up. (I know its more fun but hey!...) lets put this to bed.
You are forgetting the people who actually worked solidly all night to try and keep it at bay. No one, and I mean No one who has worked winter ops on an airfield can claim 100% success rate. It's also not as simple as just going by the temperature....As someone else stated...You only remember the unsuccessful ops. Nice view from your warm offices.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Hi call100
Agree that nobody involved in anti/de-icing work can claim a 100% success rate, but (from someone who was a hands on - no warm office - de-icing person 20 years ago), you may be able to provide info that will enable others to avoid similar problems in the future. So, what was make/specific type of liquid used that was unfortunately defeated by nature? I presume there is a manufacturer's name and specification on the drum?
Was there one or two applications?
Do you know what the minimum temperature experienced that night/morning was?
Agree that nobody involved in anti/de-icing work can claim a 100% success rate, but (from someone who was a hands on - no warm office - de-icing person 20 years ago), you may be able to provide info that will enable others to avoid similar problems in the future. So, what was make/specific type of liquid used that was unfortunately defeated by nature? I presume there is a manufacturer's name and specification on the drum?
Was there one or two applications?
Do you know what the minimum temperature experienced that night/morning was?
Join Date: May 2002
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I just find it strange that airports with real winter weather but similar in climate to the UK never seem to have a problem. FRA for example only ever seems to close for 20 mins a time in heavy snow, whilst a fleet of ploughs clear all 3 runways then continue around miles of taxiways! Britain seems to struggle with any unusual weather, remember the wrong type of leaves on the railways fiasco a few years back?
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AirportsEd
It's not kept in drums we have large storage tanks. I don't think it would be advantageous to give the make. Suffice to say my own opinion is that since the Eco squad got involved everything is less effective.
there was more than one application,
I think the minimum temp was -7 but I don't have any figures in front of me. However, I don't believe the temperature is the only factor when this sort of thing happens. The snow (Little as it was) settles on the top of the de-icing fluid the temps then freeze that and things go down hill from there on. It doesn't matter how much we debrief it. Nature won. Scientists will give you exact reasons for what happens but I doubt some on here would be satisfied.
RED WINGS
I think that pure snow is a different case. It is also dependent on the type of snow etc. etc etc. . I think you will also find that manpower and equipment investment in Europe may give them the edge......Just remember the people fighting to keep airports open. People should be less eager to assume that they made a mistake....Oh Yes, getting the facts would help...
It's not kept in drums we have large storage tanks. I don't think it would be advantageous to give the make. Suffice to say my own opinion is that since the Eco squad got involved everything is less effective.
there was more than one application,
I think the minimum temp was -7 but I don't have any figures in front of me. However, I don't believe the temperature is the only factor when this sort of thing happens. The snow (Little as it was) settles on the top of the de-icing fluid the temps then freeze that and things go down hill from there on. It doesn't matter how much we debrief it. Nature won. Scientists will give you exact reasons for what happens but I doubt some on here would be satisfied.
RED WINGS
I think that pure snow is a different case. It is also dependent on the type of snow etc. etc etc. . I think you will also find that manpower and equipment investment in Europe may give them the edge......Just remember the people fighting to keep airports open. People should be less eager to assume that they made a mistake....Oh Yes, getting the facts would help...
Join Date: May 2002
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No assumption, just commenting! Although your spot on with the equipment, the germans sure do know how to do everything to an excellent standard! No silly last minute stand changes to please the inbound ryan air either 
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AirportsEd
Most environmentally friendly runway de-icing fluids are potassium acetate based. Usually with a thickener added to improve holdover time.
There are also Anhydrous sodium acetate based solid pellets used on some airfields, often pre-wetted with fluid as they are dispensed to make them stick to the surface. (All work better when put down ahead of the weather, as I believe they were that night).
All the new fluids seem much thinner than the glycol based stuff of old, that killed fish 10 miles down stream of any airfield and some had cosh sheets as long as your arm! So were not very nice to people handling it either. Good stuff because it would often stand up to snow fall longer than the new stuff but was not a nice substance at all!
That said, ALL fluids old and new will only hold out for so long, they will all end up saturated and ineffective sooner or later. Adding more fluid at the appropriate time can sometimes help and keep the runway open but eventually closing the runway and sweeping it may be the only option, and you can often get to this point very quickly and with little warning.
Having spent some time dealing with snow, I have often found that no two situations are the same. Time of day / night rate and time of snow fall, ground, surface air temperatures, wind speed and direction. And yes type of snow, all come into play. There is no magic text book / crystal ball and of course there will always be a Legion of experts out there after the event (witness the Fiction Factory above, more to these guys later).
To the guy in charge and the ops people running around that night you probably did the best you could with the situation the weather served up! Thanks guys. Aviation safety people being what they are if lessons can be learnt they will be and improved next time where they can be.
To the agricultural brigade above, most of who seem to be aircraft de-icing experts. It is worth noting that it is common practice to mix aircraft de-icing fluid with water (75/25 fluid water mix is common) warm it up a bit any spray it all over. Now this may be fine and perfectly safe for an aircraft which only needs a limited hold over time but, as a runway de-icing person, mixing (expensive) fluids with water is something we never do, scares the hell out of me, but I’m pretty sure its safe because the pilots / airlines seem happy enough to taxi out and take off with it. Although I have heard many crews request a repeat application when delayed on departure. Perhaps if you served the fluid up neat it may stay active longer. But perhaps it’s a little more complex than that, I’m sure you guys know what your doing.
Oh yes and re equipment, the primary kit at BHX is only a few years old, yes some of the back up stuff is older, but all probably younger than much of the aircraft handling kit I've seen lately new paint or not
.
Most environmentally friendly runway de-icing fluids are potassium acetate based. Usually with a thickener added to improve holdover time.
There are also Anhydrous sodium acetate based solid pellets used on some airfields, often pre-wetted with fluid as they are dispensed to make them stick to the surface. (All work better when put down ahead of the weather, as I believe they were that night).
All the new fluids seem much thinner than the glycol based stuff of old, that killed fish 10 miles down stream of any airfield and some had cosh sheets as long as your arm! So were not very nice to people handling it either. Good stuff because it would often stand up to snow fall longer than the new stuff but was not a nice substance at all!
That said, ALL fluids old and new will only hold out for so long, they will all end up saturated and ineffective sooner or later. Adding more fluid at the appropriate time can sometimes help and keep the runway open but eventually closing the runway and sweeping it may be the only option, and you can often get to this point very quickly and with little warning.
Having spent some time dealing with snow, I have often found that no two situations are the same. Time of day / night rate and time of snow fall, ground, surface air temperatures, wind speed and direction. And yes type of snow, all come into play. There is no magic text book / crystal ball and of course there will always be a Legion of experts out there after the event (witness the Fiction Factory above, more to these guys later).
To the guy in charge and the ops people running around that night you probably did the best you could with the situation the weather served up! Thanks guys. Aviation safety people being what they are if lessons can be learnt they will be and improved next time where they can be.
To the agricultural brigade above, most of who seem to be aircraft de-icing experts. It is worth noting that it is common practice to mix aircraft de-icing fluid with water (75/25 fluid water mix is common) warm it up a bit any spray it all over. Now this may be fine and perfectly safe for an aircraft which only needs a limited hold over time but, as a runway de-icing person, mixing (expensive) fluids with water is something we never do, scares the hell out of me, but I’m pretty sure its safe because the pilots / airlines seem happy enough to taxi out and take off with it. Although I have heard many crews request a repeat application when delayed on departure. Perhaps if you served the fluid up neat it may stay active longer. But perhaps it’s a little more complex than that, I’m sure you guys know what your doing.
Oh yes and re equipment, the primary kit at BHX is only a few years old, yes some of the back up stuff is older, but all probably younger than much of the aircraft handling kit I've seen lately new paint or not
.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Maybe the answer is to use some of the allegedly long-term jobless (who are not genuinely ill) and give them shovels and instructions that if the shovel is not glowing with snow clearing activity then all their social benefits will disappear sharpish. Of course the genuine workless and ill won't be affected but those who are happy to claim and maybe enjoy the black economy's benefits at the same time can earn their extra spending money.
Genuine work seekers won't mind some "social work" when not searching for work.
Genuine work seekers won't mind some "social work" when not searching for work.
