Can we trust BHX aircrew ?
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Can we trust BHX aircrew ?
Now before everybody gets offensive this is a serious thread about a current ATC trial happening at various airports around the UK.
Birmingham ATC are conducting a trial of no conditional clearances given to vehicles, tows, or Aircraft affecting runway operations!
This trial is 19 days into a 2 month period and quite frankly (in my opinion) expedition is totally lost because of it. Pilots sit as number 1 at the holding point unware when they are going to line-up!
The trial has come about as part of a drive to stop runway incursions within the UK but what does this mean? does it mean that quite frankly ATC dont trust pilots to line-up in accordance with a clearance? its a valid point.
ATC Birmingham have a website with a facility for local pilots to express how they view current procedures:
http://www.egbb.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/...num=1116487551
Also a 4page newletter for May05 is online for pilots to understand new procedures etc:
http://www.egbb.co.uk/News.htm
Regards
BBB
Birmingham ATC are conducting a trial of no conditional clearances given to vehicles, tows, or Aircraft affecting runway operations!
This trial is 19 days into a 2 month period and quite frankly (in my opinion) expedition is totally lost because of it. Pilots sit as number 1 at the holding point unware when they are going to line-up!
The trial has come about as part of a drive to stop runway incursions within the UK but what does this mean? does it mean that quite frankly ATC dont trust pilots to line-up in accordance with a clearance? its a valid point.
ATC Birmingham have a website with a facility for local pilots to express how they view current procedures:
http://www.egbb.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum/...num=1116487551
Also a 4page newletter for May05 is online for pilots to understand new procedures etc:
http://www.egbb.co.uk/News.htm
Regards
BBB
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Have you had to increase spacing on final approach ?
Seems ludicrous to me, they are trusted to fly a mega bucks aircraft across the world with Pax in but we can't trust them to understand a conditional clearance. never heard anything quite so ridiculous. Who on earth thought that idea up ?
Seems ludicrous to me, they are trusted to fly a mega bucks aircraft across the world with Pax in but we can't trust them to understand a conditional clearance. never heard anything quite so ridiculous. Who on earth thought that idea up ?
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Looks like somebody from the Health & Safety Executive thought that one up... 
It'll be interesting to see how many delays and go-arounds that great idea ends up generating.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
It'll be interesting to see how many delays and go-arounds that great idea ends up generating.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
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As far as I am aware, Manchester are conducting the same trial.
I'm not sure about Heathrow, but I can understand the confusion with conditional clearances at LHR as they are issued to more than one aircraft at a time.
Predominantly at BHX its normally one aircraft that gets the clearance such as "after the landing A320 etc, line-up and wait"
Runway incursion is evidently the hot cookie at the moment, but is this:
1) a step too far:
2) too restrictive;
3) insulting to pilots
4) justified in the name of safety
5) a good idea but needs modifying slightly (ie only given to 1 acft and not multiple ala LHR)
what will the trial conclude?
BBB
I'm not sure about Heathrow, but I can understand the confusion with conditional clearances at LHR as they are issued to more than one aircraft at a time.
Predominantly at BHX its normally one aircraft that gets the clearance such as "after the landing A320 etc, line-up and wait"
Runway incursion is evidently the hot cookie at the moment, but is this:
1) a step too far:
2) too restrictive;
3) insulting to pilots
4) justified in the name of safety
5) a good idea but needs modifying slightly (ie only given to 1 acft and not multiple ala LHR)
what will the trial conclude?
BBB
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Yes Manchester has the multiple crossing
situation as does Heathrow as 3 aircraft can and very often do cross at once
Just listening to Manchester tower it appears that thay are still giving provisional clearances
Maybe some one from ATC can clarify
If each flight has to be called individually with crossing clearance after the landing aircraft has passed it would seem to me that a lot of extra calls would have to be made and a lot slower flow of crossing traffic, which would cause a need for larger gaps in landing traffic and therefore much reduced runway rate
G-I-B
situation as does Heathrow as 3 aircraft can and very often do cross at once
Just listening to Manchester tower it appears that thay are still giving provisional clearances
Maybe some one from ATC can clarify
If each flight has to be called individually with crossing clearance after the landing aircraft has passed it would seem to me that a lot of extra calls would have to be made and a lot slower flow of crossing traffic, which would cause a need for larger gaps in landing traffic and therefore much reduced runway rate
G-I-B
Last edited by GOLF-INDIA BRAVO; 19th May 2005 at 10:11.
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My ego stays outside the flight deck. I hope I would never find the absence of a conditional clearance 'insulting' - to do so ought to cast serious doubts on my priorities as a professional pilot.
So it slows things down. So what? That's a problem for NATS management, the airlines and the CAA. Not those in charge of the safety of our aircraft: the pilots and ATCOs. A conditional clearance at a non-LHR airport saves what, about 30sec of line-up time? Is that worth the risk (minimal, maybe, but certainly real) of aircrew making a mistake (it happens!) and causing a runway incursion?
Worrying about time at the hold is a quick way to high blood pressure. Chill out!
So it slows things down. So what? That's a problem for NATS management, the airlines and the CAA. Not those in charge of the safety of our aircraft: the pilots and ATCOs. A conditional clearance at a non-LHR airport saves what, about 30sec of line-up time? Is that worth the risk (minimal, maybe, but certainly real) of aircrew making a mistake (it happens!) and causing a runway incursion?
Worrying about time at the hold is a quick way to high blood pressure. Chill out!
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Spiney Norman
How will it operate at Manchester?
Will the controller hold say 3 aircraft at hold and cross them all together
linking 3 callsigns together with one message or call all 3 aircraft separately
G-I-B
How will it operate at Manchester?
Will the controller hold say 3 aircraft at hold and cross them all together
linking 3 callsigns together with one message or call all 3 aircraft separately
G-I-B
GIB
I would think that individual clearances would be the order of the day. If you imagine that as a landing/departing aircraft rolls past the crossing points the AIR 1 controller would be able to cascade the clearances to multiple crossers. Crossing procedures are strictly adhered to and I can imagine safety issues being seriously flagged up with a 'mass clearances' with 'break break' between individual callsigns! But we'll await official guidance. I believe we may start the trial in the autumn.
Spiney.
I would think that individual clearances would be the order of the day. If you imagine that as a landing/departing aircraft rolls past the crossing points the AIR 1 controller would be able to cascade the clearances to multiple crossers. Crossing procedures are strictly adhered to and I can imagine safety issues being seriously flagged up with a 'mass clearances' with 'break break' between individual callsigns! But we'll await official guidance. I believe we may start the trial in the autumn.
Spiney.
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Gary Lager,
30 seconds may be all it takes but in those extra seconds I have other tasks which tie up my time. There is also the issue of increased workload on other staff such as the Approach controllers dealing with potential increased spacing on Final approach and the risk of additional go arounds.
In situations where I am unhappy with conditional clearances I simply do not pass them, however with Crews like yourself I see no issue whatsoever in passing such a clearance.
I do think they should relate to one aircraft only, that way there should be no ambiguity, but my job would be made all the more difficult if I were unable to pass conditional clearances.
Are other Countries following this path or is this yet another Knee jerk reaction we seem so good at these days ?
30 seconds may be all it takes but in those extra seconds I have other tasks which tie up my time. There is also the issue of increased workload on other staff such as the Approach controllers dealing with potential increased spacing on Final approach and the risk of additional go arounds.
In situations where I am unhappy with conditional clearances I simply do not pass them, however with Crews like yourself I see no issue whatsoever in passing such a clearance.
I do think they should relate to one aircraft only, that way there should be no ambiguity, but my job would be made all the more difficult if I were unable to pass conditional clearances.
Are other Countries following this path or is this yet another Knee jerk reaction we seem so good at these days ?
Last edited by flower; 19th May 2005 at 11:38.
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Flower
Then it is up to you and your colleagues to report to the desk-bound nerds who dream up these 'good ideas' your feelings, and in no uncertain terms, at the end of the trial period. Because, as we well know, many trials become go on to be cast in stone because of the apathy of those have have taken part.
Where is the evidence that a conditional clearance has lead to a runway incident - and that is a geniune request fro the data if of course it exisit and is not anecdotal.
All in all, yet another symptom of the growing nanny state.
Then it is up to you and your colleagues to report to the desk-bound nerds who dream up these 'good ideas' your feelings, and in no uncertain terms, at the end of the trial period. Because, as we well know, many trials become go on to be cast in stone because of the apathy of those have have taken part.
Where is the evidence that a conditional clearance has lead to a runway incident - and that is a geniune request fro the data if of course it exisit and is not anecdotal.
All in all, yet another symptom of the growing nanny state.
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Judge 11 absolutely, apathy often prevents people making noises until after the deed is done. I however could never be described as apathetic when it comes to making my feelings known at work as my colleagues will attest.
If they should bring this in with us I have no doubt I will find reason to 4114 it.
If they should bring this in with us I have no doubt I will find reason to 4114 it.
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There was a thread about this some months ago. I think it is all to do with the ATSIN that units had to review their procedures for conditional clearances.
A CAA document published this spring has this to say:
" 30% of runway incursion incidents involved conditional clearances and in 22% of the incidents this was the main casual factor"
Full document at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/17/Runway%...20bulletin.pdf
A CAA document published this spring has this to say:
" 30% of runway incursion incidents involved conditional clearances and in 22% of the incidents this was the main casual factor"
Full document at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/17/Runway%...20bulletin.pdf
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This is a crisis.... Thanks for the CAA report link. Its a very interesting read.
From the stats its quite evident that the majority of incursions take place at London Airports so why conduct a trial at a regional airport where the results are going to have minimal impact ?
Personally, I believe that the emphasis should be made on not crossing red stop bars! It doesnt matter if you have a conditional clearance, if the stop bar is lit you dont cross it, you query it instead. this method would put a fail safe method for entering runways in. DAYLIGHT hours? then have stop bars illuminated! surely this is a better way forward! I digress.
For the trial at BHX, its very important to get the views of aircrew who fly in/out of BHX. You can do this via the Brum ATC website which is monitored by the ATC technical committee!
http://www.egbb.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum...;num=1116487551
Serious comments only please
Many Thanks
BBB
From the stats its quite evident that the majority of incursions take place at London Airports so why conduct a trial at a regional airport where the results are going to have minimal impact ?
Personally, I believe that the emphasis should be made on not crossing red stop bars! It doesnt matter if you have a conditional clearance, if the stop bar is lit you dont cross it, you query it instead. this method would put a fail safe method for entering runways in. DAYLIGHT hours? then have stop bars illuminated! surely this is a better way forward! I digress.
For the trial at BHX, its very important to get the views of aircrew who fly in/out of BHX. You can do this via the Brum ATC website which is monitored by the ATC technical committee!
http://www.egbb.co.uk/cgi-bin/forum...;num=1116487551
Serious comments only please
Many Thanks
BBB
Last edited by Bombay Bad Boy; 20th May 2005 at 09:48.
