World's worst airport for delayed arrivals.
Eight Gun Fighter
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I only fly into LHR 6 or 7 times a year. We are usually early but after a few laps generally land on sked. The usual delay is for a gate that someone else is late off.
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What is the current saturation per hour number for LHR?
(max arrivals for each hour).
I suppose the reason for all the stacks that ya got going over there is because of all the one runwayed airstrips around the London area. (Gatwick, Stanstead, Luton).
It would appear that rwy development has not kept up with the times.
(max arrivals for each hour).
I suppose the reason for all the stacks that ya got going over there is because of all the one runwayed airstrips around the London area. (Gatwick, Stanstead, Luton).
It would appear that rwy development has not kept up with the times.
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Surely the question should be 'Which airport has the worst Arrival delays aginst Pax numbers?' Surely the larger the airport and the amount of slots the more delay you will get?
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Are we actually arriving late??
Do airlines such as BA take holding times into account when publishing STA's.
I flew in from Delhi with BA last week, into a head wind (9hrs in the air), we then held for 20 minutes and had a 25 minute taxi onto stand - STILL ARRIVED ON STAND ON TIME.
BA must be extending their scheduled sector times to account for the holds, because lets face it a hold is always probable at Heathrow.
Do airlines such as BA take holding times into account when publishing STA's.
I flew in from Delhi with BA last week, into a head wind (9hrs in the air), we then held for 20 minutes and had a 25 minute taxi onto stand - STILL ARRIVED ON STAND ON TIME.
BA must be extending their scheduled sector times to account for the holds, because lets face it a hold is always probable at Heathrow.
Freight God
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Reasonable airlines (meaning such with experienced professionals in scheduling and not college freshmen) do actually take such things like expected holdings and/or long taxi times into consideration for their schedules.
DEN or DFW are good examples as depending on where you land your taxi time might well be over 20 minutes (unless you wnat a nice discussion with the chief pilot of why it is that after you land there chronically the front wheels need to be changed).
Coming back to congestion, FRA is no better than LHR (with the exeption that there are not a multitude of other airports around it), AMS had to add that 'polderbaan' wich is almost a separate airport (happy taxi times) and CDG did not drastically increase their capacity with the two new paralells. They could build a fifth in case of, but right now that is not needed, and also they have some limitations due to airspace, although not as bad as LHR. Their real problem starts on the ground. Ever tried to connect form T1 to T2? You are probably faster connecting from CDG to ORY...
SPeaking of congestion, there is one airport I know that is heavily congested for about 5 hours of the day, otherwise it is almost empty. They have 4 Runways but also a complex airspace structure, and strange enough still people want to go there although it is a dreadful airport to arrive at and depart from. Which one? Ever been to JFK???
Well, hvaing said that, Unmanned, you have to understand that people WILL use the airport of THEIR conveninace,a dn they don't care a thing about a holding or two, what they care about is if they will land on time (as published), get to the city (that's what you have the blue line for) or to the connecting flight. The rest, the public does not give any second of thought. That is an academic question for the pilots and trhe airlines, nothing less nothing more.
So you can try to continue to bash LHR and BA as you like to do, but it will not change a thing.
DEN or DFW are good examples as depending on where you land your taxi time might well be over 20 minutes (unless you wnat a nice discussion with the chief pilot of why it is that after you land there chronically the front wheels need to be changed).
Coming back to congestion, FRA is no better than LHR (with the exeption that there are not a multitude of other airports around it), AMS had to add that 'polderbaan' wich is almost a separate airport (happy taxi times) and CDG did not drastically increase their capacity with the two new paralells. They could build a fifth in case of, but right now that is not needed, and also they have some limitations due to airspace, although not as bad as LHR. Their real problem starts on the ground. Ever tried to connect form T1 to T2? You are probably faster connecting from CDG to ORY...
SPeaking of congestion, there is one airport I know that is heavily congested for about 5 hours of the day, otherwise it is almost empty. They have 4 Runways but also a complex airspace structure, and strange enough still people want to go there although it is a dreadful airport to arrive at and depart from. Which one? Ever been to JFK???
Well, hvaing said that, Unmanned, you have to understand that people WILL use the airport of THEIR conveninace,a dn they don't care a thing about a holding or two, what they care about is if they will land on time (as published), get to the city (that's what you have the blue line for) or to the connecting flight. The rest, the public does not give any second of thought. That is an academic question for the pilots and trhe airlines, nothing less nothing more.
So you can try to continue to bash LHR and BA as you like to do, but it will not change a thing.
Ohcirrej
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I suppose the reason for all the stacks that ya got going over there is because of all the one runwayed airstrips around the London area.
Not only do you fail to answer any question or even attempt to enter into intellignent discussion, you just keep sprouting crap. You wouldn't be a politician perchance? I must admit, that is some excellent trolling you're doing there.
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LACK OF AIRSPACE - in my opinion correct.
Look at the London area, you have Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton, and even Manston in a very small radius - look at the size of the UK compared to America.
When you compare areas like this against say DFW, I am sorry but it just doesn't compare. The airspace americans have to play with is VAST.
In my opinion you have to give credit to the London area controllers, who live up to their name as being amongst the best in the world.
Bring on the slating
Look at the London area, you have Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton, and even Manston in a very small radius - look at the size of the UK compared to America.
When you compare areas like this against say DFW, I am sorry but it just doesn't compare. The airspace americans have to play with is VAST.
In my opinion you have to give credit to the London area controllers, who live up to their name as being amongst the best in the world.
Bring on the slating
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What is the current saturation per hour number for LHR?
(max arrivals for each hour).
Surely the question should be 'Which airport has the worst Arrival delays aginst Pax numbers?'
***************************************************
Still waiting for an answer with regards to max arrivals/hr for LHR.
And data to prove that LHR is the 'worst' European hub for arrival delays.
Let's not muddy things up by mixing Pax #s and delays.
So a half hour hold in a stack prior to wheels at the gate is not classified as a delay?
In my book it sure is.
6 flts/dayX1/2 hour = 1095 hrs/year of additional expense.
(fuel, crew, AC hrs; etc)
The London area is a congested mess with 3 airports having one runway each and 1 airport having 2 runways all in close proximity and stacks of traffic waiting to be slotted in to land.
(max arrivals for each hour).
Surely the question should be 'Which airport has the worst Arrival delays aginst Pax numbers?'
***************************************************
Still waiting for an answer with regards to max arrivals/hr for LHR.
And data to prove that LHR is the 'worst' European hub for arrival delays.
Let's not muddy things up by mixing Pax #s and delays.
So a half hour hold in a stack prior to wheels at the gate is not classified as a delay?
In my book it sure is.
6 flts/dayX1/2 hour = 1095 hrs/year of additional expense.
(fuel, crew, AC hrs; etc)
The London area is a congested mess with 3 airports having one runway each and 1 airport having 2 runways all in close proximity and stacks of traffic waiting to be slotted in to land.
Ohcirrej
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Still waiting for an answer with regards to max arrivals/hr for LHR.
Unmanned, have you thought any more about what HD asked you reference your enlightened methods of improving the movement rate? Let's see......more runways ain't going to cut it.
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So what's the answer?
Fly from Europe instead? How, pray tell, does everyone get there? Fly, drive or walk? Get real.
Quote:The London area is a congested mess with 3 airports having one runway each and 1 airport having 2 runways all in close proximity and stacks of traffic waiting to be slotted in to land.
So what do we do close them down and start again?
I know lets build Maplin. It's in the sea won't affect anybody. Oh except the LTMA inbounds through Clacton and the Dover departures. But that doesn't matter because this is such a great idea.
Sarcasm machine off
Yes it's a mess but only because people want to fly. When they realise that there is such a waste then something may be done. At the moment the only way to stop so much holding in the air is to hold on the ground. It's called flow control and despite it being the biggest pain in the backside at times it does work (generally). I can assure you that no ATCO wants to hold anybody as the sooner you are out of their hair the quicker we can move onto something else and the potential airprox has gone away.
Phew!!
Fly from Europe instead? How, pray tell, does everyone get there? Fly, drive or walk? Get real.
Quote:The London area is a congested mess with 3 airports having one runway each and 1 airport having 2 runways all in close proximity and stacks of traffic waiting to be slotted in to land.
So what do we do close them down and start again?
I know lets build Maplin. It's in the sea won't affect anybody. Oh except the LTMA inbounds through Clacton and the Dover departures. But that doesn't matter because this is such a great idea.
Sarcasm machine off
Yes it's a mess but only because people want to fly. When they realise that there is such a waste then something may be done. At the moment the only way to stop so much holding in the air is to hold on the ground. It's called flow control and despite it being the biggest pain in the backside at times it does work (generally). I can assure you that no ATCO wants to hold anybody as the sooner you are out of their hair the quicker we can move onto something else and the potential airprox has gone away.
Phew!!
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Yes, and still everybody wants to go there...
A delay is anything that makes the aircraft land more than 15 minutes after the published arrival time. How you fly it and whether you make some extra turns or not does not matter at all.
Your book is irrelevant.
Relevant are:
- what the passenger wants (apparently they want to got to London)
- how the IATA definitions for delays and their identifications are (you can make up your own, but nobody will use them)
And you should get the London area correct. There are many more runways around. There are about 25 surfaces able to handle air traffic movements (meaning take off and landings) in the London area. I thought that you, as a 'professional London/BA/etc - basher' should know such details much better. Apparently you lack of knowledge...
A delay is anything that makes the aircraft land more than 15 minutes after the published arrival time. How you fly it and whether you make some extra turns or not does not matter at all.
Your book is irrelevant.
Relevant are:
- what the passenger wants (apparently they want to got to London)
- how the IATA definitions for delays and their identifications are (you can make up your own, but nobody will use them)
And you should get the London area correct. There are many more runways around. There are about 25 surfaces able to handle air traffic movements (meaning take off and landings) in the London area. I thought that you, as a 'professional London/BA/etc - basher' should know such details much better. Apparently you lack of knowledge...
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WindShear, look at the New York City area. Four very busy airports, EWR, JFK, LGA and TEB. Some have only one or two "real" runways. How much of the time do they have airborne holds? At least for domestic arrivals to EWR and LGA, my guess is not often. The reason is Ground Hold / Ground Delay at departiure airports. Planes are not allowed to take off for these destinations until there is a reasonable chance of landing without holding.
I'll agree that the arrivals from far overseas are harder to control to avoid airborne holding.
Look at these sites to get some idea of the US situation:
http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/usmap.jsp
http://www4.passur.com/lga.html you'll often see the arrivals queue stretch back to Philadelphia for LGA. The racetracks, if they exist, are more than 80 miles away. Note how gaps are left to fit in arrivals from very different directions.
Substitute EWR, JFK or TEB for LGA to highlight their traffic. The arrival queues for EWR and TEB turn and are mostly west of the airposts. Things sometimes seem less clear at JFK.
There are similar passur sites for LAX and some other Los Angeles area airports (SAN, etc).
As a naive outsider. I ask if Europe has the concept of Ground Holds. What about Canada, Mr. Jerricho in Icytoba?
I'll agree that the arrivals from far overseas are harder to control to avoid airborne holding.
Look at these sites to get some idea of the US situation:
http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/usmap.jsp
http://www4.passur.com/lga.html you'll often see the arrivals queue stretch back to Philadelphia for LGA. The racetracks, if they exist, are more than 80 miles away. Note how gaps are left to fit in arrivals from very different directions.
Substitute EWR, JFK or TEB for LGA to highlight their traffic. The arrival queues for EWR and TEB turn and are mostly west of the airposts. Things sometimes seem less clear at JFK.
There are similar passur sites for LAX and some other Los Angeles area airports (SAN, etc).
As a naive outsider. I ask if Europe has the concept of Ground Holds. What about Canada, Mr. Jerricho in Icytoba?
Last edited by seacue; 16th Feb 2005 at 20:27.
Ohcirrej
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I ask if Europe has the concept of Ground Holds
The unfortunate thing with Heathrow is that is can be ticking over quite nicely then, for whatever reason (FOD on runway causing a few go-arounds etc) can cause a blow out of holding out of nowhere.
You mention the New York airspace. From what I have seen and had explained to me, their traffic is streamed in trailmiles and miles away, and are run into rather long down-winds, rather than being spun around a hold (have I over-simplified this?). Once again, going back to the poor old London Terminal Airspace, you run out of room very quickly.
A Runyonesque Character
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*sigh* Mr Unhinged does go on a bit doesn't he?
There is a perfectly valid database of delays at European hubs published by the AEA, as it happens in their last report (Jul-Sep 04) LHR was bottom of the list for arrival delays on European flights.
A little bird tells me that AEA will publish their 2004 figures in a day or two and LHR will *not* be the worst in Europe for arrival delays - close but no cigar.
There is a perfectly valid database of delays at European hubs published by the AEA, as it happens in their last report (Jul-Sep 04) LHR was bottom of the list for arrival delays on European flights.
A little bird tells me that AEA will publish their 2004 figures in a day or two and LHR will *not* be the worst in Europe for arrival delays - close but no cigar.
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42 an hour is an average inbound flow rate.
I can remember going into Orlando on a Britannia jumpseat (before 9/11). We had four runway changes in the last 15 minutes, the last was at 3 miles because a departing a/c was lined up ahead of us. We had our first speed reduction and descent with 400 miles to go. If that method was adopted over here airspace capacity would halve, if not worse.
I can remember going into Orlando on a Britannia jumpseat (before 9/11). We had four runway changes in the last 15 minutes, the last was at 3 miles because a departing a/c was lined up ahead of us. We had our first speed reduction and descent with 400 miles to go. If that method was adopted over here airspace capacity would halve, if not worse.
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If the AEA 'delay arrival data' is based on the info that 5milebaby noted in his thread "I would like to remind all reading that a delay of 20 minutes or less is actually classed as NO DELAY". then the data is flawed.
Bottom line guys, your airports around London need a major updating with regards to laying more concrete.....more rwys. to alleviate that traffic maze.
I'd hate to have to fly my RC 114TC thru that airspace.
Bottom line guys, your airports around London need a major updating with regards to laying more concrete.....more rwys. to alleviate that traffic maze.
I'd hate to have to fly my RC 114TC thru that airspace.
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unmanned transport
Your obviously not from our shores and from what i can see, your just envious of the way our air traffic control system magnificently handles an increasingly difficult situation, handling traffic from 5 very busy airports (LHR, LGW, LTN, STN, LCY and also the up and coming MSE) in such a small area of space. You keep going on about DEN and DFW but the area they have to handle their traffic in is probably not much different to the area LATCC have to handle the traffic for 5 different and very busy airports! Well done to the guys in LATCC for their excellent work in whats probably a very difficult and extremely busy enviroment!
Your obviously not from our shores and from what i can see, your just envious of the way our air traffic control system magnificently handles an increasingly difficult situation, handling traffic from 5 very busy airports (LHR, LGW, LTN, STN, LCY and also the up and coming MSE) in such a small area of space. You keep going on about DEN and DFW but the area they have to handle their traffic in is probably not much different to the area LATCC have to handle the traffic for 5 different and very busy airports! Well done to the guys in LATCC for their excellent work in whats probably a very difficult and extremely busy enviroment!
Ohcirrej
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Bottom line guys, your airports around London need a major updating with regards to laying more concrete
Have you actually read ANY of what has been posted above. I really don't think so!!!