Bmibaby

[Tart With A Cart]

Could not have said it better myself!!!

What a !!!!!!!

[Mr. Blonde]

Otherwise, someone like you who is relatively senior looses their job while hypothetically, someone who joined last week, but at a different base keeps theirs.

Unfortunately that IS the case here, MAN & CWL staff are NOT at risk of redundancy regardless of their seniority to BHX/EMA crew.

Who decided this? Should there not have been a consultation period about this first?

We were told they are using the Teeside Closure as a precedent (where the Unions fought for it to only affect Teeside jobs) - I am sorry but that was different people, different circumstances and different economic situation!!

All that said IF (and it's a big if) it does come to compulsory redundancies then I hope that common sense prevails and it is done using LIFO as this is the only sensible and fair way to do it......

Mr B.

[INKJET]

Veulo

A strange post if i might say so!

There are many cabin crew in baby who are bmi (diamond class) old school, and they bring a level of service to the baby product that other Loco's can only dream about. Yes the airframes are older than Ryanair/Easyjet but only a thrid of the age of Jet2 737 fleet, so what! looked after they can and do provide sterling service (another airline that ran far newer aircraft!!) last summer was probably the hardest they have worked since new, often doing 3 round trip meds a day with little down time, due mainly to the late delivery of new aircraft.

Most will start out summer 09 with new paint and all leather seats and probably not working quite so hard, this is a (sad) set back, driven in part by the timing of lease renewals during the transfer of ownership to Lufthansa not helped by the current econmic situation and of course the increased competion (mainly from Ryanair) at BHX and on its key routes.

If you are looking for the cheapest way to get to AGP travel ryanair, if however your are a family and want to sit together and don't want the crush on the airs stairs and go on holiday in more than what your stood up in then you'll find baby a better product and no dearer in many cases (20kg worth -v- Ryans 13?15? )

Finally if you are travelling with family who are RPM (reduced personal mobility) then we treat you as that, ie someone who has special needs and need special treatment, not like a pain in the arse that slows down turnaround time.

There is room for more than one airline on most of baby's routes, certainly in normal times, these aren't normal times

Hud/FR don't worry baby will be around for the Summer of 09, then its up to the new owners where they want to take it, lets wait for the winter 09/10 program ,you never know when you might want/or need a job with another airline!

Cheers

[SR71]

Unfortunately that IS the case here, MAN & CWL staff are NOT at risk of redundancy regardless of their seniority to BHX/EMA crew.

Surely this is what the consultation will seek to establish? Whatever the company are saying now, might not transpire to be the case...

Does anyone know what criteria they will be seeking to use as of now?

If not, refer the above.

It'd be ironic if they apply the LIFO principle, but merely at BHX. The problem is they don't want to use it on a wider basis (for flightdeck) because of the potential associated costs with re-basing....

Disclaw Publishing - Employment Law, unfair dismissal, redundancy pay

I would not have thought that, bearing in mind the demographics of the workforce, LIFO in this case could be shown to be age discriminatory?

[sjm]

To my knowledge Teeside was closed and all crews offered relocation to any base of there choice, no redundancies.
A/c were kept and we continued to recruit to replace those who chose to leave.

[INKJET]

sjm

Another (more accurate?) version was that Teesside was closed to allow baby to move the aircraft to its then new super base......yep you guessed it BHX

[bmibabyfc]

baby charge for baggage as well.

[16024]

Vuelo, Vuelo, Vuelo...

Inkjet:
Not sure if you didn't shoot yourself in the foot a bit with the first part of your post.
Are you saying that grumpy old Vuelo should only be grateful if a Midland veteran hobbles up the aisle towards him muttering about how it "wasn't like this in the 707 days"!
Otherwise, yes good points, well made. And it's hard to see how his comments are helpful.
What's your agenda, Vuelo?

[CHfour]

http://www.parissmith.co.uk/publicat...-11-08.pdf.pdf

I'm no lawyer but there seems to be nothing in the above ruling to prevent
Baby from honouring their long standing comitment to use LIFO provided it's not the sole criterion for selection. There are many reasons, however, for them to hide behind "employment law" and dump LIFO as it will be easier/cheaper to single out the Birmingham staff. It would also clear the way for any selective redundancies in the future at other bases and in other parts of the group if they pulled it off.

[avrodamo]

I just hope for all our sakes that BALPA and the company can come to a decision soon that limits pilot numbers to be lost and that puts me and my family out of our misery sooner than later

[allanmack]

Having been through the redundancy mill a couple of times I know what people at Baby (and others) will be going through. My advice is to stay strong because those who do always come out on the right side and a bit stronger too. So, if you are affected keep your chin up.

From a PAX point of view I will be honest and must confess to having not had the greatest experience with Baby. I have used the services from GLA to both EMA and BHX a few times over the last year and to be honest I would place them third behind FR and EZY. I find the planes quite tatty, and although the CC are professional they also look quite tatty in their so called uniforms. All my fights with FR and EZY this year have been on time or early but I'm afraid Baby have been late ( 3 flights out of 6) albeit the max was 45mins. I do hope Baby continue to offer competition to the rest (prices are better than FlyBe) but some smartening up in a number of areas needs to happen.

[easyprison]

Lufty have no interest in it so they are merely shedding unprofitable routes until a buyer can be found.

easyJet for sure has no interest in buying baby.

[brian_dromey]

From a PAX point of view I will be honest and must confess to having not had the greatest experience with Baby. I have used the services from GLA to both EMA and BHX a few times over the last year and to be honest I would place them third behind FR and EZY. I find the planes quite tatty, and although the CC are professional they also look quite tatty in their so called uniforms. All my fights with FR and EZY this year have been on time or early but I'm afraid Baby have been late ( 3 flights out of 6) albeit the max was 45mins.

As a regular WW user my experiences have been very similar, but the delays have been worse. 1 hour seems to be a standard delay with baby but it has been up to 4 on occasion. I have noticed that they are not very good a turning the aircraft quickly, even when the aircraft arrives early we still depart 10-20 minutes late. No wonder FR and U2 are picking off the best of Baby's routes.

That said, I would not like to see baby go, with a bit of care, attention to detail and German efficiency I think they could go well.

Brian.

[Copenhagen]

Lets stick to facts and not opinions

FLIGHTONTIME.info - Low Cost Airline Delays & Punctuality in the UK

Tells it all. Flybe is more punctual than Baby, but baby is more punctual than EasyJet.

Birmingham is WW's least punctual hub..

FLIGHTONTIME.info - bmi baby Flight Delays & Punctuality in the UK

[brian_dromey]

copenhagen, my post was not an opinion. It is based on 19 WW flights, ORK-MAN and vv in 2008 and as many more in the 12 months prior to that. Teh delays on this route are continous and happen to me almost every time I fly, ranging from the usual 20mins right the way up to very occasional 4 hour delays. This experience is common and the last two frequent travellers I have spoken to have also abandoned WW where-ever possible because it is unreliable.

Perhaps the ORK-MAN route is a single exception, but from what I have seen of the departure boards at MAN T3, I dont think it is. Deny it all you like but the reality from WW passengers is that the other option on the route will get their passengers where they want to be, when they want to be there and in far nicer surroundings.

Those are the facts, as I see them. My opinion, though is that WW could be a good little airline with a bit of spit and polish, preferibly of the German type.

Brian.

[fade to grey]

I am sorry to hear this,
I was with bmir when the 146 fleet was finished in 2002 and alot of me pilot mates moved to baby at BHX/EMA, I hope some good will come of this eventually.

A dark dark year for aviation.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

A lot of crews and airlines will be watching this. I heard that Balpa support LIFO (not sure if by total number or by base though) but it will only be tested in law when an airline applies it. A test case could be on it's way.

[SR71]

I'm with CHFour.

There isn't anything to suggest LIFO as sole criteria will fail, just a note to proceed with caution where the demographics of the workforce might open you up to a charge of age discrimination.

If they choose not to use LIFO uniquely, how will they skew the matrix of criteria to affect only BHX crews, especially when all bmibaby pilots fly a common type, have no base allocated in their contract (except, as I understand, on a seniority list that the company want to ignore!) and might be willing to relocate at nil cost to the company?

Again, if it gets to the courts, isn't this a hugely significant (for pilots who want to believe in LIFO) case to be won?

[nitefiter]

Comparing what happened in MME to what is happening in BHX is not reasonable.MME was a base closure with no net reduction in aircraft or crew numbers.Flightdeck crews were offered a new base or could take redundancy,some chose to move and some took the package. I believe the company waived the outstanding training bonds for pilots not wishing to relocate,a relocation package was also available.
IMHO LIFO is the only way to go here and BALPA should fight for this.It would have a minimal impact on other bases as most (not all) of the less senior pilots are at BHX anyway.
I truly feel for my colleagues at BHX at this time,We could be next. Baby has its faults but one thing it does have is, a hard working dedicated staff base.Give us the equipment and well do the job.

[Topslide6]

Again, if it gets to the courts, isn't this a hugely significant (for pilots who want to believe in LIFO) case to be won?

Be under no illusions, what happens here will have serious consequences for the future of the whole of the UK airline industry. Personally, however, I have faith in the both the management and the BALPA CC/negotiating team to come up with an acceptable solution. Call me old fashioned, but i'm not sure that discussing an internal company issue of this magnitude on what is effectively a 'spotters' forum is particularly appropriate.


Pizza Express,

Just another sad individual with an agenda. It's truly amazing how many of the posters to this thread have less than 30 posts to their credit. Your grand total? 2. Show just one ounce of evidence to back up your opinions and untruths and people might listen to you. On the other hand, given that each of the individual points you have made is incorrect in it's entirety, that will be very hard to do, however.