TUI/ First Choice
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As an Airbus skipper in FCA can the new company (TUI travel what a shoite name!) make you redundant based on the fleet you fly ? Surely the LIFI list should protect you from that !
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Takoon,
I would suggest that both of the CC's would object to that type of business objectivity. I'm sure LIFO will hold it's place pretty much if redundancies were to occur.
Given the volume of aircraft on order, I think that looks doubtful - but who knows...... The synergy savings will mostly be amongst ground related operations within both groups.
Yes, I think personally the days of the Airbus look limited, but don't view that as necessarily a bad thing - I'm sure you'll be finding a Boeing on your ticket in the medium term
30W
FCA 757/767
I would suggest that both of the CC's would object to that type of business objectivity. I'm sure LIFO will hold it's place pretty much if redundancies were to occur.
Given the volume of aircraft on order, I think that looks doubtful - but who knows...... The synergy savings will mostly be amongst ground related operations within both groups.
Yes, I think personally the days of the Airbus look limited, but don't view that as necessarily a bad thing - I'm sure you'll be finding a Boeing on your ticket in the medium term
30W
FCA 757/767
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Takoon,
Ah, but that ole steam thing you refer to goes faster than your electric thing - and those converted seem to find it much more pleasing and fun to actually fly.... Understand the sentiment though!
I'm sure there's many months to go before all this starts shaking out properly into what the full airline plan will be, and what part we ALL play within it - me thinks a long summer ahead
Ah, but that ole steam thing you refer to goes faster than your electric thing - and those converted seem to find it much more pleasing and fun to actually fly.... Understand the sentiment though!
I'm sure there's many months to go before all this starts shaking out properly into what the full airline plan will be, and what part we ALL play within it - me thinks a long summer ahead
Join Date: Oct 2004
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this is a good match
tui is well known for bucket and spade holidays as first choice has moved away from that in the last few years and more into long haul holidays.
a good mix
tui is well known for bucket and spade holidays as first choice has moved away from that in the last few years and more into long haul holidays.
a good mix
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Regarding the anti-trust case ahead, indeed both of them, I think the market has fundamentaly changed since the MYT-FCA ruling.
The low cost carriers have decimated the short haul charter market over the last 5 years and hence all the re-organisation and shifting of 'core' businesses in different directions. It was always said that the 'Big 4' was one too many tour operators then, so now I don't see that '3' is necerssarily best or needed. The competition has increased by at least 2 huge players in Easy and Ryan and others are on the rise like Jet2. I don't personally see a reason why either merger would be prevented through anti-trust, but that's just my opinion.....
PP
The low cost carriers have decimated the short haul charter market over the last 5 years and hence all the re-organisation and shifting of 'core' businesses in different directions. It was always said that the 'Big 4' was one too many tour operators then, so now I don't see that '3' is necerssarily best or needed. The competition has increased by at least 2 huge players in Easy and Ryan and others are on the rise like Jet2. I don't personally see a reason why either merger would be prevented through anti-trust, but that's just my opinion.....
PP
Just reading the TTG website and one analyst thinks this could be a move by Peter long and TUI to block the TCX/MYT merger. As the EU may well throw out both mergers siting not enough competition, as we have gone from 4 big players to 2 in the space of six weeks.
http://www.ttglive.com/NTTG_fullstor...ArticleID=6681
http://www.ttglive.com/NTTG_fullstor...ArticleID=6681
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I think there is genuine belief that both deals will pass through the Monopolies Commission without problem. The low cost market does give far more choice than a few years ago. Also, the decision to reject the MYT/FCA tie up some years ago was at a later date ruled as an illegal decision by the Europen courts. I don't see the Monopolies commision wanting to get dragged down a route this time where they WILL end up in the European Court of Justice, with a legal presedent having already been set there!
There is no doubting that the MYT/TCX merger creates a strong united company within the market place. I think FCA and TUI have looked at how they compete effectively within that new market. From a pure business perspective, I think Peter Long has achieved another masterstroke. He has found a strong way ahead for what is currently First Choice, protecting both the business and it's shareholders - surely what a Chief Exec should be doing?
30W
There is no doubting that the MYT/TCX merger creates a strong united company within the market place. I think FCA and TUI have looked at how they compete effectively within that new market. From a pure business perspective, I think Peter Long has achieved another masterstroke. He has found a strong way ahead for what is currently First Choice, protecting both the business and it's shareholders - surely what a Chief Exec should be doing?
30W
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From a pure business perspective, I think Peter Long has achieved another masterstroke. He has found a strong way ahead for what is currently First Choice, protecting both the business and it's shareholders - surely what a Chief Exec should be doing?
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........yes and stuff the customers, what do they matter ?
There will be choice within the marketplace, in fact, plenty of it. I don't see hoiw that stuffs the customer? The range of opportunities that might develop from a combined group may well benefit the customer - new destiantions, more specialised holiday opportunities etc....
Time will tell, but a statement of it stuffs the customer seems wholely unsubstantiated..........
30W
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It does reduce the number of companies offering holidays but all the same routes/holidays will be offered so I'm assumming your statement concerns costs (i.e. less competition therefore less competitive prices etc).
I belive this to be a great thing not only for the companies involved but also for the customers. RobT100 - you seem to have looked at it very simply as 'fewer companies therefore less competition therefore higher prices'.
If Thomsonfly (TUI) and FCA remained separate, the giant created by TCX and MYT may have been too much to compete against as individual companies eventually resulting in their downfall or just leaving the 'package holiday' market resulting in the TCX and MYT merger with a virtual monopoly ... at least with this second merger, a true competition exists between two similarly placed companies in the market place.
I belive this to be a great thing not only for the companies involved but also for the customers. RobT100 - you seem to have looked at it very simply as 'fewer companies therefore less competition therefore higher prices'.
If Thomsonfly (TUI) and FCA remained separate, the giant created by TCX and MYT may have been too much to compete against as individual companies eventually resulting in their downfall or just leaving the 'package holiday' market resulting in the TCX and MYT merger with a virtual monopoly ... at least with this second merger, a true competition exists between two similarly placed companies in the market place.
Sorry to but-in with a side issue which very probably wouldn't happen BUT you need to be aware that LIFO is dead.
As the method is gauranteed in the airline business to select younger rather than older people it will certainly contravene the age discrimination legislation that came into law on 1 October 2006.
Therefore you now need to use another system that reflects the 'needs' of the business. Basically you identify the important factors to consider such as skill, flexibility and so on, and give each a relative weighting. Then arrange for each employee in the affected areas to be evaluated by at least two people.
Nobody knows how this would be achieved in an airline making operational crew redundant. It would appear that Simulator scores and annual appraisal records (where conducted) would be the only measures that fit the guidelines... Opening up a totally new and squirming can of worms.
Its a massive issue that nobody much has picked up on yet in the world of UK aviation.
Cheers
WWW
(Mrs Welshman is a HR manager)
As the method is gauranteed in the airline business to select younger rather than older people it will certainly contravene the age discrimination legislation that came into law on 1 October 2006.
Therefore you now need to use another system that reflects the 'needs' of the business. Basically you identify the important factors to consider such as skill, flexibility and so on, and give each a relative weighting. Then arrange for each employee in the affected areas to be evaluated by at least two people.
Nobody knows how this would be achieved in an airline making operational crew redundant. It would appear that Simulator scores and annual appraisal records (where conducted) would be the only measures that fit the guidelines... Opening up a totally new and squirming can of worms.
Its a massive issue that nobody much has picked up on yet in the world of UK aviation.
Cheers
WWW
(Mrs Welshman is a HR manager)
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I well remember when Britannia suddenly decided to get rid of their 737-200's and replace with about half the number of 757's resulting in having about 200 too many Pilots around 1993/4 and Roger Burnell ( Accountant) wanted to make most of the Luton crews redundant but as there were a lot of senior people there he had to be told that LIFO applied. He did not understand that idea. Eventually with a good early retirement package they avoided compulsory redundancies as the market elsewhere was good.
God help those if HR butt in and takeover and decide who has to go assuming Pilot redundancy is back on the agenda which no doubt it will be in time.
Britannia even put on a meeting chaired by Nick Ross to explain the new strategy What they did not say was that BAL was being lined up for sale with Thomson. Since TUI took over it seems to me from the outside that they have been losing their way and not sure what and where the market is headed.
God help those if HR butt in and takeover and decide who has to go assuming Pilot redundancy is back on the agenda which no doubt it will be in time.
Britannia even put on a meeting chaired by Nick Ross to explain the new strategy What they did not say was that BAL was being lined up for sale with Thomson. Since TUI took over it seems to me from the outside that they have been losing their way and not sure what and where the market is headed.
Sorry WWW but what you say is not true.
LIFO is still in use until a court rules otherwise. There has to be a test case and a president set before anything is ruled illegal.
Mrs Jonty is an employment solicitor
LIFO is still in use until a court rules otherwise. There has to be a test case and a president set before anything is ruled illegal.
Mrs Jonty is an employment solicitor
Last edited by Jonty; 21st Mar 2007 at 08:29.
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It was not long ago that a complete freeze on promotions and recruitment was put in place by head office. That has changed now with both going ahead again. I should imagine that the powers that be have obviously known about this merger for sometime now, unlike us normal bods. Therefore I don't see how pilot redundancies can be something to expect, especially with the fleet changes and aircraft acquisitions.
LIFO does not necessarily prevail, as was shown I believe by BA towards the Dan Air crews, in that case I believe redundancy depended on fleet type. Ability in the simulator defining job securitry, well that's always been with us, and I know in other airlines it plays a big part in 'your face fitting' so to speak.
LIFO seems to be the fairest to the pilots, but not always practical/economical for the company; and I should imagine the DEC recently employed will be looking very nervously over their shoulder, they don't seem to be a happy bunch at the moment!
Why not operate two fleets airbus/Boeing, for the very obvious reasons that other operators do. Eggs and basket come to mind.
Just my opinion from my experience in this business.
(Apologies in the past for stirring, I was, but it was the only way to extract information, nuff said)
LIFO does not necessarily prevail, as was shown I believe by BA towards the Dan Air crews, in that case I believe redundancy depended on fleet type. Ability in the simulator defining job securitry, well that's always been with us, and I know in other airlines it plays a big part in 'your face fitting' so to speak.
LIFO seems to be the fairest to the pilots, but not always practical/economical for the company; and I should imagine the DEC recently employed will be looking very nervously over their shoulder, they don't seem to be a happy bunch at the moment!
Why not operate two fleets airbus/Boeing, for the very obvious reasons that other operators do. Eggs and basket come to mind.
Just my opinion from my experience in this business.
(Apologies in the past for stirring, I was, but it was the only way to extract information, nuff said)
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I don't believe there'll be any redundancies amongst the pilots. There's such a shortage at the moment. It may be that recruitment plans are reduced but I believe that'll be it.
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It is just a pure shame for the staff of First Choice and Thomson who will be the big losers in all this when their made redundant. But what does Mr Long care? He's got his pay rise!
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And even if there were a reduction in pilot numbers, the company would offer early retirement and voluntary redundancy packages before any compulsory redundancies. With the age demograph in both companies and the chance to perhaps 'cash in the pension chips' with it fully paid up, I reckon those at the bottom of either seniority list would be crushed in the rush by the senior pilots trying to get to the front of the queue!!!
Remember, those at the top of seniority lists in both airlines are the most expensive to the respective operators and it is best to 'entice' them to leave if you can to save most cost.
PP
Remember, those at the top of seniority lists in both airlines are the most expensive to the respective operators and it is best to 'entice' them to leave if you can to save most cost.
PP