BAE Systems sells stake in Airbus
Bringer of Wx
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by wombat13
Delighted
Originally Posted by heebeegb
A very disappointing move. The latest in a long history now of the UK's move away from airliner production.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What we're worried about is UK plc, not just BAE Systems or whatever they're called. Maybe there is another stunning deal waiting in the background, but whatever, BAE will be even more of a minority partner than in Airbus and could lose whatever work comes its way in a few years.
Whatever its problems, and the 747 originally went through just as bad in its early days and nearly did for Boeing, the A380 IS going to be a long term success because there is no other equipment on that scale, and the world will need a monster long range carrier. Hate to say it, but I think there is short-termism afoot here, and in the long run, BAE will lose out heavily, unless they know something we don't.......
Whatever its problems, and the 747 originally went through just as bad in its early days and nearly did for Boeing, the A380 IS going to be a long term success because there is no other equipment on that scale, and the world will need a monster long range carrier. Hate to say it, but I think there is short-termism afoot here, and in the long run, BAE will lose out heavily, unless they know something we don't.......
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Core?
Airbus is a well known and successful brand for many in the world;
Owning it should be important for companies who value europe aerospace engineering...
Shame that they no longer regard this as 'core' to their operation....
Short sighted..
Owning it should be important for companies who value europe aerospace engineering...
Shame that they no longer regard this as 'core' to their operation....
Short sighted..
Originally Posted by Rainboe
the A380 IS going to be a long term success because there is no other equipment on that scale
I'm sorry, but nothing is guaranteed. There is certainly a market for a "monster long range carrier", but whether that market is really big enough for Airbus to recover the development costs is very much open to debate.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: guernsey
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the Boot was on the other foot......
.....imagine for a moment that the FRENCH were selling their stake in EADS to BAE Systems.....and the foaming at the mouth that would be happening across the board from Politicians to Press across the Channel.......so I guess if the French think its a bad idea.....we may think its not?
In the short term this will likely have no impact on UK jobs or skills. Sadly in the long term because of the way EADS is beholden to French or German politicians, when the time comes to trim or cut.....it will happen in the UK, not in France or Germany. I liked the earlier theory that BAe has seen some of the 380 numbers and reckons now is the time to get out while on a high.....feels kinda plausible......
We either believe in free markets, or we don't, and if the other guy doesn't believe in them, in the short term, while thats partly our problem too....in the long term its a bigger problem for him.......
In the short term this will likely have no impact on UK jobs or skills. Sadly in the long term because of the way EADS is beholden to French or German politicians, when the time comes to trim or cut.....it will happen in the UK, not in France or Germany. I liked the earlier theory that BAe has seen some of the 380 numbers and reckons now is the time to get out while on a high.....feels kinda plausible......
We either believe in free markets, or we don't, and if the other guy doesn't believe in them, in the short term, while thats partly our problem too....in the long term its a bigger problem for him.......
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Crew Room
Age: 41
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if airbus would be so financially up the creek if the a380 rollout when tits up, surely they aren't goin to add to it's costs by shifting the satelite facilitys closer to the final assembly line just so they are in a certain country?
surely bae have sold it's stake for their business future direction (which may not be in actual hairy planes) rather than to throw a spanner in the old international cooperation machine,
i think everyone should just step back and stop bein so motivated by conspiracy theories and look for a common sense answer, bae systems is a systems designer right? so after getting airbus off the ground so to speak surely they just want to go back to systems and leave airbus to making planes?
surely bae have sold it's stake for their business future direction (which may not be in actual hairy planes) rather than to throw a spanner in the old international cooperation machine,
i think everyone should just step back and stop bein so motivated by conspiracy theories and look for a common sense answer, bae systems is a systems designer right? so after getting airbus off the ground so to speak surely they just want to go back to systems and leave airbus to making planes?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,097
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rainboe said: " the A380 IS going to be a long term success because there is no other equipment on that scale, and the world will need a monster long range carrier."
Errr.. maybe, but not in numbers that will make it commercial for Airbus. The major carriers, (excluding Emirates), are ordering them in the penny packets they need to fill a niche market, everything else can be catered for by aircraft already on the market or, like the B787 and B747-800, about to arrive.
That takes care of the American market and those that follow it, (Japan etc. etc).
I think Airbus thought they were producing a B747 replacement but scaled up to cater for increased loads, well those loads are on fairly thin routes and only require a small number of mega type airframes, everything else will go on the real B747 replacement, the B777-200 & -300 +ER etc. and the A330/340-500 & -600 that can offer greater flexibility to the travelling public. I suspect that Airbus are heading for some really serious trouble with the A380 and BAE Systems will be well shot of them.
Errr.. maybe, but not in numbers that will make it commercial for Airbus. The major carriers, (excluding Emirates), are ordering them in the penny packets they need to fill a niche market, everything else can be catered for by aircraft already on the market or, like the B787 and B747-800, about to arrive.
That takes care of the American market and those that follow it, (Japan etc. etc).
I think Airbus thought they were producing a B747 replacement but scaled up to cater for increased loads, well those loads are on fairly thin routes and only require a small number of mega type airframes, everything else will go on the real B747 replacement, the B777-200 & -300 +ER etc. and the A330/340-500 & -600 that can offer greater flexibility to the travelling public. I suspect that Airbus are heading for some really serious trouble with the A380 and BAE Systems will be well shot of them.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by WHBM
You just have to look at the history of comparable UK industrial organisations sold to French multi-nationals. GEC who built railway locomotives and carriages in the UK at various large plants were merged with Alsthom in France. This lasted just a few years before all the work in UK plants had finally been moved to France. Other examples too. None the other way.
Bringer of Wx
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All the A380 doomsayers (listening to whom makes it appear that they already have the inside track on the project's inevitable failure) might like to be reminded that the 747 itself was a huge gamble at the time - the development costs greatly exceeding the then net worth of Boeing.
Good businesses necessarily take long-range investment risks sometimes (as opposed to cashing in their chips for short-term gains). This isn't some reducto ad absurdum argument about whether we're free marketeers or not - this is about one of the greatest aviation nations on the planet losing pretty much all its influence in what should be an area of national excellence. There are some things that shouldn't be left to free markets alone.
Good businesses necessarily take long-range investment risks sometimes (as opposed to cashing in their chips for short-term gains). This isn't some reducto ad absurdum argument about whether we're free marketeers or not - this is about one of the greatest aviation nations on the planet losing pretty much all its influence in what should be an area of national excellence. There are some things that shouldn't be left to free markets alone.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: guernsey
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by WeatherJinx
There are some things that shouldn't be left to free markets alone.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: the gem of south devon
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The whole thing is part of a plan put together by BAe in the early 1990's to exit commercial aircraft building. The first to go was the HS 125 because it was a going concern and had a marketable value, bear in mind that the HS 125-800 is still alive and well as the Hawker 800XP.
It was more difficult for BAE SYSTEMS to extract itself from it's Regional Aircraft business as the whole thing was an albatross circling the BAE HQ. In the mid 90's the asset value of the regional aircraft parked up was more than the value of the company, it was saved by auntie Maggie allowing companies to take pension holidays and selling the head leases to an insurance company. The events of 911 gave BAE the excuse it needed to bin the 146/RJ and of course the company was awash with money. Selling the Airbus stake is the final part of the plan, which was first talked about in 2001.
Mike Turner is a hard nosed business man and has worked for HSA/BAe/BAE all his life. He will be out on the golf course in Surrey tomorrow and he won't give a toss what the workforce or sentimentalists think. There is no sentiment on the board, even when the set up the heritage unit the main purpose was to generate revenue from all the old photos etc. that where held in archives all over the UK. As agenerator of 'shareholder value' MJT has delivered and the shareholders, well the ones that matter like banks and pension funds, will be delighted because you cannot lose money on a military contract.
DC
It was more difficult for BAE SYSTEMS to extract itself from it's Regional Aircraft business as the whole thing was an albatross circling the BAE HQ. In the mid 90's the asset value of the regional aircraft parked up was more than the value of the company, it was saved by auntie Maggie allowing companies to take pension holidays and selling the head leases to an insurance company. The events of 911 gave BAE the excuse it needed to bin the 146/RJ and of course the company was awash with money. Selling the Airbus stake is the final part of the plan, which was first talked about in 2001.
Mike Turner is a hard nosed business man and has worked for HSA/BAe/BAE all his life. He will be out on the golf course in Surrey tomorrow and he won't give a toss what the workforce or sentimentalists think. There is no sentiment on the board, even when the set up the heritage unit the main purpose was to generate revenue from all the old photos etc. that where held in archives all over the UK. As agenerator of 'shareholder value' MJT has delivered and the shareholders, well the ones that matter like banks and pension funds, will be delighted because you cannot lose money on a military contract.
DC
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ashbourne Co Meath Ireland
Age: 73
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe there is a lot more in this than we realise....
BAE will lose out heavily, unless they know something we don't.......
Maybe, and this is of course a rumour network, they perhaps do know a LOT more than the rest of us, and don't want to have to deal with the financial implications of a delay or other problem with the 380 project. It's all about spin, smoke and mirrors, and many other ways to make things look as good or as bad as they can be made to, depending on which side of the equation you are standing.
Bringer of Wx
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kuningan
So you're suggesting we throw our hand in, admit that we're crap managers and continue to allow foreign capital to repatriate profits whilst we empty the cupboards of all our assets?
The (debatable) '4th largest economy' epithet is unsustainable on this 'client state' model (and in any case is largely bloated by overinflated and largely theoretical real-estate values), as you'll begin to see over the next few years.
I'm not suggesting we become protectionist and insular, just that we should nurture and sustain our 'national champions' a little better, not just whore everything out to the highest bidder all the time.
So you're suggesting we throw our hand in, admit that we're crap managers and continue to allow foreign capital to repatriate profits whilst we empty the cupboards of all our assets?
The (debatable) '4th largest economy' epithet is unsustainable on this 'client state' model (and in any case is largely bloated by overinflated and largely theoretical real-estate values), as you'll begin to see over the next few years.
I'm not suggesting we become protectionist and insular, just that we should nurture and sustain our 'national champions' a little better, not just whore everything out to the highest bidder all the time.
Bear Behind
Who used to be one of Europe's leading manufacturers of cars?
And one of the world's leading manufacturers of locomotives and rolling stock?
And textiles?
And now we see the end of commercial aviation, too?
Somebody asked if it's the end of civilisation. Well, no actually, it's not. Not in and of itself. But it may be one more brick in the wall - the U.K. is simply not able to MAKE anything any more. And that's very, very sad for a nation that brought about the Industrial Revolution.
The question is, if we can't MAKE things, what CAN we do?
And one of the world's leading manufacturers of locomotives and rolling stock?
And textiles?
And now we see the end of commercial aviation, too?
Somebody asked if it's the end of civilisation. Well, no actually, it's not. Not in and of itself. But it may be one more brick in the wall - the U.K. is simply not able to MAKE anything any more. And that's very, very sad for a nation that brought about the Industrial Revolution.
The question is, if we can't MAKE things, what CAN we do?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Meon Valley
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What can we do ?
Hand over all past generations legacy of tax payment to pure economic migrants, posing under the asylum banner.
Why the hell else do they risk life and limb to travel half way round the work to get here (passing through most of the free european world on the way.)
Hand over all past generations legacy of tax payment to pure economic migrants, posing under the asylum banner.
Why the hell else do they risk life and limb to travel half way round the work to get here (passing through most of the free european world on the way.)
Originally Posted by panda-k-bear
Somebody asked if it's the end of civilisation. Well, no actually, it's not. Not in and of itself. But it may be one more brick in the wall - the U.K. is simply not able to MAKE anything any more. And that's very, very sad for a nation that brought about the Industrial Revolution.
Does that mean we don't make anything anymore? Of course not. As someone pointed out earlier we DO still make cars (does it really matter if it's for a foreign owned company). And we still design and manufacture equipment and systems for commercial airliners. Maybe not as high profile and obvious to the untrained eye as the wings, but so what?