Time to spare, go by air - according to ASA ruling
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to spare, go by air - according to ASA ruling
RyanAir's Eurostar claim banned
The Advertising Standards Authority upheld a complaint by Eurostar.
"Ryanair defended its position, saying that time and costs involved in getting to an airport or railway station were irrelevant as they applied to both modes of transport."
Perhaps the ASA assumes it's quicker/cheaper to get to Waterloo than to Stansted, regardless of where you live in the London area?
(When the Times checked the respective websites, the cheapest Ryanair flight available was £54.89 and the cheapest Eurostar journey was £125.19.)
Some might suspect there's an anti-aviation 'green' element at the ASA. The previous ASA ruling re CO2 emissions referred to in the BBC report was even more curious.
FL
The Advertising Standards Authority upheld a complaint by Eurostar.
"Ryanair defended its position, saying that time and costs involved in getting to an airport or railway station were irrelevant as they applied to both modes of transport."
Perhaps the ASA assumes it's quicker/cheaper to get to Waterloo than to Stansted, regardless of where you live in the London area?
(When the Times checked the respective websites, the cheapest Ryanair flight available was £54.89 and the cheapest Eurostar journey was £125.19.)
Some might suspect there's an anti-aviation 'green' element at the ASA. The previous ASA ruling re CO2 emissions referred to in the BBC report was even more curious.
FL
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was a chap from the ASA on the Beeb this morning explaining the ruling. Apparently Ryanair didn't factor in the time taken or cost of getting to Stansted and then getting from Charleroi into central Brussels. Ryanairs punctuality claim was also based on some 2 year old figures compiled by the BBC. Having used Eurostar to both Paris and Brussels I personally have never found the range of cheapo tickets available that Ryanair offer but in terms of speed and comfort the train wins hands down!
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Age: 61
Posts: 1,272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have thought that a much more relevant factor would be the amount of time you have to waste at the airport before you ever get to the plane, courtesy of the Ivory Tower Idiots (aka DoT...sorry DfT).
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Train by far... more frequent service than flying and no rebooking fees for Eurostar either. Nice to sit by and watch the country side by at 150MPH with a glass or wine in hand.
Besides the security hassles (and here some airports are worst than others) we have the issue of airport taxes vs no railway station taxes..
If I foot the bill I would favour the use of train just to avoid to have to pay the high airport taxes and obviously to be harassed by security staff just because I wear a baseball cap.
And trains do tend to cross some wonderfull landscapes.
Rwy in Sight
If I foot the bill I would favour the use of train just to avoid to have to pay the high airport taxes and obviously to be harassed by security staff just because I wear a baseball cap.
And trains do tend to cross some wonderfull landscapes.
Rwy in Sight
Last edited by Rwy in Sight; 22nd Aug 2007 at 19:34.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
we have the issue of airport taxes vs no railway station taxes..
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under the clag EGKA
Posts: 1,028
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have left Henfield Sussex at 10.00, collected visas from Brussels and been back in the office by 15.00. This included driving to Ashford, taxi to the Embassy several miles outside the centre, waiting to see the ambassador and taking the bus back to the station. I couldn't have done that flying.
I find taking the train to Australia a bit of a faff though.
I find taking the train to Australia a bit of a faff though.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess most people travel from their homes first thing in the morning and back at night and not every one has the "luxury of living" (?) in Central London. Euro Rail departures mean getting from home to Waterloo now - OK if you are a SWT customer and live south of the River - St Pancras from November 07 with FCC/Thameslink - through rushhour traffic and using commuter trains and London Underground (not a pleasant experience). And whilst it might be 15 minutes quicker on Eurostar from November - UK tax payers have spent £5bn in capital subsidies building the line to the tunnel (and more in operating subsidies for the BR/LT network) - the same cost as BAA LHR T5.
The plane versus train argument also applies to your Belgian destination as well - again moving around Brussels from Gare du Midi is awful most of the time.
The key here is surely choice, price and convenience and total travel time for the consumer. Perhaps FR or one of the tabloids could do a series of races from places other than Traflagar Square (the usual starting point) or the BT Tower (starting point for the 60's London to New York Air race) and see which starting/finishing point combination is the best for each mode of transport.
A
The plane versus train argument also applies to your Belgian destination as well - again moving around Brussels from Gare du Midi is awful most of the time.
The key here is surely choice, price and convenience and total travel time for the consumer. Perhaps FR or one of the tabloids could do a series of races from places other than Traflagar Square (the usual starting point) or the BT Tower (starting point for the 60's London to New York Air race) and see which starting/finishing point combination is the best for each mode of transport.
A
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps FR or one of the tabloids could do a series of races from places other than Traflagar Square (the usual starting point) or the BT Tower (starting point for the 60's London to New York Air race) and see which starting/finishing point combination is the best for each mode of transport.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The train is quicker and more convenient between the centres of the two cities, although not necessarily cheaper. I spoke at a European aviation conference in Brussels last November and felt a little guilty about travelling by train but, living in central London, it gave me a much needed time advantage. However, the ASA ignores the fact that not all travellers live in the centre of London nor do they necessarily wish to get to the centre of Brussels.
IMHO, Ryanair make a valid point: Time and costs involved in getting to an airport or railway station apply to both modes of transport.
Surely anyone capable of buying a ticket and travelling abroad is capable of weighing up which is quicker/cheaper in their particular circumstances, without the need for the ASA to intervene to protect them from possibly being "misled" by an advertisement?
FL
PS. I felt less guilty when I discovered I was by no means the only one.
IMHO, Ryanair make a valid point: Time and costs involved in getting to an airport or railway station apply to both modes of transport.
Surely anyone capable of buying a ticket and travelling abroad is capable of weighing up which is quicker/cheaper in their particular circumstances, without the need for the ASA to intervene to protect them from possibly being "misled" by an advertisement?
FL
PS. I felt less guilty when I discovered I was by no means the only one.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Surely anyone capable of buying a ticket and travelling abroad is capable of weighing up which is quicker/cheaper in their particular circumstances, without the need for the ASA to intervene to protect them from possibly being "misled" by an advertisement?
The next thing that will happen will be that we are told flying is bad for business.
(all said with tongue firmly in ones cheek)
My new life up the back means I fly regularly with FR on the PIK-BVA and PIK-MRS routes. In my experience FR overestimate the scheduled time on these routes and unless there is some unexpected delay, we are always well inside the allotted timespan. On the odd occassion that I have flown another route with them this is usually also the case.
Now, could it be that this is deliberate tactic to massage the punctuality statistics? If so, they are beating themselves about the head when they try to compare their scheduled times with that of competing forms of transport.
Now, could it be that this is deliberate tactic to massage the punctuality statistics? If so, they are beating themselves about the head when they try to compare their scheduled times with that of competing forms of transport.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leicester UK
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely a timetable that accurately reflects transit time + % for delays is favourable to one which is so tight that it's almost impossible to arrive on time. It's not massaging the figures it's common sense? (I don't work for FR before you ask. In fact I don't work in the aviation industry at all).
I believe one of the train franchises in the South East requested to amend a timetable a couple of years ago because it was constantly being penalised on punctuality. Apparently it was almost impossible to stay on time. There average delay was something small like 5-7 minutes so they requested the timetable be amended to add 7 minutes to the journey time to give a truer reflection of what the travelling public could reasonably expect. The Gov Dept involved refused the request as it was claimed the Train Company was massaging it's figures
Rob
I believe one of the train franchises in the South East requested to amend a timetable a couple of years ago because it was constantly being penalised on punctuality. Apparently it was almost impossible to stay on time. There average delay was something small like 5-7 minutes so they requested the timetable be amended to add 7 minutes to the journey time to give a truer reflection of what the travelling public could reasonably expect. The Gov Dept involved refused the request as it was claimed the Train Company was massaging it's figures
Rob
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In my head
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree that a realistic built in contingency for "headwinds" is a fair argument for publishing an overestimate and I agree Ryanair do it frequently perhaps because they had the opportunity to do so when they went where no man went before!
As for bleatings by nouveaux train companies who can't keep to ages old timetables run on the same old rails
then I am not so sympathetic.
As for bleatings by nouveaux train companies who can't keep to ages old timetables run on the same old rails
then I am not so sympathetic.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO, Ryanair make a valid point: Time and costs involved in getting to an airport or railway station apply to both modes of transport.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SE Asia
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Security
I have not travelled on Eurostar however from earlier posts it seems that security regulations are considerably less onerous on the train/station operator. Why is that, (well I know why it is, because our regulators react to past attacks/threats as oppose to trying to prevent new methods/targets). I think Ryanair or any other airline could claim they are not operating on a level playing field in that respect. It does however highlight that the security regime is a major disincentive for people to fly. On the green issue anyone have a 'true' comparison per pax of CO2 emmisions comparing the two, to be fair this should include the CO2 produced in generating the electricity to run the trains.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re: Flying Lawyer's point on cost - not only can the train be more expensive, it doesn't have APD levied on it either, does it?
That said, you don't see AF/LH moaning about the new Paris-Frankfurt high speed service or the other high speed trains pinching their business, they are just moving into other sectors where the aviation model makes more sense. If MOL was around in the 1800s we'd still be getting around by the O'Leary Coach and Horse Company because any time trains tried to get started he would have found a way to bully them out of business.
[view from the ground - the reason France has low transportation emissions is because their trains are electric - and thus 70-80% nuclear]
That said, you don't see AF/LH moaning about the new Paris-Frankfurt high speed service or the other high speed trains pinching their business, they are just moving into other sectors where the aviation model makes more sense. If MOL was around in the 1800s we'd still be getting around by the O'Leary Coach and Horse Company because any time trains tried to get started he would have found a way to bully them out of business.
[view from the ground - the reason France has low transportation emissions is because their trains are electric - and thus 70-80% nuclear]
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's all irrelevant if you live t'up North as you avoid the smoke as much as possible. Our only option is to fly (not with FR) as trains do not go too well ower the watter; and the prop on the ferry damages the runway somewhat!
