BELFAST - 2
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if EI did return to Belfast, it would probably be from Belfast City (where they operated previously),
I have worked in ATC since 1978 and for a local Belfast travel agency before that and I have NEVER heard of Shamrock operating out of anywhere other than BFS.
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If there is continuing evidence to show that bmi loose yet more money on the BHD-LHR then I think EI should give the flights a go. If bmi do give up, and BA won't come back, then there isn't really anyone else who would operate it apart from EI. However if the caa stats show decreasing pax numbers before bmi ditched the A321s then that could be another reason why the route lost out, as the route (only up until recently) was entirely A321 operated. bmi may be secretely binning the 321s because the aircraft weren't being filled, and they saw the sense that an A320/319 would better suit the flights. So say if only about 120 of the 195 seats on an A321 were being filled all the time, then a slightly smaller aircraft is the answer. But then again maybe I'm wrong and the stats were produced after bmi got rid of most of the 321s but who's to say really
BFS - LHR used to work. These days though EZY offer daily 4 rtn flights to Gatwick, 5 to Luton and 5 to Stansted.
That is 28 sectors a day between BFS and London. About 4250 seats every day. Including a wet Wednesday in February. Morning, mid day, afternoon and evening. With the ability to slip onto the earlier or later flight for £25 if you want. Sitting on either a 5yr old 737-700 or a 2yr old A319 which will have got you in yesterday in the fog with its Cat3 capability at both ends of the route.
I wouldn't waste a pair of valuable LHR slots against that.
Not to mention all the other companies offering connections between N Ireland and the London area.
Sorry,
WWW
That is 28 sectors a day between BFS and London. About 4250 seats every day. Including a wet Wednesday in February. Morning, mid day, afternoon and evening. With the ability to slip onto the earlier or later flight for £25 if you want. Sitting on either a 5yr old 737-700 or a 2yr old A319 which will have got you in yesterday in the fog with its Cat3 capability at both ends of the route.
I wouldn't waste a pair of valuable LHR slots against that.
Not to mention all the other companies offering connections between N Ireland and the London area.
Sorry,
WWW
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Aer Lingus To Bhd?
I have to agree with Eastern Wiseguy on this one. Aer Lingus highly unlikely to fly to BHD. If they did go to Belfast they would be most likely to prefer BFS. For many reasons. One being they could if they wished land an A330 if they needed to add capacity ? I dont think the BHD facility could handle this aircraft or am I mistaken??
Aer Lingus have many aces to play with a service from Belfast. The possibility of interlining at other airports gives passengers a choice of destination all on one ticket via interline arrangement that EI have drawn up with many big airlines.
In addition Aer Lingus while appearing cheap than the competition, often charge more than some competitors. Eg I fly bmi LHR DUB advertised fare of EUR5 v EUR1 for EI , bmi ticket net price usually ends up few quid cheaper! So Aer Lingus can certainly give out the notion of low prices which gets people moving!!!!
Maybe the disappearance of BA brand from NI will mean that EI will see the need for a network carrier at BFS. bmi are supposed to be making arrangements with BA for interline on BHD LHR. Surely BA would prefer EI ???
What does anyone think ??? Maybe SUmmer 2007 ?
Aer Lingus have many aces to play with a service from Belfast. The possibility of interlining at other airports gives passengers a choice of destination all on one ticket via interline arrangement that EI have drawn up with many big airlines.
In addition Aer Lingus while appearing cheap than the competition, often charge more than some competitors. Eg I fly bmi LHR DUB advertised fare of EUR5 v EUR1 for EI , bmi ticket net price usually ends up few quid cheaper! So Aer Lingus can certainly give out the notion of low prices which gets people moving!!!!
Maybe the disappearance of BA brand from NI will mean that EI will see the need for a network carrier at BFS. bmi are supposed to be making arrangements with BA for interline on BHD LHR. Surely BA would prefer EI ???
What does anyone think ??? Maybe SUmmer 2007 ?
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EI operating BFS to LHR would be ideal for both EI and BA!!!! BA to doesnt have to operate the route, but gets all the connecting PAX. At the same time, hopefully it will make EI money and build EI's brand awareness (particullarly in the business market). Then, EI can go ahead and build its presence at BFS!
Lingus pulled out of the One World alliance I thought.
The fact is there are already nearly 5000 scheduled seats everyday from BFS to LON. Yes some might prefer LHR but most would not. I think they would be far far better off deciding if they want to be a low cost, long haul, full service or no frills airline, rationalise their fleet accordingly and then equip themselves with a more suitable structure for the next 20 years.
Flying scheduled services to the London area is a battle long ago lost to EZY and Ryan.
They are effectively a niche operator that survives by virtue of LHR slots and North Atlantic restrictive practices.
Cheers
WWW
The fact is there are already nearly 5000 scheduled seats everyday from BFS to LON. Yes some might prefer LHR but most would not. I think they would be far far better off deciding if they want to be a low cost, long haul, full service or no frills airline, rationalise their fleet accordingly and then equip themselves with a more suitable structure for the next 20 years.
Flying scheduled services to the London area is a battle long ago lost to EZY and Ryan.
They are effectively a niche operator that survives by virtue of LHR slots and North Atlantic restrictive practices.
Cheers
WWW
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AerLingus & one World alliance
[quote=Wee Weasley Welshman;3031955]Lingus pulled out of the One World alliance I thought.
Wee Weasley Welshman, Aer Lingus are coming out of the OneWorld Alliance early next year, But they have agreed to a series of Interline agreements with its choice airlines, ones that suit its network. This arrangement will include more airlines than they had through the OneWorld Alliance.
I believe a route to Heathrow from Belfast BFS would provide a good connection point throught these interline facilities. The Catchment area around Heathrow is incredible when compared to the other London airports.I dont believe that most WOULD NOT prefer HEATHROW. Take Dublin London Market in 2005 as an example,
Total Passenger : 4,364,284
Heathrow total : 2,089,220
48% of passenger choose Heathrow and many more I believe would have except the low fares and widespread availablitity of same on Ryanair persuaded many to use STN, LGW & LTN. I know quite a few who would prefer LHR but find it hard to shy away from the FR prices. and I know EI & BD have low prices but not nearly as widespread as FR.
So to respond to your comment that most would not choose LHR , I disagree, given a choice I would see very little difference DUB & Belfast in terms of which London airport is served.
I do agree with you strongly, that Belfast is very well served from London particularly by Easyjet. Curiousity got me there and I check CAA to see how AirBerlin is doing on BHDSTN . They carried a total of 8462 passengers on the route in October 2006, And the Easyjet BFSSTN route is nearly the same as same period last year so they havent adversely affected Easyjet in the Stansted to Belfast Market. I would love to know what % of Air Berlins passengers are travelling on to Germany ???? Do you know anything about this ??? Unless AB are using a F100 on all flights, I would say that 8462 (daily avg each way 136) is not too hot ??? Do you know if the Airbus or the Fokker is doing most of the flights I know it has been both ?
I would also like to say that I am not fully in agreement with your comment that AerLingus is simply a niche operator. They have a fairly good Euro network , they have some work to do on the medium to Long haul offering but otherwise they are still the Irish national airline (eventhough FR carrying more Pax from DUB!!!). If Aer Lingus is a niche carrier as you put it well most airlines could be called the same thing....what do you think ??
Wee Weasley Welshman, Aer Lingus are coming out of the OneWorld Alliance early next year, But they have agreed to a series of Interline agreements with its choice airlines, ones that suit its network. This arrangement will include more airlines than they had through the OneWorld Alliance.
I believe a route to Heathrow from Belfast BFS would provide a good connection point throught these interline facilities. The Catchment area around Heathrow is incredible when compared to the other London airports.I dont believe that most WOULD NOT prefer HEATHROW. Take Dublin London Market in 2005 as an example,
Total Passenger : 4,364,284
Heathrow total : 2,089,220
48% of passenger choose Heathrow and many more I believe would have except the low fares and widespread availablitity of same on Ryanair persuaded many to use STN, LGW & LTN. I know quite a few who would prefer LHR but find it hard to shy away from the FR prices. and I know EI & BD have low prices but not nearly as widespread as FR.
So to respond to your comment that most would not choose LHR , I disagree, given a choice I would see very little difference DUB & Belfast in terms of which London airport is served.
I do agree with you strongly, that Belfast is very well served from London particularly by Easyjet. Curiousity got me there and I check CAA to see how AirBerlin is doing on BHDSTN . They carried a total of 8462 passengers on the route in October 2006, And the Easyjet BFSSTN route is nearly the same as same period last year so they havent adversely affected Easyjet in the Stansted to Belfast Market. I would love to know what % of Air Berlins passengers are travelling on to Germany ???? Do you know anything about this ??? Unless AB are using a F100 on all flights, I would say that 8462 (daily avg each way 136) is not too hot ??? Do you know if the Airbus or the Fokker is doing most of the flights I know it has been both ?
I would also like to say that I am not fully in agreement with your comment that AerLingus is simply a niche operator. They have a fairly good Euro network , they have some work to do on the medium to Long haul offering but otherwise they are still the Irish national airline (eventhough FR carrying more Pax from DUB!!!). If Aer Lingus is a niche carrier as you put it well most airlines could be called the same thing....what do you think ??
Lingus is no longer the State National airline - its a business listed on the stock exchange like any other. Take away the LHR slots and the N American special arrangements and you'd destroy most of the value of the airline thus you could describe their business as niche.
I define niche as Within a habitat, a special area with special conditions that supplies a species with factors necessary for its survival. There is nothing at all wrong with that, it can be a stable and profitable thing to be.
You think that a direct connection between BFS and LHR operating twice daily would be a better proposition than a BFS to STN LTN or GWK spread five times daily. Sure for some it would be, particularly leisure travel headed to the West End and Central London. For a lot of people though getting to and from LHR is an expensive nightmare and any time saving is used up in the hold at Bovingdon or by being number 16 for take off.
I'm no analyst but I see Lingus having far more opportunities developing the premium leisure market (everyone has an eleventy million euro house these days) and expending some more money and thinking on the North Atlantic product - those A330's are getting pretty tired these days, for reference go see what product Emirates or Gulf or Virgin are offering on pond hoping; its impressive.
Cheers
WWW
I define niche as Within a habitat, a special area with special conditions that supplies a species with factors necessary for its survival. There is nothing at all wrong with that, it can be a stable and profitable thing to be.
You think that a direct connection between BFS and LHR operating twice daily would be a better proposition than a BFS to STN LTN or GWK spread five times daily. Sure for some it would be, particularly leisure travel headed to the West End and Central London. For a lot of people though getting to and from LHR is an expensive nightmare and any time saving is used up in the hold at Bovingdon or by being number 16 for take off.
I'm no analyst but I see Lingus having far more opportunities developing the premium leisure market (everyone has an eleventy million euro house these days) and expending some more money and thinking on the North Atlantic product - those A330's are getting pretty tired these days, for reference go see what product Emirates or Gulf or Virgin are offering on pond hoping; its impressive.
Cheers
WWW
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I have never understood the fuss about LHR. Its an old, dated overcrowded mess and a mare to get to in a car. The LHR express has improved the tedium of getting to central london but given the choice I'd take LGW any day. As for EI doing it, well if BMI pulled off the route then fair enough as they'd inherit a proven market which they could possibly develop.
Last time i flew with airberlin BHD-STN it was only half full (B737-700). Their service is vastly superior to that of Easy and Ryan but they havn't exploited it. Despite using the same equipment as Easy, their aircraft have a more spacious, pleasant feel to them. Easy's 73's may be only a few years old but they appear wrecked on the inside and out.
I think the coming year will have some problems for Easy's BFS base as they have so far failed to respond to direct competetion launched at them by Jet2. They could do with a revamp in NI in the form of an Airbus makover and actually launching some new routes instead of just talking about them. With other low cost operators joining the fray in BFS in 2007 the heat will intensify.
Last time i flew with airberlin BHD-STN it was only half full (B737-700). Their service is vastly superior to that of Easy and Ryan but they havn't exploited it. Despite using the same equipment as Easy, their aircraft have a more spacious, pleasant feel to them. Easy's 73's may be only a few years old but they appear wrecked on the inside and out.
I think the coming year will have some problems for Easy's BFS base as they have so far failed to respond to direct competetion launched at them by Jet2. They could do with a revamp in NI in the form of an Airbus makover and actually launching some new routes instead of just talking about them. With other low cost operators joining the fray in BFS in 2007 the heat will intensify.
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In Easy's last press statement, they referred to new routes and increased flights on existing routes. Well the new routes seems to have gone nowhere, what existing routes have had increased frequencies? Has all the flights to Lgw and Stn gone on sale yet for the summer?
True Blue
True Blue
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bmi
See that the ten past nine night time arrival from Heathrow tonight will now land at half eleven. What a joke! When does the city airport close? Will someone remind me?
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That's not fair. These are the very prescriptive rules that are causing bhd to see a decline in pax numbers this year. You know, 9.30pm becomes any time!
Heard an interview on Radio Ulster yesterday morning, gent from Bhd, talking about the annual increase in pax nos at Bhd, around 5%pa. They must have different figures to those published on the Caa web site.
true blue
Heard an interview on Radio Ulster yesterday morning, gent from Bhd, talking about the annual increase in pax nos at Bhd, around 5%pa. They must have different figures to those published on the Caa web site.
true blue
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Aer Lingus & Bfs
Dear WWW,
I didnt say that Aer Lingus was the State National Airline. I said it was the National Airline. What I mean by this is that Aer Lingus is the Flag Carrier for Ireland, just as BA is for Britain. I am aware that EI is listed on the SE , but this has nothing to do with its status as the National Airline.
You are probably aware from my last response to you that I was mainly replying to your comment that Most Would NOT prefer LHR over the Other. On that note you may also note that I gave DUB as an example as to the preferrd choice of London Airport. I pointed out that if all things being equal (ie frequency and Price) Passenger would choose LHR.
I also didnt imply that a twice daily link between BFS and LHR would be better than the current choice and freq to STN LGW & LTN.
Have a nice Christmas WWW, i wasnt having a go at you.
I read in further threads someone said what is all the fuss about a LHR BFS link.Its probably a fair comment . Something tells me this time next year we will still not see it happen .
I mentioned Air Berlin in my last thread. I said that there passenger carrying on STNBHD has not effected Easyets BFSSTN route at all. But I have studied the stats for the last 2 years on London Belfast and its seems that BMI have taken the worst hit since the arrival of AB. Although they were in decline the rate of decline is far greater since last May. In addition, all of Easyjets new routes from BFS have been growing but Berlin route is few hundred passengers behind of last year per month since AB arrived. I find this amazing as it seems that AB is almost immune to competitiors on STN routes inside Britain & NI ? what does anyone think. Is it that passengers are choosing AB over BMI for such good service or are they mostly connecting to Germany via STN ?? Anyone have details ??
I didnt say that Aer Lingus was the State National Airline. I said it was the National Airline. What I mean by this is that Aer Lingus is the Flag Carrier for Ireland, just as BA is for Britain. I am aware that EI is listed on the SE , but this has nothing to do with its status as the National Airline.
You are probably aware from my last response to you that I was mainly replying to your comment that Most Would NOT prefer LHR over the Other. On that note you may also note that I gave DUB as an example as to the preferrd choice of London Airport. I pointed out that if all things being equal (ie frequency and Price) Passenger would choose LHR.
I also didnt imply that a twice daily link between BFS and LHR would be better than the current choice and freq to STN LGW & LTN.
Have a nice Christmas WWW, i wasnt having a go at you.
I read in further threads someone said what is all the fuss about a LHR BFS link.Its probably a fair comment . Something tells me this time next year we will still not see it happen .
I mentioned Air Berlin in my last thread. I said that there passenger carrying on STNBHD has not effected Easyets BFSSTN route at all. But I have studied the stats for the last 2 years on London Belfast and its seems that BMI have taken the worst hit since the arrival of AB. Although they were in decline the rate of decline is far greater since last May. In addition, all of Easyjets new routes from BFS have been growing but Berlin route is few hundred passengers behind of last year per month since AB arrived. I find this amazing as it seems that AB is almost immune to competitiors on STN routes inside Britain & NI ? what does anyone think. Is it that passengers are choosing AB over BMI for such good service or are they mostly connecting to Germany via STN ?? Anyone have details ??
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If bmi pulls out of the BHD-LHR market, it is highly unlikely that anybody would be able to take over the route. Even if Aer Lingus wanted to, there is literally zero chance that they would be able to. How is Aer Lingus supposed to get the slots at LHR needed to operate a high-frequency service out of LHR? There are non available and bmi does not need to surrender them if they simply use them for other services. The potential cost of buying the slots on the grey market the only option - is certainly prohibitive for Aer Lingus.
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Ridiculous curfew
And will East Belfast turn to dust? Will houses along the North Down foreshore fall into Belfast Lough? Isn't it about time this ridiculous curfew was relaxed to allow a late return flight from Heathrow and perhaps another couple of arrivals as well. I live in Ballyhackamore - part of East Belfast for anyone who doesn't know the city - and delayed planes do land and take off after 9.30pm. An A320 and a few more Dash 8 400's will not turn the Lower Newtownards and Albertbridge Roads or Holywood (depending which approach is used) into the Hounslow of Northern Ireland. The capacity of BHD would tend to suggest any extension of the deadline will not lead to 777's thundering over every two minutes. Personally, I think the howls of protest which follow any suggestion a few planes should officially be allowed to use the airport after 9.30pm are ridiculous and short sighted in the extreme.
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IOM battle looming
This will stuff up seat capacity into Belfast but maybe it tyes in with a deal with EuroManx for them to consentrate on MAN
EuroManx seem to like these sort of deals, having come to sum arangement with AerArran when they pulled of IOM-LPL
EI BUD - Merry Christmas to you. I'm not sure a what a National Airline is or whether it exists in either the UK or Ireland any more. Air France would be one as would Alitalia. But BA stopped being one decades ago and I think the same happened to Lingus a few months back. If you are not owned by the State and are not even the biggest airline in the country then you are just another airline. Flag carrier is a phrase that hasn't really meant anything since the 1960's.
I think the current chaos and misery at LHR neatly illustrates why many passengers would prefer to avoid the place. LTN and STN have marched on pretty much regardless of the fog as they are not so capacity restricted. EZY ran a 96% programme yesterday not because their pilots eat more carrots or their aircraft are more advanced.
Lingus entering the BFS to LON market is a singularly difficult thing to do. Their product and branding and history and everything else screams DON'T compete with EZY&Ryan on similar routes. More profit and less heartache elsewhere I suggest. See First Choice airlines for an example on the holiday side of the business.
Cheers
WWW
I think the current chaos and misery at LHR neatly illustrates why many passengers would prefer to avoid the place. LTN and STN have marched on pretty much regardless of the fog as they are not so capacity restricted. EZY ran a 96% programme yesterday not because their pilots eat more carrots or their aircraft are more advanced.
Lingus entering the BFS to LON market is a singularly difficult thing to do. Their product and branding and history and everything else screams DON'T compete with EZY&Ryan on similar routes. More profit and less heartache elsewhere I suggest. See First Choice airlines for an example on the holiday side of the business.
Cheers
WWW
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WWW.. just a thought but will ezy ever start to consider adding some value to their product? I mean that Air Berlin seem to be able to move bags between their services at STN why can't EZY. It would seem to me to make sense(even at a premium)for business travellers and would have the added effect of further cutting the legs out from under the LHR mob
Last edited by eastern wiseguy; 23rd Dec 2006 at 17:03. Reason: Merry xmas Allmcc