Boeing Record attempt
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barit1 said:
That doesn't make sense. Just because they are not flying the shortest route dosen't mean they can't fly a single great circle. There is no logic behind what you are saying. Of course the east bound great circle from HGK to LHR is shorter than the westbound great circle.
generally distance courses assume a great circle distance. BUT - going the long way around must mean (at least) two great circle segments with a fixed waypoint.
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I was never great at route mods but I have to agree with barit1 on this one. If you do a direct, the FMC will take you the short way around the globe unless you anchor the route on a point on the longer great circle.
In the real world, Boeing 002 flew waypoints and some airways from what I could see while tracking the flight.
The flight progress shown on the Boeing site seemed to be a preprogrammed javascript 'simulation' of the trip and did not follow the actual route.
In the real world, Boeing 002 flew waypoints and some airways from what I could see while tracking the flight.
The flight progress shown on the Boeing site seemed to be a preprogrammed javascript 'simulation' of the trip and did not follow the actual route.
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according to Sky news, the aircraft is able to fly heathrow - sydeny non stop. Im really not sure why anyone would want to do this, id much prefer a couple of hours in singapore or hong kong.
Paxing All Over The World
according to Sky news, the aircraft is able to fly Heathrow - Sydney non stop.
Thought police antagonist
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Leaving the issue of the "record or not as the case may be" aside, just watched the BBC News report-----and have to say it was one of the least plausible reports on record-----journo on a freebie says he spent his sleeping time in cattle class ??--not in business class ??-----aw c'mon ! Did he do his training on an old "Drop the Dead Donkey" script ? 
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The point I was making is in regard to establishing a record. If you simply say you are flying HKG-LHR, the official distance will be assumed as great circle (ie most direct route), regardless of the actual route flown.
If you want the record to be something other than the beeline great circle, you need to specify at least one waypoint; then the official recorded distance will be the sum of the two (or more) segments. Each segment will be a great circle on its own, and together they add to more than the original great circle distance.
An example using PDX as a waypoint.
If you want the record to be something other than the beeline great circle, you need to specify at least one waypoint; then the official recorded distance will be the sum of the two (or more) segments. Each segment will be a great circle on its own, and together they add to more than the original great circle distance.
An example using PDX as a waypoint.
Last edited by barit1; 10th Nov 2005 at 18:09.
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How about wasting some more parafin by doing a REAL round the world, ie via the 4 corners, flight with just one stop.
Toulouse to AKL via 0N/0W and 90S then AKL back to TLS via 0N/180W and 90N for eg.
Toulouse to AKL via 0N/0W and 90S then AKL back to TLS via 0N/180W and 90N for eg.
Jo90:
You are quite right of course, that would be far more worthy of recognition but I don't think the journalists could explain the concept in one sentence of "longest/farthest in the world" type so Joe Public couldn't take it in.
Did the A340 route Paris - Auckland - Paris across Asia, and return across Pacific/Americas/Atlantic ?
You are quite right of course, that would be far more worthy of recognition but I don't think the journalists could explain the concept in one sentence of "longest/farthest in the world" type so Joe Public couldn't take it in.
Did the A340 route Paris - Auckland - Paris across Asia, and return across Pacific/Americas/Atlantic ?
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>>If you want the record to be something other than the beeline great circle, you need to specify at least one waypoint; then the official recorded distance will be the sum of the two (or more) segments. Each segment will be a great circle on its own, and together they add to more than the original great circle distance.<<
Yep, you were exactly right about the jog south approaching the Pacific coast of the U.S.:
"...The big jet's route had been mapped out three hours before take off, calculated to set a distance record but also to catch the best possible tail winds along the way.
It would pass over Taiwan, along the southern coast of Japan and across the Pacific toward Midway. Northwest of Midway would be the first of three critical "turn points" that are used to measure the distance record. The second turn point was Los Angeles and the third New York. The distance for the record was the sum of the four legs.
The plane actually flew further. That's because the distance record is measured by a straight line from the start, to each of the three turn points and finally to the end point at Heathrow. But the plane did not fly in a straight line between those points. The pilots would sometimes change course slightly to find the better winds, although each of the three turn points had to be overflown.
A flight map that is part of the jet's in-flight entertainment system showed the total miles flown just before landing at 14,042 miles..."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...gflight11.html
Yep, you were exactly right about the jog south approaching the Pacific coast of the U.S.:
"...The big jet's route had been mapped out three hours before take off, calculated to set a distance record but also to catch the best possible tail winds along the way.
It would pass over Taiwan, along the southern coast of Japan and across the Pacific toward Midway. Northwest of Midway would be the first of three critical "turn points" that are used to measure the distance record. The second turn point was Los Angeles and the third New York. The distance for the record was the sum of the four legs.
The plane actually flew further. That's because the distance record is measured by a straight line from the start, to each of the three turn points and finally to the end point at Heathrow. But the plane did not fly in a straight line between those points. The pilots would sometimes change course slightly to find the better winds, although each of the three turn points had to be overflown.
A flight map that is part of the jet's in-flight entertainment system showed the total miles flown just before landing at 14,042 miles..."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...gflight11.html
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Weeelllll, Joe Public believes the aircraft can fly 23 hours + Non stop and that's what matters. They do not know that it can only do it with No Pax, No Cargo, No Bags, probably no spares pack.
Fuel would be topped up just before T/O etc.
It's a PR coup which Boeing will milk for all it's worth.
Personally my bum wouldn't stand it.!
Fuel would be topped up just before T/O etc.
It's a PR coup which Boeing will milk for all it's worth.
Personally my bum wouldn't stand it.!
The 200LR WILL DO a 20+ hour flight WITH a payload. The Airbus CANNOT even come close.
SQ limit their SIN LAX A340-500 flights to only around 200 pax, very little freight..
CX limit their HKG NYC A340-600 flights to around 260 pax and very little freight.
The LR would do the same with 300+ Pax AND freight.
mmmmmm
SQ limit their SIN LAX A340-500 flights to only around 200 pax, very little freight..
CX limit their HKG NYC A340-600 flights to around 260 pax and very little freight.
The LR would do the same with 300+ Pax AND freight.
mmmmmm
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This was just a well timed publicity stunt, nothing more, nothing less.
Airbus have been in the news with the A-380 for a few months now (even the BBC page about the record flight had a picture of the 380) and Boeing needed something to counter that. Airbus are going to be showcasing the 380 in that part of the world over the coming days, so it's just a gentle reminder that there are alternatives.
The public isn't interested in the nose section of a 787, or the projected performance figures, they want something "real". They don't care about the details of the flight either, just that it's a new record. It will be forgotten in a week.
It was quite pointless from a practical viewpoint, but aviation is a business and keeping your name in the public eye is important, even if the airline execs might not be swayed by such antics.
Airbus have been in the news with the A-380 for a few months now (even the BBC page about the record flight had a picture of the 380) and Boeing needed something to counter that. Airbus are going to be showcasing the 380 in that part of the world over the coming days, so it's just a gentle reminder that there are alternatives.
The public isn't interested in the nose section of a 787, or the projected performance figures, they want something "real". They don't care about the details of the flight either, just that it's a new record. It will be forgotten in a week.
It was quite pointless from a practical viewpoint, but aviation is a business and keeping your name in the public eye is important, even if the airline execs might not be swayed by such antics.
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Something many people contributing to this thread seem to be missing is that this aircraft can already do LON-SYD non-stop with a good payload. The challenge is to do SYD-LON all the year round. My guess is that the next record attempt will be SYD-LON. This will be possible when the test equipment is removed and the aircraft is fitted with the new light weight interior and the full suite of 6 auxiliary tanks.
When that flight has taken place a whole new world will open up. Of course people will want to fly non-stop between Australia and Europe. The reason is that the heavy cost of stopping en-route will be removed. When UK-Australia flights became 1 stop rather than 2 the cost per R/T came down, as I recall, by about £250. If that is taken off the average fares as a result of non-stop operations then the market will grow dramatically.
It is easily possible to see that in 5 years time QF alone will have 4 non-stops per day between OZ and LON plus others to FRA, ROM and PAR, possibly even MAN. This will require them to buy 24 aircraft. European carriers very much including BA will have to match. So there's another 24 aircraft. Then look at SYD-ORD and SYD-NYC and the prospects look even better. That is why Boeing undertook this flight and that is why SYD-LON must surely follow. Because the 777 is so far ahead of Airbus on these very long sectors it will take all the market for several years to come.
When that flight has taken place a whole new world will open up. Of course people will want to fly non-stop between Australia and Europe. The reason is that the heavy cost of stopping en-route will be removed. When UK-Australia flights became 1 stop rather than 2 the cost per R/T came down, as I recall, by about £250. If that is taken off the average fares as a result of non-stop operations then the market will grow dramatically.
It is easily possible to see that in 5 years time QF alone will have 4 non-stops per day between OZ and LON plus others to FRA, ROM and PAR, possibly even MAN. This will require them to buy 24 aircraft. European carriers very much including BA will have to match. So there's another 24 aircraft. Then look at SYD-ORD and SYD-NYC and the prospects look even better. That is why Boeing undertook this flight and that is why SYD-LON must surely follow. Because the 777 is so far ahead of Airbus on these very long sectors it will take all the market for several years to come.
the cost per R/T came down, as I recall, by about £250. If that is taken off the average fares as a result of non-stop operations
When SYD-Europe nonstop comes along, those carriers will be cut out of the time-sensitive competition. So Qantas and the Europeans (and there are very few mainland European carriers going to Australia) will be the only ones doing this. On key route London to Australia the OneWorld agreement effectively gives BA and Qantas together a monopoly. And one they are likely to want to develope with higher fares for the benefit of the nonstop flight for their core business travellers.
There will also be a BA advantage for routes like Manchester - Sydney, who on BA currently have to do 2 stops MAN-LHR-SIN-SYD whereas with SQ say it is only one MAN-SIN-SYD. The nonstop from London will increase competitiveness.
What might typical timings be ? I would guess something like :
London - 1200 Monday
Sydney - 1630 Tuesday
Sydney - 1930 Tuesday
London - 0800 Wednesday
This could give an advantage as a daily Europe - Australia round trip currently takes 3 aircraft, this will only need 2.
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LONDON -- It was the mother of all red-eye
flights.
Hong Kong to London the hard way, eastbound with
the winds. Non-stop across two oceans and North America -- more than halfway around the world. By the time the wheels of the Boeing jet touched down at London's Heathrow airport at 1:18 p.m. local time Thursday, it had set a distance record of 11,664 nautical miles or, measured on the same scale as a
car's odometer, 13,422 miles (21,601 kilometers). Flight time was 22 hours, 42 minutes.
Since the dawn of the jet age more than a half-century ago, no commercial jetliner had ever flown as far non-stop without refueling.
In 1962, a Boeing B-52 bomber flew 12,532 miles from Kadena, Okinawa, to an Air Force base outside of Madrid, Spain, setting the unlimited distance record by a jet without refueling.
Boeing 002, the call sign for the plane, beat that mark handily.
In doing so, it drew the attention even of those in aviation used to dealing with long-haul jets.
After the plane made its final turn point over JFK Airport and headed toward New England, an air traffic controller in Canada asked the pilots for their point of origin. The controller already knew the plane's destination was London.
Boeing test pilot Randy Austin, who was piloting the plane at the time, told the controller it had come from Hong Kong. The controller, apparently not believing it was the Hong Kong in Asia, asked for that city's four-letter designation used by pilots.
"Is this some kind of special flight?" the controller finally asked.
The controller was told it was a world record distance flight.
It is confusing.To go to London from Hong Kong, a plane would
usually fly over Southeast Asia, then the Middle Eastand into Europe. Planes have been making that flightnon-stop since 1983. The 5,300 nautical mile flight takes about 10 hours.Other airline pilots heard the conversation between the Boeing pilots and the air traffic controller and started calling the 777 pilots to wish them well and to ask questions. How much fuel did they have left; how long had they been flying? Pilot talk.The Worldliner's flight crew poses for a group photo after landing in London.
Calls came in from pilots of American, Continental and El Al jets that were in the vicinity of the 777.
The route the jet took across the Atlantic on its final of four legs was close to that flown by Charles Lindbergh in his Spirit of St. Louis in 1927. As the jet approached Heathrow for landing, it was
placed in a holding pattern that continued for about 20 minutes.
The Heathrow controller asked the 777 pilots how long they had been flying. Told the flight time so far was more than 22 hours, the controller who had put the jet on hold replied: "My apologies."
Boeing established the distance record with its 777-200LR Worldliner, the longest-range jetliner ever built. The plane, which will be able to carry more than 300 passengers in a three-class cabin arrangement, will not enter airline passenger service
until early next year. Instead of paying passengers, the plane on its record-setting jaunt carried nine pilots, two Boeing executives, several Boeing engineers, a flight attendant, customer representatives, 11 journalists and a BBC cameraman.
The flight started from Hong Kong Wednesday, flew into Thursday over the Pacific, then back into Wednesday
when it crossed the International Dateline, and finally into Thursday again.
Arriving at Heathrow Airport under cloudy skies, two airport fire trucks welcomed the big blue Boeing jet with streams of water as it pulled up to a waiting media crowd.
"I feel great," said Lars Anderson, vice president of Boeing's 777 program, who led the Boeing group off the plane, followed by the journalists who had been invited along for the history-making flight.
The flight crew came off last, led by Captain Suzanna Darcy-Hennemann, project leader for the record-breaking flight and chief test pilot for the 777-200LR program.
The plane had 360,732 pounds of fuel before the engines were started in Hong Kong -- more than the combined weight of the plane, its passengers and their bags. When it landed in London it had 18,700 pounds of fuel remaining.
Call it a publicity stunt -- and Boeing certainly got a lot of media attention with the flight. But the distance record came at a time when several major international airlines -- Qantas, Singapore, Emirates and Cathay Pacific -- are looking at the 777-200LR for
ultra-long-haul flights. Boeing faces competition from Airbus in each of those hard-fought campaigns. A Singapore Airlines 777 pilot took turns flying the jet with five Boeing pilots, another pilot from General Electric and two more from Pakistan International Airlines. "We believe it is important to keep building the image
of this plane and its capabilities," Andersen said when asked why Boeing wanted the record. "This flight underscores our strategy of point-to-point service." The jet was still more than an hour away from Los Angeles, with a continent to cross and another ocean, when it passed the halfway point of the flight --something once known as the point of no return. But it was five minutes ahead of schedule and the 777's two General Electric engines -- the most powerful ever built -- had burned 3,000 pounds less fuel than had been estimated for that point before the flight began. "She knows what she has to do and she's going for it,"
Darcy-Hennemann said. That "she" is Blue Baby 2, the name the Boeing test pilots have fondly given the plane, which is painted in a Boeing blue livery. It is the second of two 777-200LRs that have been used in the test flight program that began last March.
flights.
Hong Kong to London the hard way, eastbound with
the winds. Non-stop across two oceans and North America -- more than halfway around the world. By the time the wheels of the Boeing jet touched down at London's Heathrow airport at 1:18 p.m. local time Thursday, it had set a distance record of 11,664 nautical miles or, measured on the same scale as a
car's odometer, 13,422 miles (21,601 kilometers). Flight time was 22 hours, 42 minutes.
Since the dawn of the jet age more than a half-century ago, no commercial jetliner had ever flown as far non-stop without refueling.
In 1962, a Boeing B-52 bomber flew 12,532 miles from Kadena, Okinawa, to an Air Force base outside of Madrid, Spain, setting the unlimited distance record by a jet without refueling.
Boeing 002, the call sign for the plane, beat that mark handily.
In doing so, it drew the attention even of those in aviation used to dealing with long-haul jets.
After the plane made its final turn point over JFK Airport and headed toward New England, an air traffic controller in Canada asked the pilots for their point of origin. The controller already knew the plane's destination was London.
Boeing test pilot Randy Austin, who was piloting the plane at the time, told the controller it had come from Hong Kong. The controller, apparently not believing it was the Hong Kong in Asia, asked for that city's four-letter designation used by pilots.
"Is this some kind of special flight?" the controller finally asked.
The controller was told it was a world record distance flight.
It is confusing.To go to London from Hong Kong, a plane would
usually fly over Southeast Asia, then the Middle Eastand into Europe. Planes have been making that flightnon-stop since 1983. The 5,300 nautical mile flight takes about 10 hours.Other airline pilots heard the conversation between the Boeing pilots and the air traffic controller and started calling the 777 pilots to wish them well and to ask questions. How much fuel did they have left; how long had they been flying? Pilot talk.The Worldliner's flight crew poses for a group photo after landing in London.
Calls came in from pilots of American, Continental and El Al jets that were in the vicinity of the 777.
The route the jet took across the Atlantic on its final of four legs was close to that flown by Charles Lindbergh in his Spirit of St. Louis in 1927. As the jet approached Heathrow for landing, it was
placed in a holding pattern that continued for about 20 minutes.
The Heathrow controller asked the 777 pilots how long they had been flying. Told the flight time so far was more than 22 hours, the controller who had put the jet on hold replied: "My apologies."
Boeing established the distance record with its 777-200LR Worldliner, the longest-range jetliner ever built. The plane, which will be able to carry more than 300 passengers in a three-class cabin arrangement, will not enter airline passenger service
until early next year. Instead of paying passengers, the plane on its record-setting jaunt carried nine pilots, two Boeing executives, several Boeing engineers, a flight attendant, customer representatives, 11 journalists and a BBC cameraman.
The flight started from Hong Kong Wednesday, flew into Thursday over the Pacific, then back into Wednesday
when it crossed the International Dateline, and finally into Thursday again.
Arriving at Heathrow Airport under cloudy skies, two airport fire trucks welcomed the big blue Boeing jet with streams of water as it pulled up to a waiting media crowd.
"I feel great," said Lars Anderson, vice president of Boeing's 777 program, who led the Boeing group off the plane, followed by the journalists who had been invited along for the history-making flight.
The flight crew came off last, led by Captain Suzanna Darcy-Hennemann, project leader for the record-breaking flight and chief test pilot for the 777-200LR program.
The plane had 360,732 pounds of fuel before the engines were started in Hong Kong -- more than the combined weight of the plane, its passengers and their bags. When it landed in London it had 18,700 pounds of fuel remaining.
Call it a publicity stunt -- and Boeing certainly got a lot of media attention with the flight. But the distance record came at a time when several major international airlines -- Qantas, Singapore, Emirates and Cathay Pacific -- are looking at the 777-200LR for
ultra-long-haul flights. Boeing faces competition from Airbus in each of those hard-fought campaigns. A Singapore Airlines 777 pilot took turns flying the jet with five Boeing pilots, another pilot from General Electric and two more from Pakistan International Airlines. "We believe it is important to keep building the image
of this plane and its capabilities," Andersen said when asked why Boeing wanted the record. "This flight underscores our strategy of point-to-point service." The jet was still more than an hour away from Los Angeles, with a continent to cross and another ocean, when it passed the halfway point of the flight --something once known as the point of no return. But it was five minutes ahead of schedule and the 777's two General Electric engines -- the most powerful ever built -- had burned 3,000 pounds less fuel than had been estimated for that point before the flight began. "She knows what she has to do and she's going for it,"
Darcy-Hennemann said. That "she" is Blue Baby 2, the name the Boeing test pilots have fondly given the plane, which is painted in a Boeing blue livery. It is the second of two 777-200LRs that have been used in the test flight program that began last March.
Last edited by Global Pilot; 4th Dec 2005 at 12:04.
