Doncaster/Finningley (Merged)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: South of MAN, North of BHX, and well clear of Stoke ;-)
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In mild defence of 7006fan, it should be acknowledged that of the ten most recent Airproxes reported on the CAA website, 3 of them involve aircraft in or out of DSA.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...d=7&newstype=a
1. http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...etail&nid=1097
2. http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...etail&nid=1092
3. http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...etail&nid=1090
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...d=7&newstype=a
1. http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...etail&nid=1097
2. http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...etail&nid=1092
3. http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...etail&nid=1090
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: doncaster
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doncaster/finningley
It seems that DSA has a problem with light aircraft,just buzzing around Doncaster. As an amateur in aviation matters,it seems a bit silly to me that pilots of small a/c are not aware of the dangers. If not,I have to ask,WHY NOT.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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They generally are aware of the dangers but the controlled airspace does not exist yet! There is less and less airspace becoming available to the sport flyer and DSA isn't exactly super busy anway ,yet! Time will tell I fully expect to be pushed out of flying in the DSA area in the future as airspace is imposed around it. Whilst I am generally pro aviation I am becoming fed up with it's grass roots being erroded by the big boys nicking all the free airspace.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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doncaster/finningley
Hooded, Understand your problem and your enthusiasm for your hobby or sport,but regardless of the fact that finningley is still free air space,or whatever,I would imagine that even amateur flyers know where the flight paths are,and should use extreme caution.
When you have a/c carrying many passenergs,what you could see as interference with your sport,could be a huge disaster,costing many lives.
It should not need compulsion to avoid the air space around finningley,just plain common sense.
By 'big boys',do you mean commercial a/c.
When you have a/c carrying many passenergs,what you could see as interference with your sport,could be a huge disaster,costing many lives.
It should not need compulsion to avoid the air space around finningley,just plain common sense.
By 'big boys',do you mean commercial a/c.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I would not worry too much about CAS around DSA-it will be a long time before any application is considered, and even longer for them to jump through the appropiate hoops!
Join Date: Oct 2004
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doncaster/finningley
What happens in the meantime,almost professional. Do the small a/c and gliders,still go in the general area of moving commercial a/c.because there is no law against it. I'm not knocking the amateur flyers,but I just don't understand the logic.
The airport is there,and I guess most of you are pleased,and in spite of the fact that it is not busy yet,it seems common sense to me to avoid the possibility of a major disaster.
I guess inthe event of a disaster there would be the inquiry,and people would say 'who would have thought it'.
If something is obviously unsafe,surely we don't need a law to stop us doing it.
The airport is there,and I guess most of you are pleased,and in spite of the fact that it is not busy yet,it seems common sense to me to avoid the possibility of a major disaster.
I guess inthe event of a disaster there would be the inquiry,and people would say 'who would have thought it'.
If something is obviously unsafe,surely we don't need a law to stop us doing it.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Hampshire, UK
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Unfortunatley this is a common problem at practically any airport without CAS. Farnborough is a prime example, double figure movements an hour, all in the busiest airspace for light aircraft in the country. ATC do an admirable job here as I'm sure they do in many other airports where the same problem lies, but unless there is CAS surrounding the airport there is nothing anyone can do.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: N.E. Derbyshire, UK
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Terry -
As a private pilot flying out of Gamston I can assure you that we are very aware of the risks of a collision in uncontrolled airspace. Any collision would hurt us just as much as the passengers and crew of a 737 or similar.
There are reciprocal arrangements in place for light a/c operating out of Gamston to contact DSA on northerly or westerly headings as these potentially encroach on the descent patterns and approach paths for the commercial guys using DSA.
Doncaster Sheffield IFR traffic receives a Radar Advisory Service and all traffic will be vectored safely around light a/c known to DSA air traffic control. In any form of airspace, controlled or otherwise, there is a miniscule risk of collision - it is how that risk is managed that matters. At present there are insufficient aircraft movements at DSA to warrant controlled airspace (other than the ATZ around the airport itself, which requires permission from ATC to enter).
Exactly the same applies to other commercial airports in uncontrolled airspace (eg. Norwich and Humberside). I'm not aware (although stand to be corrected) of any collisions with commercial traffic at or near those airports - and they have both been operating for many years, so I would hardly say it is fair to call it 'obviously unsafe'.
The onus on VFR traffic (such as myself in a Cessna 172) is to keep the mark-one eyeball functioning and to be on a constant lookout. Together with the use of transponders (for those of us that have them) and something called 'good airmanship' we intend to preserve the safety of both ourselves as hobby pilots and those travelling to and from their holidays in the heavier metal. The last thing we need is to create unnecessary controlled airspace around every single airfield until such time as the number of a/c movements (and controller workload) warrants it.
Personally I'm delighted that DSA is operational and I hope it becomes a greater success in future years, but without the continued (relative) freedom of those of us at the grass-roots of flying, the very future of commercial aviation would be jeopardised...
As a private pilot flying out of Gamston I can assure you that we are very aware of the risks of a collision in uncontrolled airspace. Any collision would hurt us just as much as the passengers and crew of a 737 or similar.
There are reciprocal arrangements in place for light a/c operating out of Gamston to contact DSA on northerly or westerly headings as these potentially encroach on the descent patterns and approach paths for the commercial guys using DSA.
Doncaster Sheffield IFR traffic receives a Radar Advisory Service and all traffic will be vectored safely around light a/c known to DSA air traffic control. In any form of airspace, controlled or otherwise, there is a miniscule risk of collision - it is how that risk is managed that matters. At present there are insufficient aircraft movements at DSA to warrant controlled airspace (other than the ATZ around the airport itself, which requires permission from ATC to enter).
Exactly the same applies to other commercial airports in uncontrolled airspace (eg. Norwich and Humberside). I'm not aware (although stand to be corrected) of any collisions with commercial traffic at or near those airports - and they have both been operating for many years, so I would hardly say it is fair to call it 'obviously unsafe'.
The onus on VFR traffic (such as myself in a Cessna 172) is to keep the mark-one eyeball functioning and to be on a constant lookout. Together with the use of transponders (for those of us that have them) and something called 'good airmanship' we intend to preserve the safety of both ourselves as hobby pilots and those travelling to and from their holidays in the heavier metal. The last thing we need is to create unnecessary controlled airspace around every single airfield until such time as the number of a/c movements (and controller workload) warrants it.
Personally I'm delighted that DSA is operational and I hope it becomes a greater success in future years, but without the continued (relative) freedom of those of us at the grass-roots of flying, the very future of commercial aviation would be jeopardised...
Join Date: Sep 2004
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"but without the continued (relative) freedom of those of us at the grass-roots of flying, the very future of commercial aviation would be jeopardised"
Big al - I can see your concerns, but let's put this another way round. How many airports around the country would not be able to offer any form of activity if it wasn't for the commercial activity which kept the tills ringing?
You'll have to forgive me ignorance over the GA situation at DSA, but CVT for one is a location where the financial picture looked a lot more bleak before scheduled flights started.
I would expect that DSA offers many more flying opportunities beyond those which carry fare paying passengers - if not now, then in the not too distant future.
To flip the coin again, how do people get their initial interest in aviation - by flying on commercial planes. Look at all the opportunities which have been opened up from regional airports which didn't exist 10 years ago. This can only be a boost to those who enjoy aviation as a hobby in whatever form (let's not forget the spotters here too).
Big al - I can see your concerns, but let's put this another way round. How many airports around the country would not be able to offer any form of activity if it wasn't for the commercial activity which kept the tills ringing?
You'll have to forgive me ignorance over the GA situation at DSA, but CVT for one is a location where the financial picture looked a lot more bleak before scheduled flights started.
I would expect that DSA offers many more flying opportunities beyond those which carry fare paying passengers - if not now, then in the not too distant future.
To flip the coin again, how do people get their initial interest in aviation - by flying on commercial planes. Look at all the opportunities which have been opened up from regional airports which didn't exist 10 years ago. This can only be a boost to those who enjoy aviation as a hobby in whatever form (let's not forget the spotters here too).
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: N.E. Derbyshire, UK
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jabird -
Wholeheartedly agree. Commercial and private aviation are (to a degree) inter-dependent, as opposed to independent. One cannot exist without the other.
Undoubtedly a great many regional airports wouldn't exist without commercial activity, thus restricting us private pilots further. And on the flip side, without GA activity, many 'airfields' that have developed into regional 'airports' would probably have closed long ago.
My point is that we are already seeing some airports applying restrictive practices to GA by either increasing the charges or 'inviting' GA operators to move elsewhere - what we don't need is further (airspace) restrictions upon GA that could have long term implications for the wider aviation community.
As for DSA, I believe the GA community can live in close proximity with the airport in safety without the need for controlled airspace, until the number of movements at DSA are such that it warrants further restrictions. If there were airliners hurtling down the ILS at 90 second intervals as at LHR, clearly that would be a different set of circumstances. Until that happens, I have no reason to suspect that DSA traffic is at any greater risk that Humberside or Norwich.
Wholeheartedly agree. Commercial and private aviation are (to a degree) inter-dependent, as opposed to independent. One cannot exist without the other.
Undoubtedly a great many regional airports wouldn't exist without commercial activity, thus restricting us private pilots further. And on the flip side, without GA activity, many 'airfields' that have developed into regional 'airports' would probably have closed long ago.
My point is that we are already seeing some airports applying restrictive practices to GA by either increasing the charges or 'inviting' GA operators to move elsewhere - what we don't need is further (airspace) restrictions upon GA that could have long term implications for the wider aviation community.
As for DSA, I believe the GA community can live in close proximity with the airport in safety without the need for controlled airspace, until the number of movements at DSA are such that it warrants further restrictions. If there were airliners hurtling down the ILS at 90 second intervals as at LHR, clearly that would be a different set of circumstances. Until that happens, I have no reason to suspect that DSA traffic is at any greater risk that Humberside or Norwich.
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I posted this not so long ago on the Humberside thread after someone asked about DSA's radar situation.
'From what I understand regarding the radar the primary is provide by RAF Waddington and the secondary is provide by RAF Scampton. The problem is that at those ranges low cover (below 4000ft) can not be guareented. Eventually the radar service will be piped from RAF Waddington into Liverpool and controllers at Liverpool will provide the service. The problem is though is that Liverpool controllers operate within controlled airspace and Robin Hood airport is in uncontrolled airspace. Add to this the fact that Liverpool controllers will be unfamiliar with the area, with the large amount of military and general aviation traffic and the problem with radar coverage at low level, should make things interesting.'
This could explain the spate of recent Airproxes.
'From what I understand regarding the radar the primary is provide by RAF Waddington and the secondary is provide by RAF Scampton. The problem is that at those ranges low cover (below 4000ft) can not be guareented. Eventually the radar service will be piped from RAF Waddington into Liverpool and controllers at Liverpool will provide the service. The problem is though is that Liverpool controllers operate within controlled airspace and Robin Hood airport is in uncontrolled airspace. Add to this the fact that Liverpool controllers will be unfamiliar with the area, with the large amount of military and general aviation traffic and the problem with radar coverage at low level, should make things interesting.'
This could explain the spate of recent Airproxes.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Fred Olsen cruises will start using DSA in 2007. There is one departure listed for 4th January 2007 to Barbados.
Also has anyone heard anything more about Ryanair basing 4 planes at DSA next year?
Also has anyone heard anything more about Ryanair basing 4 planes at DSA next year?
Join Date: Apr 2000
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problem is that at those ranges low cover (below 4000ft) can not be guareented
Pie
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The problem is though is that Liverpool controllers operate within controlled airspace and Robin Hood airport is in uncontrolled airspace. Add to this the fact that Liverpool controllers will be unfamiliar with the area, with the large amount of military and general aviation traffic and the problem with radar coverage at low level, should make things interesting.'
Edited for abuse. Use this as a warning!
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Pie Man, the problem with the radar is that there are holes in the bottom of the lobe at those ranges. Waddington and Scampton probably can see below 4000ft but the problem is that this can not be guaranteed. The main problem is with non squawking traffic climbing out of the numerous small airstrips around DSA especially Sandtoft as it is some 10nm further north. This traffic pops up as the B737 is turning onto the ILS, a particularly vulnerable phase of flight.
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onion,
Could not agree more, I wonder in these day's of 'Safety Management' (showing my age a bit there) was a Safety Case produced about placing another airfield capable of operating large passenger aircraft in the already crowded skys of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire without the protection of regulated airspace. If one was done they certainly did not canvas the veiws of those already operating in the area.
Pie
Could not agree more, I wonder in these day's of 'Safety Management' (showing my age a bit there) was a Safety Case produced about placing another airfield capable of operating large passenger aircraft in the already crowded skys of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire without the protection of regulated airspace. If one was done they certainly did not canvas the veiws of those already operating in the area.
Pie
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Hot on the heels of the Fred Olsen Barbados cruise announcement Princess cruises have announced the following cruise flights from the airport;
13th January 2007 - Barbados
17th February 2007 - Fort Lauderdale
As of now no airlines have been announced for the flights.
Great news for the airport!
13th January 2007 - Barbados
17th February 2007 - Fort Lauderdale
As of now no airlines have been announced for the flights.
Great news for the airport!
Join Date: Oct 2004
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doncaster finningley
big.al - always give way to someone better qualified than I. We had another airprox recently,a helicopter I understand.
Do all private planes carry sufficient nav aids,as I understand you and most of your colleagues do.
Incidentally I wish you all the best with your flying,and long may it continue.
Do all private planes carry sufficient nav aids,as I understand you and most of your colleagues do.
Incidentally I wish you all the best with your flying,and long may it continue.