CARDIFF

[flower]

A big news article in the local rag today about the paper continuing the theme of growth at the airport.
It talks of the routes the airport is trying to attract, with the Middle East still very high on the agenda , with Scandinavia, Germany, particularly Frankfurt Düsseldorf and Munich as well as scheduled services to Italy.
In the news article it quotes David Bryon MD of BMI Baby state that they were considering the 4th aircraft for next year and further ones in subsequent years.

Lets just hope the airport can put together a team to really sell itself to potential operators.

[Turn It Off]

Please be Munich in time for the beer festival ...................

[WOWBOY]

Aer Arann have lauched the timetable for the CWL-ORK service:

Cork - Cardiff
Depart Arrive Frequency Flight No.
0830 0940 M T W T F - RE 421
1020 1130 - - - - - - S RE 421

Cardiff - Cork
Depart Arrive Frequency Flight No.
1010 1125 M T W T F - RE 422
1200 1315 - - - - - - S RE 422

Bookable Now!!!

[TwinAisle]

Just to rain on a small parade here.... the chances of baby operating many routes to either Germany or Scandinavia is pretty low, I'm afraid....

Remember who owns bmi.

bmi mainline has a few destinations in Denmark, and one in Germany, but that's for codeshare reasons. Since baby doesn't codeshare, you'll see why WW to MUC didn't last long when the cent dropped in Frankfurt.

[flower]

The article made no mention of whom they hoped would be doing routes to Germany and Scandinavia, it is known that other airlines have been in talks with the airport other than BMI regarding those routes.

[Fernando_Covas]

One of my conctact informed me that Air Berlin have rhoose in their sights....

[Rachman]

Disappointed!

I'm very disappointed at the 'Masterplan'. Its not really a plan at all, just a 'Wouldn't it be nice if...' type of scenario speculation. It doesn't mean they are actually going to do anything worthwhile.

I had hoped that somebody would have the guts to 'Do a Bristol' and start from scratch with a brand new terminal and apron designed with the future in mind, rather than more of the same measly piecemeal add-ons.

Lets face it, CWL has well and truly missed the boat -BRS has seen to that-and will never be more than it is now, a second-rate, hick little regional aerodrome.

AND I LOVE IT! Which is why it so hard for me to see its potential being squandered. It needed desperate action yesterday, not in 15 or 30 years time.

Look at the link road plans - they've been sat on these since I started here 30 years ago! Things move too slowly in this little backwater.

And here's a thing - what do people think the life-expectancy is of BA retaining their maintenance facility here? With the necessary alterations, what a superb ready-made terminal and apron area that could be!

Anyway, I'm unemployed now, so might have to leave this lil' ole' place for a while - but I'll be back!!!

R

[taffman]

I tend to agree with you Rachman. Rhoose lost it years ago when the new terminal was built. Those stupid stairs are beyond me, up, down, up down, when will we get to the arrivals area. Any poor sole arriving must instantly think that it is a joke place, which it is. Car park in a hole in the ground, another joke.

As you say, a new terminal is badly needed with some decent facilities, not dark corridors, and dismal departures area that never really sees the light of day. The plan is a fantasy work; drummed up to make it look like there is some thing happening. Pull it down, send every one to Bristol, cannot be many left who don’t already go now. Wake up every one, its never going to happen. Like the north south air link, fantasy stuff, sorry for the pun, head in the clouds. Why is it needed, time for some real life thinking.

Bring back Cambrian and the Viscounts, happy days.

[flower]

Taffman I have absolutely no desire to travel from Bristol Ta, not exactly the best example to give us of a good terminal. From where I live it is as quick to get to Birmingham and not much further to travel to Heathrow than to get to Bristol Lulsgate.

I to would have preferred to have seen a new terminal, I am not sure how they honestly think they can accommodate the expected increase in passengers unless they reopen the 3rd floor to passengers. Last year at times the current terminal was packed.

Rachman, sorry to hear you are now unemployed, I think so many of us work at the Airport long for it to be successful, it really is such a super place to live why would anyone want to move away from Cardiff.

[taffman]

I used Bristol as it is where a lot of Welsh people go from. My home is deepest West Wales and Cardiff offers me nothing and by the Time I have driven all the way up from the tip of West Wales, the other bit from Cardiff to Lulsgate is nothing. The bit from Cardiff to Rhoose is a nightmare, ten thousand roundabouts. Remember when they put them all in to slow traffic down on the top road from Barry to Cardiff, it worked big time.

[MerchantVenturer]

Originally Posted by flower

Taffman I have absolutely no desire to travel from Bristol Ta, not exactly the best example to give us of a good terminal. From where I live it is as quick to get to Birmingham and not much further to travel to Heathrow than to get to Bristol Lulsgate.

flower,

You make an interesting point, one that is undoubtedly true in reverse as well, and may explain the relative dearth of airlines, routes and pax out of CWL in recent years.

The MD of CWL has stated again, this time in connection with the publication of the master plan, that he needs not only to stem the flow of Welsh pax travelling from other airports, but also to attract more pax from the West Country to CWL.

People living in Greater Bristol have other alternatives to their local airport if, for whatever reason, they cannot or don't want to fly from it. Those in the north of Bristol and beyond are probably closer to BHX than you are, and those to the south of Bristol can reach EXT more easily than they can reach CWL.

LHR is even closer to Bristol residents than it is to you (I am taking the liberty of assuming you live in the CWL area).

Therefore, if CWL is to attract those Bristol area residents who don't fly from BRS it will have to put on something special, and from my perhaps naive viewpoint outside the industry it appears this can only be in two forms; services that don't operate out of BRS or a competitive financial inducement.

I live within fifteen minutes of BRS but would not hesitate to use CWL if circumstances made this a better option.

BTW what's wrong BRS and its 'new' terminal, apart from its already being too small at times?

[flower]

MerchantVenturer,

The biggest problem with Bristol for me is simply getting there, it is not the easiest and that comes from someone who has to go to work at Cardiff !!
What i dislike most about the terminal at Bristol is the fact everyone has to be bussed, I found the whole experience at times confusing and I'm comfortable at airports. When flights were due for boarding I found it to be chaotic.
We all have our comfort zones, I suppose i prefer being able to walk to the aircraft.

Cardiff has a long way to go in terms of selling the airport for flights if they wish to catch up with Bristol, just wish we could snatch the bristol Marketing team away from them

Regarding the arrivals at Cardiff for Taffman, in the last year I have only had to walk up a very slightly inclined ramp to baggage reclaim, I haven't had to encounter multiple flights of stairs, I have had to encounter multiple flights of stairs at other airports though such as Edinburgh so it isn't just Cardiff who may have had problems.

[taffman]

Will have a look then at the stairs situation on 25th April as I'm due in from AMS on that day. Have stayed away from CWL becasue of the whole dismal experience, hate it. Suppose we share the opposite views of BRS & CWL.

Have fun. TGIF

[pipertommy]

Agree with what has been said about the master plan,aload of nothing.It basically says what they won`t do ,don`t need ie no extra land.I have worked in cwl for seven years now and watched progress at what seems slower than snails pace!!!Any progress has just been gradual,no full on major route launches.Always three steps forward two back.Take likes of British regional pull out,my-travel pull out,Air Wales folding,first choice base the A320 in Exeter in winter because of cwl cost`s.New York flight going to Bristol.Even back to the old marketing of airport utter rubbish!!Any development is done at the least possible cost.Sad way to run an airport and it`s starting to show.I know some of the stuff i said is not DIRECTLY the airports fault but it plays a big part.

[TwinAisle]

OK. Firstly, can I ask what anyone expected to see in the Cardiff Plan? It would be a great read if it said "daily JFK, daily DXB, daily SYD, every major city in Europe and more widebodies on stand than you get at Changi" - but then what value would this be as a document?

Remember that this is the airport's response to a government process, and it should, and does, build on the possible. It would be great if the management at Cardiff could state with certainty which routes they are going to get, who is going to fly them etc, but like all airports, Cardiff has to pitch for its wishlist, and make sensible and realistic assumptions.

I have to say, having read a lot of these plans, the Cardiff one is really very good - realistic, well thought out, and IMHO correctly identifies where the holes in the network are. Also, it is nice to see that the terminal is being thoughtfully redeveloped with respect for what is there and the local environment.

The reason that BRS got a brand new terminal was down to the fact that the old one was a health hazard, designed, seemingly, to crush the spirits of all who used it.... Cardiff's terminal is, I think, pretty good. As for the going up and down stairs malarkey, I'm with Flower - there are a few steps at Cardiff, as there are at BRS arrivals. And BHX. And LHR T3. Cardiff also has the advantage of not making pax walk forever to and from the aircraft. And whilst I am on the subject, ever tried to push a trolley from car hire desk to terminal at BRS? Like the bleeding Matterhorn....

Cardiff's time will come.

[MerchantVenturer]

If interest on this MB in the respective master plans of the two neighbouring airports was an indicator of popularity CWL would be miles ahead. I have mentioned the BRS master plan in that airport’s thread more than once and it has generated very little interest.

As TwinAisle says, the master plans are a response to the government white paper and when people look back in nine or twenty-four years’ time (the two time spans within the plans) I would say confidently that some of the plans, if not the majority, will be seen to be wildly inaccurate in their predictions, either optimistic or pessimistic, because from this point in time no-one can say with any certainty what economic and other conditions will obtain in the years ahead.

I have only read a summary of CWL’s master plan but it does seem realistic, given the circumstances we know at present and might reasonably believe will eventuate in the next two decades or so.

But things can change. Ten years ago who would have forecast the sea change that low cost airlines have brought to the aviation scene, both in the UK and further afield? This sort of expansion could continue apace or something might happen in the world to throw everything out of kilter. However, airports have to plan for the most favourable scenario, whilst retaining a sense of proportion, and I think CWL has done this in its plan.

Incidentally, I think BRS has too, and I have a copy of all 160-odd pages of its draft master plan. The uphill trek from the car hire station would go and there would be more aircraft stands available for walk-on access (there are about six now – not all stands have to be bussed).

I sense that CWL is coming out of a period of undoubted under-performance. The charter market and seat-only sun routes are on a definite upturn and it seems highly likely that more and more European scheduled destinations will come on stream. In fact, they will have to if the airport is to expand in line with its plan.

[Rachman]

CWL MASTERPLAN

I take on board all the sensible comments. It is just frustration tha gets the better of me at times.

Funny how some airports seem better at judging the 'chicken and egg' scenario than others.

I am convinced that a new, modern and exciting airport, to complement our modern and exciting capitol city, would naturally generate more business without really trying. With sensible pricing policies and generous financial incentives, I am sure new airlines would be beating a path to JH's door looking to do business with him.

At the moment, any airline executive who comes to take a look at CWL with a view to putting a shiny new airplane here, sees nothing but a crumbling, tired and bastardised collection of lego decorated with the hazy notion of being a top-flight airport.

Cardiff was built for those halcyon days of aviation which entailed half a dozen viscounts or 748's a day with the occasional excitement of a comet 4c pitching in to whisk 119 novice travellers off to PMI for 2 weeks. The airport was very good at dealing with this type of traffic, and really, its changed little in essence since then. Or the occasional 1000-bomber raid of diverting transatlantic DC-8's and 707's whenever London's weather fell below 500 meters. Something you will have noticed hardly ever happens nowadays.

In those days there was no security to speak of, passengers were gentlefolk who did as they were asked and being a baggage handler was a position that many aspired to.

All that has changed now: You can't move without assessing the security implications, or having them assessed for you, passengers are, in the main, pig-ignorant, demanding little control freaks (some would say "more sophisticated" - huh!) who's every last threat is laced with litigation (sorry Merchant Venturer, I recognise you as one of the few more enlightened tarvellers who would most certainly not fall into this category!) and, come on, who wants to be a baggage handler now?

All this means that times have changed, and will continue to change, and it is, I feel, incumbent on the airport management to be proactive rather than reactive when it comes to airport planning - to lead instead of following too late.

Up the workers!!

Rachman

[TwinAisle]

New, tarty, shiny airports tend to turn many sensible airlines off... remember who gets to pay for what Michael O'Leary has dubbed "taj mahals" - the airline, and by extension the passenger, which doesn't help the economics.

Have to say, in all the airlines I have worked with, the state of the airport mattered not a jot, so long as it was safe.

[Rachman]

...and since when has Michael O'Leary been the arbiter of all things aviation great? Of course any airline has to be a success in order to survive, but in O'Leary's case, success does not equate with greatness.

It is precisely because of the likes of Ryanair and others, with their ruthlessly cynical and bullying tactics, that ground-based airport jobs have become so devalued, both monetarily and in standing.

Take your average Aviance/Servisair Load Controller - a pivotal position which carries enormous individual responsibility (answerable in law) and without whom no airline could (legally) operate - is paid a criminally low salary which has changed little in real terms over the last 20 years. This is because the likes of O'Leary have squeezed handling agent companies to the point of extinction, where in order to survive they have to pay their staff the absoulute minimum they can get away with. The balance is all wrong.

Instead of O'Leary saying "If you want the business of handling my airline, you must drop your rates by 50%", it should be the handling agent saying "If you want to be handled by us, then pay us the going rate so I can give my guys a decent salary". Or somewhere inbetween. Too many deals, too many bribes. All the UK handling agents should get together on this and be resolute in an effort to achieve fair wages for their staff and a fair return for their businesses. If the airlines have to up their fares to pay for it, then so be it.

All Load Control/Despatch jobs should be licensed so that their function is revalued in status and rewarded financially (just like pilots, engineers and ATC - the dispatch function carries just as much responsibility in terms of aircraft safety and security) - I would suggest salaries in the region of £22000 pa basic would reflect this new worth (along with 'proper' training), around £8-10k mre than they currently get. The airlines would have to pay for this via far more realistic handling agreements.

It is well known that nobody ever works in aviation to get rich (except pilots, engineers and ATC -sorry Flower!) - 90% of ground staff are in it because they love it, but that doesn't excuse the pi*s-poor wages they are paid via the extortion by fat-cat airline executives.

It is my opinion that the executives behind Lo-Co airlines are getting fat purely at the expense of airports and their staff, and their passengers are being bamboozled into believing they are getting a great deal, which, with a few exceptions, they are not.

The Lo-Co bubble will burst and when it does, perhaps aviation can get back to what it used to be and should be, the preserve of gentlefolk who sit down, shut up and do as they're told, but are willing to pay for this new level of service.

What has all this to do with the future of CWL, you may well ask?

I shoot my own argument for a new airport down in flames, I guess, because a new airport in a potentially retracting industry would be something of a white elephant - I'd rather be in work in the current grotty surroundings, but with decent wages, than be unemployed looking from the outside in to a gleaming new but empty glass palace.

But, back to reality, Imperial Airways is not about to stage a come-back and the Lo-Co's are likely to be around for some time yet weaving their intricate webs of deceit and pushing handling agents out of business, so, new airport? Its all a bit of a gamble, JH, ain't it?

R

[TwinAisle]

I'd rather be in work in the current grotty surroundings, but with decent wages, than be unemployed looking from the outside in to a gleaming new but empty glass palace.

Exactly my point. Must be better to have modest and realistic improvements at Cardiff which don't add massively to the airport charges, than building a "taj mahal" which no-one wants to fly to?

As for MO'L - love him or loathe him, his airline works. Can't see Ryanair going anywhere soon. And his style of thinking re enormous new airports is being reflected in a lot of boardrooms.