LEEDS
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Leeds
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Leodis / Hooded
1) loosing Thomsonfly would be a problem. In seat terms, they are the largest charter operator over summer and represent the vast majority of what is left of the winter IT programme
2) I suspect your crtiticism of 'Thomsonfly' should be redirected towards 'TUI'. The lack of charter capacity is I imagine a decision by the tour operator not to offer seats ex-Leeds, rather than an unwillingness on the airline's part not to fly the routes. The clearest evidence is surely the large number of 'w' patterns ex-Leeds. I can't believe this is a choice of the airline arm but rather a reflection of the tour operating division choosing not to offer additional routes / seats from Leeds. So today (Tues) we had a 757 routing LBA-ALC-xxx-ALC-LBA. At NCL, it was NCL-ALC-NCL-TFS-NCL. Who made the decision not to fly Leeds-Tenerife and instead 'w' the aircraft into MME otr HUY? Not the airline I suspect
3) The lack of charter capacity relative to other airports, compared to a very healthy position on leisure orientated scheduled services relative to the same airports, is widely known and acknowledged. I suspect it is not being allowed to drfit by without efforts and hard work on a number of fronts to resolve it. Ultimately it remains the battle it always has been for the last 10 or 11 years, which is presuading tour operators to serve the Leeds/Bradford catchment from Leeds Bradford Airport rather than Manchester. Just as it is with services to the Isle of Man, Germany, Scandanavia, Pakistan, the US.........
682
1) loosing Thomsonfly would be a problem. In seat terms, they are the largest charter operator over summer and represent the vast majority of what is left of the winter IT programme
2) I suspect your crtiticism of 'Thomsonfly' should be redirected towards 'TUI'. The lack of charter capacity is I imagine a decision by the tour operator not to offer seats ex-Leeds, rather than an unwillingness on the airline's part not to fly the routes. The clearest evidence is surely the large number of 'w' patterns ex-Leeds. I can't believe this is a choice of the airline arm but rather a reflection of the tour operating division choosing not to offer additional routes / seats from Leeds. So today (Tues) we had a 757 routing LBA-ALC-xxx-ALC-LBA. At NCL, it was NCL-ALC-NCL-TFS-NCL. Who made the decision not to fly Leeds-Tenerife and instead 'w' the aircraft into MME otr HUY? Not the airline I suspect
3) The lack of charter capacity relative to other airports, compared to a very healthy position on leisure orientated scheduled services relative to the same airports, is widely known and acknowledged. I suspect it is not being allowed to drfit by without efforts and hard work on a number of fronts to resolve it. Ultimately it remains the battle it always has been for the last 10 or 11 years, which is presuading tour operators to serve the Leeds/Bradford catchment from Leeds Bradford Airport rather than Manchester. Just as it is with services to the Isle of Man, Germany, Scandanavia, Pakistan, the US.........
682
Join Date: Aug 2000
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I agree with your views on the sell-off - selling to the 'right' operator will be key though.
I also agree that upgrading to CAT2 on 14 and increasing the LDA on 32 can only make the place more attractive to airlines looking at LBA as a place to do business.
My latest 'fag packet' estimate for 2006 passenger numbers (without any knowledge of what might happen over the last 4 months of the year) is 2.8m, so yes it will need some rabbits to be pulled out of a big hat to push the full year number up towards 3m.
I'm not convinced by the argument that payload restrictions are a big issue for much of the market that the airport is trying to chase. The reason the based T'Fly 757 operated a 'w' into MME or HUY yesterday and not LBA-TFS or the reason the aircraft is only stationed for a part week rather that a full week just can't be explained by 'operational restrictions'. Clearly someone in TUI doesn't want to commit to LBA-LPA, LBA-FUE, LBA-MIR, LBA-PFO, LBA-TFS etc. Maybe because of Jet2 operating to TFS, maybe because they want to shift the demand to DSA or MAN or maybe because using the a/c for services elsewhere is considered less risky and more profitable than running extra LBA routes. If a second weekly LBA-TFS is worth x and using the same aircraft to 'w' a MME-ALC is x + 10%, then it;'s obvious which they'd go far, regardless of the fact that LBA-TFS might get filled. My point is that whatever the reason is , it's not because the TUI 757's can't get from LBA-TFS with a full load.
I'm convinced you can apply this example to a bucket load of potential charter routes. Bear in mind on the charter front, the problem is more to do with lack of capacity on routes that are served, rather than routes not being served at all. There ARE flights to Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, there just aren't enough of them. That's not a problem brought on by operational restrictions. The problem, whatever it is exactly, lies with the tour operators and there needs to be a change in attitude from them if the market is to grow. It is certainly still a prize worth chasing for LBA. I've just added up charter passengers at Cardiff for Summer 05 and note they were double the Leeds volumes. If LBA could match CWL, that would be an extra 300,000 passengers in summer. The LBA catchment is obviously big enough - LBA handled 600,000 more overseas scheduled passengers than CWL over the same period and actually matched NCL. Regardless of your views of road access, speed cameras, DSA and whatever else, the people are coming in numbers on the scheduled front. But they can't use flights that don't exist, and that's the issue with charter.
682
I also agree that upgrading to CAT2 on 14 and increasing the LDA on 32 can only make the place more attractive to airlines looking at LBA as a place to do business.
My latest 'fag packet' estimate for 2006 passenger numbers (without any knowledge of what might happen over the last 4 months of the year) is 2.8m, so yes it will need some rabbits to be pulled out of a big hat to push the full year number up towards 3m.
I'm not convinced by the argument that payload restrictions are a big issue for much of the market that the airport is trying to chase. The reason the based T'Fly 757 operated a 'w' into MME or HUY yesterday and not LBA-TFS or the reason the aircraft is only stationed for a part week rather that a full week just can't be explained by 'operational restrictions'. Clearly someone in TUI doesn't want to commit to LBA-LPA, LBA-FUE, LBA-MIR, LBA-PFO, LBA-TFS etc. Maybe because of Jet2 operating to TFS, maybe because they want to shift the demand to DSA or MAN or maybe because using the a/c for services elsewhere is considered less risky and more profitable than running extra LBA routes. If a second weekly LBA-TFS is worth x and using the same aircraft to 'w' a MME-ALC is x + 10%, then it;'s obvious which they'd go far, regardless of the fact that LBA-TFS might get filled. My point is that whatever the reason is , it's not because the TUI 757's can't get from LBA-TFS with a full load.
I'm convinced you can apply this example to a bucket load of potential charter routes. Bear in mind on the charter front, the problem is more to do with lack of capacity on routes that are served, rather than routes not being served at all. There ARE flights to Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, there just aren't enough of them. That's not a problem brought on by operational restrictions. The problem, whatever it is exactly, lies with the tour operators and there needs to be a change in attitude from them if the market is to grow. It is certainly still a prize worth chasing for LBA. I've just added up charter passengers at Cardiff for Summer 05 and note they were double the Leeds volumes. If LBA could match CWL, that would be an extra 300,000 passengers in summer. The LBA catchment is obviously big enough - LBA handled 600,000 more overseas scheduled passengers than CWL over the same period and actually matched NCL. Regardless of your views of road access, speed cameras, DSA and whatever else, the people are coming in numbers on the scheduled front. But they can't use flights that don't exist, and that's the issue with charter.
682
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Hi
Airtours holidays have addeed a extra Late night Palma saturday service to LBA. Its to be Operated again by Futura International B737's as same as last summer. The flight Arrives LBA at 23:55 on Saturday and departs at 00:50 on Sunday morning.
Airtours holidays have addeed a extra Late night Palma saturday service to LBA. Its to be Operated again by Futura International B737's as same as last summer. The flight Arrives LBA at 23:55 on Saturday and departs at 00:50 on Sunday morning.
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Originally Posted by LBIA
Hi
Airtours holidays have addeed a extra Late night Palma saturday service to LBA. Its to be Operated again by Futura International B737's as same as last summer. The flight Arrives LBA at 23:55 on Saturday and departs at 00:50 on Sunday morning.
Airtours holidays have addeed a extra Late night Palma saturday service to LBA. Its to be Operated again by Futura International B737's as same as last summer. The flight Arrives LBA at 23:55 on Saturday and departs at 00:50 on Sunday morning.
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Originally Posted by RobT100
Oh great ! Ill have to remember to get that one
On the grapevine today I heard that Jet2 are seriously looking at new Greek destinations, this would obviously be great new if it were true, and it would show yet more commitment to LBA. The only problem is that it would almost certainly finish off any chance of Astraeus returning for S07 with TC and AT. But at least Jet2 seem to understand that Leeds can and does work. Why are the other airlines so scared of giving Leeds a chance?
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Leodis - you state that the arrival of Jet2 onto 'Greek destinations' would be the end of a series of charter flights, then ask in the next breath "Why are the other airlines so scared of giving Leeds a chance?" If you believe your own hypothesis on Greece, you've answered your own question, surely?
682
682
In all fairness, the arrival of Jet2 onto Malaga and Alicante still has not stopped Astraeus and Thomsonfly operating charters on the same routes! There is still potential to grow into Greece with extra Corfu flights and other routes like Kefallinia, Kos and Skiathos which provide potential to expand. Even if Jet2 did saturate a route like Rhodes, it would be possible to move the charter programme around to adapt it.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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I know Leeds has it's problems, but it amazes me we get all this doom and gloom at the start of what will be the best summer ever in terms of pax numbers and routes. I mean just look at the extra flights compared to last summer:
SCHEDULED.
Warsaw - Centralwings
Rome - Jet2
Milan - Jet2
Mahon - Jet2
Pisa - Jet2
Tenerife - Jet2
Bergerac - flybe
Southampton - flybe (Extra flight Now operates twice daily)
Bristol - Air Southwest (Extra flight Now operates three times daily)
Newquay - Air Southwest (Only New Direct flights)
Dublin - Ryanair (Upgraded to larger 185 seater B737-800's)
Inverness - Eastern
CHARTER
Bodrum - Onur Air
Ibiza - Thomsonfly (Extra weekly flight)
Palma - Thomsonfly (Extra Weekly Flight)
Paphos - Thomsonfly
Crete - Astraeus
Rhodes - Astraeus
Zakynthos - Astraeus (Replaces Thomsonfly flight)
Corfu - Astreaus (Second weekly service along with Thomsonflys)
Jersey - New Air southwest charter
Now I don't know about anyone else, but for what is still a reletively small regional airport, that represents tremendous growth from where i'm standing!
SCHEDULED.
Warsaw - Centralwings
Rome - Jet2
Milan - Jet2
Mahon - Jet2
Pisa - Jet2
Tenerife - Jet2
Bergerac - flybe
Southampton - flybe (Extra flight Now operates twice daily)
Bristol - Air Southwest (Extra flight Now operates three times daily)
Newquay - Air Southwest (Only New Direct flights)
Dublin - Ryanair (Upgraded to larger 185 seater B737-800's)
Inverness - Eastern
CHARTER
Bodrum - Onur Air
Ibiza - Thomsonfly (Extra weekly flight)
Palma - Thomsonfly (Extra Weekly Flight)
Paphos - Thomsonfly
Crete - Astraeus
Rhodes - Astraeus
Zakynthos - Astraeus (Replaces Thomsonfly flight)
Corfu - Astreaus (Second weekly service along with Thomsonflys)
Jersey - New Air southwest charter
Now I don't know about anyone else, but for what is still a reletively small regional airport, that represents tremendous growth from where i'm standing!
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Yes, there are some very positive stories for the coming summer. How well the airport is doing overall is a view on whether you think it's a 2 million passenger airport punching above it's weight or a 4 - 5 million airport that only meets half of it's local demand. My personal view is that it's more a case of the latter than the former and I believe it is charter flights particularly where much of the shortfall could be redressed. Fairly crude analysis of the passenger volumes published on the CAA website provide an insight into the problem.
European scheduled passengers in summer 05 (millions)
MAN 4.1
BRS 1.3
EMA 1.1
GLA 0.9
NCL 0.9
LBA 0.9
CWL 0.4
European charter passengers over the same period (millions)
MAN 5.6
GLA 1.4
NCL 1.2
EMA 1.0
BRS 1.0
CWL 0.6
LBA 0.3
How you interpret these is a matter of personal opinion. To me, they indicate that LBA's scheduled performance is closely aligned to other UK regional airports and that this is not 'over performance' on the part of LBA, rather a reflection of its underlying catchment area. This contrasts markedly with the performance on charter services which is significantly out of line given the same catchment area. Unless Leodis is correct and the presence of scheduled / low-cost flights are to the detriment of charter services (which the data at other airports doesn't really support) then it's hard to avoid the conclusion that charter massively underperformance at Leeds. I find it interesting that the European scheduled market at MAN is 4 times bigger than LBA, but the European charter market is 19 times bigger. Also, the relatively small population base in South Wales supports a charter market twice as big as Leeds' - a marked contrast to the capacity offered by Jet2 & co at Leeds and bmi baby & co in SW. There is clearly a very strong case for more charter capacity at Leeds.
European scheduled passengers in summer 05 (millions)
MAN 4.1
BRS 1.3
EMA 1.1
GLA 0.9
NCL 0.9
LBA 0.9
CWL 0.4
European charter passengers over the same period (millions)
MAN 5.6
GLA 1.4
NCL 1.2
EMA 1.0
BRS 1.0
CWL 0.6
LBA 0.3
How you interpret these is a matter of personal opinion. To me, they indicate that LBA's scheduled performance is closely aligned to other UK regional airports and that this is not 'over performance' on the part of LBA, rather a reflection of its underlying catchment area. This contrasts markedly with the performance on charter services which is significantly out of line given the same catchment area. Unless Leodis is correct and the presence of scheduled / low-cost flights are to the detriment of charter services (which the data at other airports doesn't really support) then it's hard to avoid the conclusion that charter massively underperformance at Leeds. I find it interesting that the European scheduled market at MAN is 4 times bigger than LBA, but the European charter market is 19 times bigger. Also, the relatively small population base in South Wales supports a charter market twice as big as Leeds' - a marked contrast to the capacity offered by Jet2 & co at Leeds and bmi baby & co in SW. There is clearly a very strong case for more charter capacity at Leeds.
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Some very good points raised.
The LBA charter market is an interesting one, when the tour ops try more 'interesting routes' from LBA, they seems to be a very mixed reaction. For example the Thomsonfly flights to Varna and Bodrum that were due to begin this summer, apparantly the loads were really bad. I think flights to these sort of places from LBA are more suited to the likes of the 73G that AEU operate, rather than the 757/767 that Thomsonfly operate.
The LBA charter market is an interesting one, when the tour ops try more 'interesting routes' from LBA, they seems to be a very mixed reaction. For example the Thomsonfly flights to Varna and Bodrum that were due to begin this summer, apparantly the loads were really bad. I think flights to these sort of places from LBA are more suited to the likes of the 73G that AEU operate, rather than the 757/767 that Thomsonfly operate.
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Does anyone have any info on winter flight programe yet? what are astreaus up to??
forget "Greek is the word", "nothing is the word"
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Originally Posted by RobT100
I was about to ask the same question after reading this earlier I have found nothing to back up these claims.
According to Look North this evening, a local campaign group is calling for a public consultation on the proposals. I find this odd given the airport has only just completed a large public consultation exercise on its masterplan. Given that the public reaction to this was "over-whelmingly positive" and that private investment should simply allow some of masterplan ideas to come to fruition more quickly, I'm not sure what they expect to achieve from this.
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Originally Posted by Jet2LBA
"Greek" would never be the word for winter charter ops from any UK airport.
Lets just hope that they can keep a hold on the progress they've made for this summer.
Last edited by Leodis; 8th Mar 2006 at 10:45.
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Jet 2 Dusseldorf -new flight.
Looks like the long awaited, rumoured, expected and falsley announced Jet 2 route to Dusseldorf has been announced officially, at last. Starting May 8 daily except Sat. This flight should be very welcomed from the business community in Yorkshire and Humberside.