BY diversion from LBA. 11/2
BY diversion from LBA. 11/2
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BY upto their usual tricks allright ! Wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that BY base an aircraft at LBA between tues and fri - returning back to its base on fri evening ! Crew must have wanted to get out on the town. Sorry I couldnt help it but it does make you wonder as it was the only divert !
Talking of BY, I have had enough of them at LBA. Went to book a holiday at "thomson" and they were continually trying to push DSA rather than LBA. Listen BY/Thomson - "I AM NOT INTERESTED IN DSA - I WANT FLIGHTS FROM LBA". DSA is a waste of space and will just be a charter airport running on low cost, like the likes of coventry. I will NEVER book from DSA and would encourage most west yorks people not to either (vote with your feet). We want a proper airport with proper routes, LBA is getting there but needs more charter stuff and encourahgement / incentives to base.
So I promptly walked out and booked something from MAN with one of thomsons biggest rivals. I dont like going from MAN but I certainly wont be going to some tin-pot set up like DSA.
Talking of BY, I have had enough of them at LBA. Went to book a holiday at "thomson" and they were continually trying to push DSA rather than LBA. Listen BY/Thomson - "I AM NOT INTERESTED IN DSA - I WANT FLIGHTS FROM LBA". DSA is a waste of space and will just be a charter airport running on low cost, like the likes of coventry. I will NEVER book from DSA and would encourage most west yorks people not to either (vote with your feet). We want a proper airport with proper routes, LBA is getting there but needs more charter stuff and encourahgement / incentives to base.
So I promptly walked out and booked something from MAN with one of thomsons biggest rivals. I dont like going from MAN but I certainly wont be going to some tin-pot set up like DSA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: 6 miles 14
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rob a bit harsh on DSA really, it won't be a tin pot airport the terminal and car park facilities look very good. At least if you can't go from LBA which I agree is a disgrace you can still fly from Yorkshire rather than going acrross the dreadful 62. As for BY ,yes it stinks as both BMI and Jet2 got in after they had diverted. I'm sure the decision was easy, lets look after ourselves not the 200+ punters down the back who are paying our wages! This is not unusual for BY maybe they are only CAT1 or have different rules for LBA to all the other airlines but when I looked at the weather it was CAT 1 just! and wind was variable at 3 kts. Can't say what it was when they called up though as I looked after I had noticed the divert. They might have been light on holding fuel also. I know a BY FO and he would have pressed to get in so lets not tar all BY crews with this though history does not make them look good.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Leeds
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what I could tell the divert call was made somewhere over the Channel based purely on the LBA ATIS at the time. Call to Servisair Manchester shortly after announcing the divert due "LBA weather". No call to LBA ATC to check trends or to pick up feedback from all of the a/c who were getting in on 14 on CAT1. By the time the a/c was descending into MAN, LBA WX had improved sufficiently that RVRs were reported as 'greater than 1100m' down the full length and a landing Jet2 737 reported the lights at 300ft above the threshold.
One might well speculate whether the fact that the a/c normally positions back to MAN over the weekend and the fact the crew avoided an evening's HOTAC in Leeds had more to do with this than the weather. Whathever the reason, 233 passengers faced a late and lengthy trip back across the M62 last night.
682
One might well speculate whether the fact that the a/c normally positions back to MAN over the weekend and the fact the crew avoided an evening's HOTAC in Leeds had more to do with this than the weather. Whathever the reason, 233 passengers faced a late and lengthy trip back across the M62 last night.
682
I know what your saying about them being pushy!Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahh BY diverting to MAN from LBA........remember it well - see they are still at it.
When I used to work at LBA back in 93-95 and again in 98, they always used to do that at the slightest hint of bad wx, even when other airlines were getting in with no probs - most of the time BY would not even bother to come and have a look/try but would just go straight to MAN.
It was a bloody nightmare having to sort out coaches at the last minute and then re-unite pax and bags and trying to get the passengers and their bags on the same bus is not as easy as it sounds !!.
It was always us, the poor handling agents that get all the
from the pax too for something totally out of our control - not an airline rep to be seen at LBA back then.
When I used to work at LBA back in 93-95 and again in 98, they always used to do that at the slightest hint of bad wx, even when other airlines were getting in with no probs - most of the time BY would not even bother to come and have a look/try but would just go straight to MAN.
It was a bloody nightmare having to sort out coaches at the last minute and then re-unite pax and bags and trying to get the passengers and their bags on the same bus is not as easy as it sounds !!.
It was always us, the poor handling agents that get all the
from the pax too for something totally out of our control - not an airline rep to be seen at LBA back then.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Crufts
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
None of those posting on this thread so far list "Pilot" or anything like it in their profiles: In reality, some of you may be, but prefer discretion.
It is usually unwise to second guess decisions taken on a flightdeck by professionals when you were not there at the time and when you lack the specific training, incident details and situational awareness required for making informed comment.
There are any number of good reasons for a diversion, NONE of which anybody here is familiar with in this instance. To suggest that BY deliberately divert and thereby inconvenience customers is childish and reveals more about the lack of detailed industry knowledge of contributors than about the incident.
It is usually unwise to second guess decisions taken on a flightdeck by professionals when you were not there at the time and when you lack the specific training, incident details and situational awareness required for making informed comment.
There are any number of good reasons for a diversion, NONE of which anybody here is familiar with in this instance. To suggest that BY deliberately divert and thereby inconvenience customers is childish and reveals more about the lack of detailed industry knowledge of contributors than about the incident.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RobT100
I have a strong opinion as you do on this subject, but I think you are a little harsh on our Donny friends. DSA will have its own catchment area and it does not need to try catch any of the LBA punters to be a success. It is a little annoying (understatement) when your driving through Horsforth watching the aircraft fly overhead on their approach into Leeds whilst a bus passes you advertising DSA.
If you are reading Thomson boys and girls, I have just booked to go to on holiday with 'your' company this summer flying from LBA. This is costing over 2000 pounds for the group. Already I have been joking with my work collegues saying that i'm flying from Leeds and returning to Manchester. This really is not a laughing matter, if this actually happens and I find out that it was not justified my friends and I will never use your company again. What I cannot understand is that the customer will always be a companies best form of advertisement. People always tell family and friends of their experiences and people do take notice.
What is funny is that dispite the Thomsons over advertising, LBA will still manage to full that Boeing 767-200 come the start of May!!
If you are reading Thomson boys and girls, I have just booked to go to on holiday with 'your' company this summer flying from LBA. This is costing over 2000 pounds for the group. Already I have been joking with my work collegues saying that i'm flying from Leeds and returning to Manchester. This really is not a laughing matter, if this actually happens and I find out that it was not justified my friends and I will never use your company again. What I cannot understand is that the customer will always be a companies best form of advertisement. People always tell family and friends of their experiences and people do take notice.
What is funny is that dispite the Thomsons over advertising, LBA will still manage to full that Boeing 767-200 come the start of May!!
Last edited by Leodis; 14th Feb 2005 at 11:31.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
memories
and what is your professional or other qualification to make such a judgement?
This is not a one off, this is happening time and time again. I can remember one day in the autumn when conditions at Leeds were not exactly favorable. I was expecting to see some aircraft possibly divert. The wind was 250 gusting to 45 knots cross wind during the daytime period. The wind then started to abate, by the time the BY flight made its approach the wind had decreased to 260 15 knots with no gusts. The aircraft diverted to Manchester without making a second approach claiming the wind was too strong. It was the only diversion of the day. Someone from a handling agent said the pilot has had a telling off and he has been told he is to return the aircraft to Leeds with the passengers. This then happened.
During summer 2003 Mytravel based the same aircraft at Leeds and there were many occasions when their aircraft landed and the Thomson aircraft landing at the same time diverted in the same conditions.
On one occasion one passenger on returning to Leeds on a coach from Manchester said "after we had diverted to Manchester we landed on the second approach there because the weather was poor there too."
I don't care what anyone says but there is more to this that meets the eye. Not all the Thomson crews are involved, some are very pro LBA some hate the place. Some don't care either way but they live in Manchester!!!
20 years of local knowledge and the fact that other same alike equiptment can make a safe approach and landing in the same conditions.
Unless you have spoken the crew involved, or the company operations controller you do not know the full circumstances behind any decision to divert. Hearsay from
Someone from a handling agent
From what I could tell the divert call was made somewhere over the Channel based purely on the LBA ATIS at the time. Call to Servisair Manchester shortly after announcing the divert due "LBA weather".
YS
Last edited by Yellow Sun; 13th Feb 2005 at 16:25.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LBA BY diversions
Yellow sun,
I don't have to tell you who I am or what I do for a living and the only person sounding childish is you given that you show a complete inability to accept anyone elses opinion.
My opinion is based on factual comparisons with other like airlines.
To the LBA dedicated airlines; keep up the good work:-
BMI
Jet2.com
FlyBe
MyTravel
Eastern Airways
LTE
Air Europa
Spanair
Air Malta
Air Southwest
Ryanair
Among others.
YORKSHIRE the place to be is the city of Leeds.
I don't have to tell you who I am or what I do for a living and the only person sounding childish is you given that you show a complete inability to accept anyone elses opinion.
My opinion is based on factual comparisons with other like airlines.
To the LBA dedicated airlines; keep up the good work:-
BMI
Jet2.com
FlyBe
MyTravel
Eastern Airways
LTE
Air Europa
Spanair
Air Malta
Air Southwest
Ryanair
Among others.
YORKSHIRE
the place to be is the city of Leeds.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Crufts
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My opinion is based on factual comparisons with other like airlines
Let's try and keep this as simple as possible. No two approaches are identical. Aircraft weights and performance will vary amongst type, even though from the outside the aircraft may look identical to each other. Weather conditions will vary and may not match those reported by those on the ground. There are many variables, any of which render a judgement made by an unqualified person unwise.
There's an old saying about discretion being the better part of valour: Sometimes, a decision to divert due to weather (or other circumstances) may be the more sensible option, even though subsequent landings may give the appearance of the opposite!. The decision taken was the correct one at the time and under the circumstances.
I'll declare an interest, working as I do for BY, and have done so for 25 years now. During that time, I am unaware of any single instance when a diversion off LBA (or anywhere else) has been made for the absurd reasons claimed on a previous post. Thomson crews are neither pro, nor anti LBA - It is simply another place where we operate to, no more, no less: Doing so pays our salaries.
Brunel to Concorde
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virtute et Industria, et Sumorsaete Ealle
Posts: 2,283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dogs_ears_up
I have never worked in the aviation/travel industry and I often make this clear in my posts. I never presume to pontificate on any technical aviation situation, especially pilot or atco-related, because I am just not qualified and my opinion, if I was able to form one, would mean nothing.
That being the case I empathise entirely with the sentiments of your post, the thrust of which I have seen expressed many times in PPRuNe by professionals in exasperated response to amateurs' 'opinions'.
However, I have a rider. I often see posters, whose profile shows them to be aviation professionals, confidently express opinions, especially in Jet Blast, on matters, often legal or police procedures, on which they are equally ignorant but that does not stop them throwing in their three penorth. And their three penorth is usually as misconceived and plain wrong as the views of amateurs on aviation matters.
I have never worked in the aviation/travel industry and I often make this clear in my posts. I never presume to pontificate on any technical aviation situation, especially pilot or atco-related, because I am just not qualified and my opinion, if I was able to form one, would mean nothing.
That being the case I empathise entirely with the sentiments of your post, the thrust of which I have seen expressed many times in PPRuNe by professionals in exasperated response to amateurs' 'opinions'.
However, I have a rider. I often see posters, whose profile shows them to be aviation professionals, confidently express opinions, especially in Jet Blast, on matters, often legal or police procedures, on which they are equally ignorant but that does not stop them throwing in their three penorth. And their three penorth is usually as misconceived and plain wrong as the views of amateurs on aviation matters.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it interesting that here we have another post regards LBA and yet again someone can't resist some more bashing of DSA. I have no bias towards DSA but it's getting very boring. DSA will be a success, it's not a tin-pot airport(let's stick to the facts here); it has a brand new terminal if no-one noticed and hopefully will complement LBA not compete against it.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Crufts
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It gets worse!
Now you mention it, of course it's all coming back to me now. Of course we routinely divert because of the situation with HMC: MAN Customs are much more willing to turn a blind eye. We don't mind upsetting our customers and our German financiers over such an important matter - we're sure they'll understand.
We have crew based at LBA, but they are all planning to move to another base because of the previous difficulties with HM Customs, so this means that the diversion situation will ddoubtless become worse in the Summer when we close the base down due to lack of crew.
Just to add insult to injury, we are the only airline in the UK to employ crew that have transgressed HMC regulations - no other has been affected. How unlucky can you get?
Now you mention it, of course it's all coming back to me now. Of course we routinely divert because of the situation with HMC: MAN Customs are much more willing to turn a blind eye. We don't mind upsetting our customers and our German financiers over such an important matter - we're sure they'll understand.
We have crew based at LBA, but they are all planning to move to another base because of the previous difficulties with HM Customs, so this means that the diversion situation will ddoubtless become worse in the Summer when we close the base down due to lack of crew.
Just to add insult to injury, we are the only airline in the UK to employ crew that have transgressed HMC regulations - no other has been affected. How unlucky can you get?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dog_eat_ears
For a 'professional' man who is pilot, you have lost your temper rather quickly in this heated debate, I just hope your not on my flight when I go away in the summer with your company. If you choose to be perdantic thats upto you. Happy flying.
Cheers to good living and god bless!
Cheers to good living and god bless!
Last edited by Leodis; 14th Feb 2005 at 17:27.