Delta Air Lines
Join Date: Mar 2001
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eggc - get rid of that chip, you are totally missing the point
WHBM makes an excellent point though you are getting defensive and taking it as an anti-Manchester comment.
It is a scandal and so ironic that a country such as the USA, that puts so much emphasis on anti trust matters allows its airlines to carry on competing under bankruptcy protection. It is not a level playing field and affects our aviation job prospects in this country.
WHBM makes an excellent point though you are getting defensive and taking it as an anti-Manchester comment.
It is a scandal and so ironic that a country such as the USA, that puts so much emphasis on anti trust matters allows its airlines to carry on competing under bankruptcy protection. It is not a level playing field and affects our aviation job prospects in this country.
Buttonpusher
Continental has been running a 767-200 and a 757 daily to MAN, usually in the winter a single 767-400 (or 777) makes the run, most of the time they seem to be full, well at least when I have to fly them..just my 2 cents worth.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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The most up to date data I have from the CAA says that on BA's MAN-JFK route, 86% of the passengers originate in the UK and 90% of the passengers are travelling for 'leisure' and 10% for 'business'. Relatively few leisure travellers will upgrade themselves to business and not all passengers travelling on business will be on a business class ticket so yields on this must be low. BA probably are making some money out of it but if a 86% UK based and 90% leisure orientated route was "highly profitable" then BA would be running flights to here there and everywhere from across the UK. Generally only very dense lesiure orientated routes such as MCO succeed with low yields on long stage lengths.
loco
loco
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Can anyone advise if the reinstated DL DUB-JFK is being complemented by a new DL SNN-ATL to get around the nasty snn stopover in the same way as AA now fly SNN-DUB so that a DUB-ORD can be flown directly from Dublin?
Thanks, TtT.
Thanks, TtT.
Join Date: Aug 1999
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I was actually trying to work out how they're doing this, because the SNN-ATL service will become Summer only, so at the end of Summer 06, DL will have the triangular JFK-DUB-SNN-JFK service, plus nonstop DUB-ATL. Since they fly JFK-DUB nonstop, isn't that effectively two for one, or do they count the flights based on outbound from Ireland?
I wonder if things will change once the new Open Skies arrangement comes into being?
I wonder if things will change once the new Open Skies arrangement comes into being?
Don't forget the Delta MAN-JFK is a re-instatement of a route suspended about 4 years ago.
I flew the route in August 2000, B763 almost half the aircraft was C class seating, which was 100% full.
Now, if only we could get someone to do a west coast non-stop....
I flew the route in August 2000, B763 almost half the aircraft was C class seating, which was 100% full.
Now, if only we could get someone to do a west coast non-stop....
Join Date: Aug 1999
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DL - MAN/JFK
Interesting to note - from early loadings in the GDS - that the re-introduced Manchester service appears to be offering a one-class service only.
Can one assume that they will be doing an 'American Airlines' and will be using a domestic aircraft and offering the First Class cabin to full Y class fare paying passengers?
Scottie Dog
Can one assume that they will be doing an 'American Airlines' and will be using a domestic aircraft and offering the First Class cabin to full Y class fare paying passengers?
Scottie Dog
Well I must apologise to those who came here to read a discussion about Delta Airlines and their proposed UK and other European routes, only to have to wade through a string of personal attacks on me from the Manchester set for having dared to write the truth about yields at their local airport ...... !
And yield is indeed, ladies and gentlemen, what it is all about. Not bums on seats or load factors, but money in the till. I remember covering the same ground long ago reviewing the UK rail industry and the absence of revenue on one particular route. One opinion returned was that if only "the fares were halved the trains would be full". When I asked what purpose that would serve for the finances there was the same belief as seen here, that if it was full it must be profitable.
And this is exactly the problem that the mainstream US carriers have got into. I believe load factors within the US are pretty much at an all-time high, and yet they are all steadily one-by-one going bankrupt. It's because they have their yields wrong, and their costs too high, and quite why they cannot see it I do not understand.
Many UK IT operators tend to run pretty close to 100% loads. And look how many of those have come and gone over the years. There's more to it than that.
And yield is indeed, ladies and gentlemen, what it is all about. Not bums on seats or load factors, but money in the till. I remember covering the same ground long ago reviewing the UK rail industry and the absence of revenue on one particular route. One opinion returned was that if only "the fares were halved the trains would be full". When I asked what purpose that would serve for the finances there was the same belief as seen here, that if it was full it must be profitable.
And this is exactly the problem that the mainstream US carriers have got into. I believe load factors within the US are pretty much at an all-time high, and yet they are all steadily one-by-one going bankrupt. It's because they have their yields wrong, and their costs too high, and quite why they cannot see it I do not understand.
Many UK IT operators tend to run pretty close to 100% loads. And look how many of those have come and gone over the years. There's more to it than that.
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"New York to Manchester. Head-on to BA who have been having difficulty for years in making the daily 767 pay. Now someone with no money is going to try and share the route."
Firstly, I do not live in Manchester, or in the 'north', my comments are not biased.
Regarding the MAN-JFK route....from what I have been told, and when I have monitored the loads for about 6-8 weeks, here is my conclusion!
BA's MAN-JFK route is quite profitable. About four years ago I think, the Manchester Evening News newspaper (I think) had a special article on Manchester. BA reported then that MAN-JFK made them about 1.5 - 2 million pounds a year in proft. Now, even I thought it was strange for an airline to disclose this type of information to the press - but there you go! This was before 9/11 and they also stated that they wanted to expand at MAN - (obviously not)! So you can make of this information what you will!
However, when I monitored the loads on BA1502/1503 the whole of June, C regularly showed 0 in Amadeus not to mention Economy! On the whole, most longhaul out of MAN does quite well - SQ's 5 direct MAN-SIN and 2 one-stop MAN-ZRH-SIN are regularly full - If anyone of you try to book MAN-SIN in Nov/Dec, Business and Economy are all full!
I know it all depends on how much an airline charges for each fare, so I could monitor loads all I want, and it still wouldn't know if a flight was profitable! However, if BA's MAN-JFK was not profitable, why would BA continue with the flight since 9/11 when they have made cuts galore? BA is no longer the airline that operates LONGHAUL routes at a loss, so I think that tells us something at least about the profitability of MAN-JFK!
Firstly, I do not live in Manchester, or in the 'north', my comments are not biased.
Regarding the MAN-JFK route....from what I have been told, and when I have monitored the loads for about 6-8 weeks, here is my conclusion!
BA's MAN-JFK route is quite profitable. About four years ago I think, the Manchester Evening News newspaper (I think) had a special article on Manchester. BA reported then that MAN-JFK made them about 1.5 - 2 million pounds a year in proft. Now, even I thought it was strange for an airline to disclose this type of information to the press - but there you go! This was before 9/11 and they also stated that they wanted to expand at MAN - (obviously not)! So you can make of this information what you will!
However, when I monitored the loads on BA1502/1503 the whole of June, C regularly showed 0 in Amadeus not to mention Economy! On the whole, most longhaul out of MAN does quite well - SQ's 5 direct MAN-SIN and 2 one-stop MAN-ZRH-SIN are regularly full - If anyone of you try to book MAN-SIN in Nov/Dec, Business and Economy are all full!
I know it all depends on how much an airline charges for each fare, so I could monitor loads all I want, and it still wouldn't know if a flight was profitable! However, if BA's MAN-JFK was not profitable, why would BA continue with the flight since 9/11 when they have made cuts galore? BA is no longer the airline that operates LONGHAUL routes at a loss, so I think that tells us something at least about the profitability of MAN-JFK!
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BA's MAN-JFK could make better profits with a aircraft that is not like stepping back in time when you get on board. A refit is in the pipeline but the 767 duskings seem to be taking forever......
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Interesting to note - from early loadings in the GDS - that the re-introduced Manchester service appears to be offering a one-class service only.
Can one assume that they will be doing an 'American Airlines' and will be using a domestic aircraft and offering the First Class cabin to full Y class fare paying passengers?
Can one assume that they will be doing an 'American Airlines' and will be using a domestic aircraft and offering the First Class cabin to full Y class fare paying passengers?
It's just until the 764s are reconfigured to International Biz Elite standard, as they currently carry domestic F seats.
Makes you wonder how much of a shot gun decision it was to send them transatlantic if the product won't be ready in time.
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Delta posts $1.14 billion loss for 6 week period!
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Delta Man - JFK. Any good ?
Anyone used Delta Manchester to New York JFK ?
Just booked, seemed best deal available.
Only really used BA or VS on transatlantic before.
Just booked, seemed best deal available.
Only really used BA or VS on transatlantic before.
