Stansted
Originally Posted by Epsilon minus
BAA warned a year ago the runway's earliest completion date was 2013, and that was a "challenging target". The government had previously said it expected the runway to open in 2011-2012
That is in no way a challenge for a major construction contractor in one year, it is basically a "muck out concrete in" job. The plans are drawn and the land is identified. It just needs starting. I believe in 1940 the RAF probably laid this much new runway each month, which was done mainly by hand with existing contractors and resources.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Stockport
Posts: 662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes but they were built in a rush and wouldn`t survive the hammereing that Stansted would give it
Runway 24R at Manchester was an old wartime runway and they have had to spend millions on rebuilding and strengthening
G-I-B
Runway 24R at Manchester was an old wartime runway and they have had to spend millions on rebuilding and strengthening
G-I-B
WHBM: Interesting figures to play with (might as well as I doubt whether I'll live to see it happen!)
If correct, 4bn for 2500m of runway plus bits seems toppy and taking two years more than the whole of WW2 to construct one airstrip seems downright laggardly.
That's a cool 1.6million quid per metre or 6666 per M3 of concrete laid.
BAA recently rejected a bid of 9bn for the company...now I understand, as with 15000m of runways (at LHR x 2/STN/LGW & SOU) they should be worth 24bn even without the rest of the airport land & buildings....
By the way, I see that China plans 42 new airports in the next 15 years. Now that's ambitious.
On a serious note, the dithering and no doubt related cost overruns that characterise major projects in this country (epitomised by the T5 planning inquiry, Nimrods,aircraft carriers etc) make one weep. It's just as well the French run Airbus.
If correct, 4bn for 2500m of runway plus bits seems toppy and taking two years more than the whole of WW2 to construct one airstrip seems downright laggardly.
That's a cool 1.6million quid per metre or 6666 per M3 of concrete laid.
BAA recently rejected a bid of 9bn for the company...now I understand, as with 15000m of runways (at LHR x 2/STN/LGW & SOU) they should be worth 24bn even without the rest of the airport land & buildings....
By the way, I see that China plans 42 new airports in the next 15 years. Now that's ambitious.
On a serious note, the dithering and no doubt related cost overruns that characterise major projects in this country (epitomised by the T5 planning inquiry, Nimrods,aircraft carriers etc) make one weep. It's just as well the French run Airbus.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MAN's R2 cost about £200m plus (I think) the cost of buying the land. That included demolitions of existing bldgs, rerouting a road, two tunnels (road and river), dismantling listed buildings and building a new satellite fire station.
I'm off to buy shares in concrete manufacturers right now.
Why does everything BAA do cost 10x as much as anything anyone else does?
I'm off to buy shares in concrete manufacturers right now.
Why does everything BAA do cost 10x as much as anything anyone else does?
BAA's own blurb claims 15000m3 of concrete poured per week at the peak of T5 construction so using WHBM's figure of 600,000m3 that's 40 weeks for a runway, which sounds far more reasonable than 9 years. Perhaps the time scale includes 3 years of planning enquiry,3 years of deciding what shape and colour it should be and 3 years of doing nothing at all just to be on the safe side.
Guys
You are getting well on your way to membership of the Institute of Civil Engineers
£6,666 per m3 of concrete ?
Current typical price of ready-mixed concrrete is £50 per m3, ex-works. I know there's more to it, but it gives you an idea. For a project of this size you would have a concrete production plant (known as a "batching plant") on site. Perhaps the one used on T5 could be sent over to reduce costs. Has anyone asked ?
You are getting well on your way to membership of the Institute of Civil Engineers
£6,666 per m3 of concrete ?
Current typical price of ready-mixed concrrete is £50 per m3, ex-works. I know there's more to it, but it gives you an idea. For a project of this size you would have a concrete production plant (known as a "batching plant") on site. Perhaps the one used on T5 could be sent over to reduce costs. Has anyone asked ?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The figures don't surprise me, its all just a part of the old Rip off Britain campaign. In todays world the likes of BAA won't accept a tender from some smallish outfit who could do the work much cheaper and to the required standard. Nor do they even consider getting in a contract team and managing the work in house. That is all seen as unacceptable risk. Instead they will go through a laborious process of ticking boxes against the tenders they receive. Probably get a special team of lawyers, engineers and project managers to pour over the tenders.
In reality there are only a handful of multinationals that can undertake a project of this scale given the rules that big corporates such as BAA have essentially self imposed on themselves. Even then the company that wins the tender will retender work and sub it out all the way down to the man who does the road marshalling and sprays water to keep the dust down. All aboard the gravy train with each and everyone adding on a margin in the process. Thats essentially how we get to the ridiculous figures these days for laying some concrete.
Now heres one for innovation.... Imagine hiring a couple of super tankers, fill them up with the materials and equipment brought overseas nice and cheap and throw on board a 1,000 workers at £100 a day. Get in some decent qualified people to oversee the work and throw in some hefty early completion bonuses for all concerned. Reckon it would take more than 6 months to lay some concrete? Kick up a right fuss in the process but get the job done and to the required standard.
In reality there are only a handful of multinationals that can undertake a project of this scale given the rules that big corporates such as BAA have essentially self imposed on themselves. Even then the company that wins the tender will retender work and sub it out all the way down to the man who does the road marshalling and sprays water to keep the dust down. All aboard the gravy train with each and everyone adding on a margin in the process. Thats essentially how we get to the ridiculous figures these days for laying some concrete.
Now heres one for innovation.... Imagine hiring a couple of super tankers, fill them up with the materials and equipment brought overseas nice and cheap and throw on board a 1,000 workers at £100 a day. Get in some decent qualified people to oversee the work and throw in some hefty early completion bonuses for all concerned. Reckon it would take more than 6 months to lay some concrete? Kick up a right fuss in the process but get the job done and to the required standard.
What takes time is:
Drawing up the plans, detailed enough to put into action.
Getting an environmental impact assessment done by someone in qualified green wellies.
Submitting a planning application which takes months to be passed from District Council to County Council to Prescott
who then appoints an ex-military officer as a planning inspector.
Who gives loads of notice to NIMBYs, parish councils, district councils, county councils, regional assemblies, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all.
Then the said NIMBYs, councils, etc get to state their objections. Public Inquiries work 4 or 5 day weeks, 3-4 hours a day. So they take months, if not years. Lawyers get paid ££££.
Then the ex-military officer submits his report to Government. Delay whilst Prescott is taught to read (or has it read to him).
Government waits until they can put a positive spin on the announcement, or hide it.
Approval is given.
BAA holds a party.
Tenders are put out giving companies time to respond.
Tenders are assessed. Further negotiations occur. A start date is agreed.
The start date is delayed because of unforeseen circumstances (it rains, or the skip doesn't show up).
Concrete gets poured.
Workers go on strike.
Further delays when they discover lesser-spotted Reggie Spotters are nesting on the site. Also, Swampy has set up home on the site and the stench is too awful to approach him. (And turfing him off private land is probably an infringement of his 'human' rights.)
Cracks are discovered in the concrete and it transpires that the cheapest possible concrete was ordered from a dubious cove with a Russian accent in a raincoat in a pub in Bishops Stortford. (have you heard a raincoat with a Russian accent?).
Due to previous delays the painters can't start until they've finished Mrs Entwhistle's dining room.
Handover day approaches, and it's getting on for twenty past eight (or 2020).
Drawing up the plans, detailed enough to put into action.
Getting an environmental impact assessment done by someone in qualified green wellies.
Submitting a planning application which takes months to be passed from District Council to County Council to Prescott
who then appoints an ex-military officer as a planning inspector.Who gives loads of notice to NIMBYs, parish councils, district councils, county councils, regional assemblies, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all.
Then the said NIMBYs, councils, etc get to state their objections. Public Inquiries work 4 or 5 day weeks, 3-4 hours a day. So they take months, if not years. Lawyers get paid ££££.
Then the ex-military officer submits his report to Government. Delay whilst Prescott is taught to read (or has it read to him).
Government waits until they can put a positive spin on the announcement, or hide it.
Approval is given.
BAA holds a party.
Tenders are put out giving companies time to respond.
Tenders are assessed. Further negotiations occur. A start date is agreed.
The start date is delayed because of unforeseen circumstances (it rains, or the skip doesn't show up).
Concrete gets poured.
Workers go on strike.
Further delays when they discover lesser-spotted Reggie Spotters are nesting on the site. Also, Swampy has set up home on the site and the stench is too awful to approach him. (And turfing him off private land is probably an infringement of his 'human' rights.)
Cracks are discovered in the concrete and it transpires that the cheapest possible concrete was ordered from a dubious cove with a Russian accent in a raincoat in a pub in Bishops Stortford. (have you heard a raincoat with a Russian accent?).
Due to previous delays the painters can't start until they've finished Mrs Entwhistle's dining room.
Handover day approaches, and it's getting on for twenty past eight (or 2020).
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Between the flower pots
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If correct, 4bn for 2500m of runway plus bits seems toppy and taking two years more than the whole of WW2 to construct one airstrip seems downright laggardly.
Last edited by Pain in the R's; 18th May 2006 at 05:15.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by LGS6753
What takes time is:
Submitting a planning application which takes months to be passed from District Council to County Council to Prescott
Submitting a planning application which takes months to be passed from District Council to County Council to Prescott
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North of CDG
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... Amazing planning timetable, when one considers that the latest off-shore Japanese airport at Kytakyushu was opened a mere... four years after getting the green light - and did not only involve a new runway (obviously), but creating a completely new-built airport on an artificial island, with a highway/causeway to the mainland etc.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, it was only three years between the go-ahead and the fourth runway being opened at CDG. They just bought more land for it - but then again they buy it at a 20% premium, so most land/house owners are happy to sell...
Food for thought...
Nite!
Also, if I'm not mistaken, it was only three years between the go-ahead and the fourth runway being opened at CDG. They just bought more land for it - but then again they buy it at a 20% premium, so most land/house owners are happy to sell...
Food for thought...
Nite!
unrest in the camp?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
people are not happy
rumours flying(pun)that there are TWO handling agents at stansted with unhappy employees.Seems nobody is happy with their pay negotiations.Could well be very interesting there this summer.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jes
And there I was thinking this was a thread about humanity in general. Not exactly a gripping story, and in breach of forum guidelines, I believe.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sat1
rumours flying(pun)that there are TWO handling agents at stansted with unhappy employees.Seems nobody is happy with their pay negotiations.Could well be very interesting there this summer.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ask the tower !
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's happening at EGSS right now. I'm in the Suffolk countryside and there are 2 RYR 738's and a GSS 744 chasing each other in the hold for RWY 23. The 2 738's are less than 1000ft apart that I do know. Their TCAS will be going mad.
By the way, I'm not a spotter or wannabe, I know these a/c are VERY close.
Any ideas ??
By the way, I'm not a spotter or wannabe, I know these a/c are VERY close.
Any ideas ??
Morocco
Flew out with RYR on 23rd, and I have to say its the absolute PITS compared with Gatwick; cramped checkin area; long queues; few eating places. OK I know it's 'undergoing development' but then so are all other BAA airports and they're not half as bad. Unfortunately RYR don't go to my destination from any other departure point so I've got no choice but to go here. Even the car parking is confusing; instead of just Long term and Short term, you've also got Mid term. Now what is Mid term? 2 days? 6 days?