LEEDS
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FCA
It would be excellent news if true, like the other posts I think BombardierCR7 is right to ask questions.
I was one of the 'unlucky' ones to have flown out to GRO before FCA decided to pull the plug. The De Mar's really are the pits. They're a filthy scruffy dirty whole that I wouldn't wish anyone upon. I could fully understand why FCA pulled out last summer and I cannot see a quick return for them.
On the otherhand if it is correct that FCA are to return, I have to agree with HOODED on his comments about JET2. I have said in other posts before, if the IT companys don't wake up to the regional bases of the LOCOs then they are doomed!
Go on First Choice!
I was one of the 'unlucky' ones to have flown out to GRO before FCA decided to pull the plug. The De Mar's really are the pits. They're a filthy scruffy dirty whole that I wouldn't wish anyone upon. I could fully understand why FCA pulled out last summer and I cannot see a quick return for them.
On the otherhand if it is correct that FCA are to return, I have to agree with HOODED on his comments about JET2. I have said in other posts before, if the IT companys don't wake up to the regional bases of the LOCOs then they are doomed!
Go on First Choice!
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FCA will never go it alone into Leeds. Best chance for another based charter aircraft is something led by Thomas Cook. They have good retail coverage in West & North Yorks, bigger in fact than their coverage in the North East. A based 320 with maybe another operator (Excel?) bought into a seat allocation is the best hope.
FCA do carry a lot of Yorks customer thru MAN, but the last I heard, they had no intention of serving it locally.
loco
FCA do carry a lot of Yorks customer thru MAN, but the last I heard, they had no intention of serving it locally.
loco
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Poor Runway Condition
On this thread I have read (several times) about the need to resurface the main runway. Is that ever likely to happen? How much would it cost? Would the new surface be concrete? How long could the runway be kept in use without resurfacing?
Would it ever be feasible to build a new Leeds Bradford Airport? I ask this because I read on another thread (DSA) that there was some talk of a new airport being situated around Pudsey.
Just curious.
Would it ever be feasible to build a new Leeds Bradford Airport? I ask this because I read on another thread (DSA) that there was some talk of a new airport being situated around Pudsey.
Just curious.
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Someone's pulling your leg Mister Monty.
Apart from the economic lunacy of building a new airport in a well served area I hail from Pudsey which is, should you visit it, is sited on top of a hill even less topographically favourable than Yeadon.
Mind you, it is Yorkshire and sometime in the 1960s the great and the good did decide to develop a site that sits on top of a hill, surrounded by hills, often fogbound, with a runway that runs at right angles to prevailing winds and with very poor surface access and limited room for expansion.
How did that happen then? Was that Bradford CC not wishing for a site on the vale of York (flat, good access by all modes, bags of space etc)?
Apart from the economic lunacy of building a new airport in a well served area I hail from Pudsey which is, should you visit it, is sited on top of a hill even less topographically favourable than Yeadon.
Mind you, it is Yorkshire and sometime in the 1960s the great and the good did decide to develop a site that sits on top of a hill, surrounded by hills, often fogbound, with a runway that runs at right angles to prevailing winds and with very poor surface access and limited room for expansion.
How did that happen then? Was that Bradford CC not wishing for a site on the vale of York (flat, good access by all modes, bags of space etc)?
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Leeds Bradford relocate?
Mister Monty,
That is a good question Mister Monty and it has been asked before. The question was asked when the airport authority tried to obtain 24 hour availability. RAF airfielids like York Chirch Fenton had been suggested on more that one occasion. It quite simply isn't that easy. The Pudsey area would be ideal but the area is more hilly than Yeadon. The area east of Leeds is flat, perfect one might say. The problem being is, firstly The Chirch Fenton airfield is a half an hour drive from East Leeds, new motorways conections would need constructing. Secondly, the area is awash with electric cables. Also not to forget, the airport is Leeds BRADFORD airport. In fact, if you take a look at Leeds Bradfords current location, it probably couldn't be better placed, in respects of closeness to two large cities. The problems have always been with it's so called 'hill top' position, lack of a motorway link road, a relatively short runway of 2250m' and the lack of investment for the long term. The airport is made up of add ons. Given the money, Leeds Bradford International could overcome many of its problems. I think that the airport management have realised this because the latest expansions to the terminal to facilitate the extra flights have been constructed out of cabins. Next year the terminal will reach its capacity, I fully expect a major development to take place to facilitate further growth and the airport is in the process of doubling its electricity and water supply.
That is a good question Mister Monty and it has been asked before. The question was asked when the airport authority tried to obtain 24 hour availability. RAF airfielids like York Chirch Fenton had been suggested on more that one occasion. It quite simply isn't that easy. The Pudsey area would be ideal but the area is more hilly than Yeadon. The area east of Leeds is flat, perfect one might say. The problem being is, firstly The Chirch Fenton airfield is a half an hour drive from East Leeds, new motorways conections would need constructing. Secondly, the area is awash with electric cables. Also not to forget, the airport is Leeds BRADFORD airport. In fact, if you take a look at Leeds Bradfords current location, it probably couldn't be better placed, in respects of closeness to two large cities. The problems have always been with it's so called 'hill top' position, lack of a motorway link road, a relatively short runway of 2250m' and the lack of investment for the long term. The airport is made up of add ons. Given the money, Leeds Bradford International could overcome many of its problems. I think that the airport management have realised this because the latest expansions to the terminal to facilitate the extra flights have been constructed out of cabins. Next year the terminal will reach its capacity, I fully expect a major development to take place to facilitate further growth and the airport is in the process of doubling its electricity and water supply.
Last edited by Leodis; 13th Aug 2005 at 10:21.
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A new runway?
Gentlemen, thank you.
I can see that relocation is not really an option, given what's already been invested in the current site. But how about this.....
Given the issue with the prevailing winds and also the state of the main runway, would it not be an option to lay a new runway? I recall from my visits there as a boy, that there was an East/West runway and also a North/South runway. Could either of these be developed?
I would guess from reading other posts that ground transport links would be more pressing than any runway improvements?
I'm still interested to know how much life the present runway surface has in it, if anyone would care to hazard a guess.
Thanks.
I can see that relocation is not really an option, given what's already been invested in the current site. But how about this.....
Given the issue with the prevailing winds and also the state of the main runway, would it not be an option to lay a new runway? I recall from my visits there as a boy, that there was an East/West runway and also a North/South runway. Could either of these be developed?
I would guess from reading other posts that ground transport links would be more pressing than any runway improvements?
I'm still interested to know how much life the present runway surface has in it, if anyone would care to hazard a guess.
Thanks.
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Mister Monty,
You are correct in thinking that there were two cross runways.
The one North/South is used as a taxiway, this former runway also has terain to its northern side so it wouldn't be the best option for any new runway. The other as you mentioned 27/09 could have been the best option if the total planning of the airfield was differant in the 60's. The reasonably large apron is at the main terminal side of the airfield. Extensions to the apron were made during the 80's and 90's towards the east end of runway 27, where the apron ends today. The need for additional parking space at the airport has led to the planning of a new apron extension taking up the old runway of 27/09. Although adding a possible 10 new parking stands, it removes the possibility of any extension to that runway.
On my last visit to the runway on foot, I feel the serface is not as bad as it is made out to be. There are areas that have had emergency repairs, but the serface is on the whole not too bad. There is a build up of rubber, but this is removable. On the question of how long could it last? I understand that the runway can recieve continual repairs, but I imagin there will come a time when there becomes a need to fully re clad the runway.
Leeds Bradford is not the only airport in the world with a concrete runway. It would be interesting to know how the up keep of concrete runways is maintained at other airports?
You are correct in thinking that there were two cross runways.
The one North/South is used as a taxiway, this former runway also has terain to its northern side so it wouldn't be the best option for any new runway. The other as you mentioned 27/09 could have been the best option if the total planning of the airfield was differant in the 60's. The reasonably large apron is at the main terminal side of the airfield. Extensions to the apron were made during the 80's and 90's towards the east end of runway 27, where the apron ends today. The need for additional parking space at the airport has led to the planning of a new apron extension taking up the old runway of 27/09. Although adding a possible 10 new parking stands, it removes the possibility of any extension to that runway.
On my last visit to the runway on foot, I feel the serface is not as bad as it is made out to be. There are areas that have had emergency repairs, but the serface is on the whole not too bad. There is a build up of rubber, but this is removable. On the question of how long could it last? I understand that the runway can recieve continual repairs, but I imagin there will come a time when there becomes a need to fully re clad the runway.
Leeds Bradford is not the only airport in the world with a concrete runway. It would be interesting to know how the up keep of concrete runways is maintained at other airports?
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Leodis, Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I really appreciate it.
What then of extending the main runway? I understand that there is provision for extending 14/32 by 300m. Will this really make a significant difference? 300m doesn’t seem to be a great deal of extra runway. To which end will the 300m be added? And in what way will it make a difference?
If the 300m were added to the 32 end, will this effectively bring the aiming point back to the existing 32 threshold?
I have some fond memories of LBA. I used to enjoy standing at the end of runway 15 as it was in the early 80’s, watching the 737 200s cross the boundary fence. On one occasion I saw the landing gear of a 737 brush the top of a lamp post.
Landing at LBA in those days was a REAL thrill as a passenger. I imagine it was even more so for the pilots!
What then of extending the main runway? I understand that there is provision for extending 14/32 by 300m. Will this really make a significant difference? 300m doesn’t seem to be a great deal of extra runway. To which end will the 300m be added? And in what way will it make a difference?
If the 300m were added to the 32 end, will this effectively bring the aiming point back to the existing 32 threshold?
I have some fond memories of LBA. I used to enjoy standing at the end of runway 15 as it was in the early 80’s, watching the 737 200s cross the boundary fence. On one occasion I saw the landing gear of a 737 brush the top of a lamp post.
Landing at LBA in those days was a REAL thrill as a passenger. I imagine it was even more so for the pilots!
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If a 300m extension was planned it would be best put in at the start of 32. This would allow the threshold to be brought back closer to the old end of the runway. The threshold was displaced by around 1100ft when the runway was extended in the 80s. The requirement for an undershoot area still stands so a 300m move back due to 300m more undershoot available would give a LDA on 32 of around 2200m. The added bonus would be better TODA/TORA on both 32 and 14 and better LDA on 14 which is a bit of a problem(L1011/A320) due to the high ground on approach.
Extending at the other end will not help 14 LDA one bit as it would be sterile undershoot (there's loads already) and also wouldn't help 32 much for TODA due again to the high ground on climb out. The only real bonus on this end is extra LDA/ASDA on 32.
The ideal situation, and space is a problem for any more than 300m, is the extension of the runway at the 32 start end up to the Scotland Lane houses (built incidently after the airport was operating jets). Thus LBA would have a runway of 2550m (Same length as Birmingham) with a TODA on 14/31 of roughly 2550m and a LDA on 32 of about 2200m and on 14 of 2100m, this however would be the ASDA too. 32 has an extra soft overrun built as part of the 80s extension.
Hope this helps.
Extending at the other end will not help 14 LDA one bit as it would be sterile undershoot (there's loads already) and also wouldn't help 32 much for TODA due again to the high ground on climb out. The only real bonus on this end is extra LDA/ASDA on 32.
The ideal situation, and space is a problem for any more than 300m, is the extension of the runway at the 32 start end up to the Scotland Lane houses (built incidently after the airport was operating jets). Thus LBA would have a runway of 2550m (Same length as Birmingham) with a TODA on 14/31 of roughly 2550m and a LDA on 32 of about 2200m and on 14 of 2100m, this however would be the ASDA too. 32 has an extra soft overrun built as part of the 80s extension.
Hope this helps.
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In addition to Hooded's well-reasoned comments, the benefits of an extension to the 32 threshold end would be that the TDZ would be on the flat....beneficial for CatIII approaches.
At present the TDZ coinicides with the famous slope in the runway which hand flying pilots will know well. Autolands are complicated by this slope to the point that Boeing products and particularly the 737-300 are able to make full use of the Cat III facility. Most Airlines flying into LBA with Airbuses don't perform Cat IIIs and Fokker operators don't go beyond Cat II with RVRs of 300m. It is my belief that work at the 32 end would improve this situation too!
Let's hope this gets sorted out in the next few years!
At present the TDZ coinicides with the famous slope in the runway which hand flying pilots will know well. Autolands are complicated by this slope to the point that Boeing products and particularly the 737-300 are able to make full use of the Cat III facility. Most Airlines flying into LBA with Airbuses don't perform Cat IIIs and Fokker operators don't go beyond Cat II with RVRs of 300m. It is my belief that work at the 32 end would improve this situation too!
Let's hope this gets sorted out in the next few years!
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Hooded & 14 Loop
Spot on
Another advantage of extending at the 32 end is that the noise footprint would move back over the climb out by 300 m or a lower thrust rating could be used, which would achieve the same objective. Like wise more takeoffs could use 32 in light winds due to improved obstacle clearence.
The surface of 32/14 will easily last another decade, it is in good condition, it just apperas rough compared with tarmac runways at other airports, but is no worse than driving on a concrete road surface, say the A19 near Thirsk.
Taxy way Delta is another matter and has some deep hollows in it, it can't take the 75/76 which would have been a problem for Jet2 and that why its getting rebuilt (not relaid) in October. This work depending on weather will last at least 3 months so lets hope for lots of S/E winds other wise it will be lots of delays in the same way that LVP screws things up on 32
Burt
Another advantage of extending at the 32 end is that the noise footprint would move back over the climb out by 300 m or a lower thrust rating could be used, which would achieve the same objective. Like wise more takeoffs could use 32 in light winds due to improved obstacle clearence.
The surface of 32/14 will easily last another decade, it is in good condition, it just apperas rough compared with tarmac runways at other airports, but is no worse than driving on a concrete road surface, say the A19 near Thirsk.
Taxy way Delta is another matter and has some deep hollows in it, it can't take the 75/76 which would have been a problem for Jet2 and that why its getting rebuilt (not relaid) in October. This work depending on weather will last at least 3 months so lets hope for lots of S/E winds other wise it will be lots of delays in the same way that LVP screws things up on 32
Burt
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HOODED / 14 loop / INKJET
Thank you.
A couple more things... If you can tolerate my simplistic questions just a little longer?
In your opinion what would be the top 5 improvements required (as opposed to desired) to see a very rapid increase in passengers through LBA?
To what degree will expansion at Leeds be limited by the land available?
Thanks MM
Thank you.
A couple more things... If you can tolerate my simplistic questions just a little longer?
In your opinion what would be the top 5 improvements required (as opposed to desired) to see a very rapid increase in passengers through LBA?
To what degree will expansion at Leeds be limited by the land available?
Thanks MM
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Summer 2006...any change???
Most of the tour companies 2nd editions are out now but i can't see any extra flights from LBA at all. Humberside (AT LAST) has a fantastic range of detinations in the TC brochure (FAO,CFU,HER,LCA,PFO,FUE,LPA,ACE,PMI,RHO,TFS,AYT,BJV,DLM,ZTH ) LBA has just 6 (FAO,FUE,ACE,PMI,TFS,DLM). At the moment i can only count 22 charter destinations from LBA next Summer (only 1 to Greece...AGAIN)
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Mister Monty,
It is difficult to quantify just exactly how big LBA can get, given the availability of improved road links to the airport.
Putting costs aside
There is the space for a new terminal and multi storey carpark in the area of the long-stay car park. The newest part of the apron could have a full length peer with upto 16 airbridges. There is enough room for the previously mentioned 300m runway extension towards the S/E end of the main runway and a full length taxiway.
I would say that it would not be unreasonable to suggest that LBA could handle 10 million passengers given the resources. On the downside, I would imagine LBA would have little scope to handle more than around 12 million passengers with the land available.
Cheers
It is difficult to quantify just exactly how big LBA can get, given the availability of improved road links to the airport.
Putting costs aside
There is the space for a new terminal and multi storey carpark in the area of the long-stay car park. The newest part of the apron could have a full length peer with upto 16 airbridges. There is enough room for the previously mentioned 300m runway extension towards the S/E end of the main runway and a full length taxiway.
I would say that it would not be unreasonable to suggest that LBA could handle 10 million passengers given the resources. On the downside, I would imagine LBA would have little scope to handle more than around 12 million passengers with the land available.
Cheers
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hi
New summer 2006 flights to Greece from LBA to Rhodes & Heraklion by Thomas Cook & Sunset Holidays on sale at www.sundeal.co.uk
flights as follows
Heraklion, Tuesdays =
DEPARTS LBA 14:15 AEU931
ARRIVES LBA 23:45 AEU932
Rhodes, Wednesdays =
DEPARTS LBA 08:00 AEU933
ARRIVES LBA 17:40 AEU934
Hope this helps
New summer 2006 flights to Greece from LBA to Rhodes & Heraklion by Thomas Cook & Sunset Holidays on sale at www.sundeal.co.uk
flights as follows
Heraklion, Tuesdays =
DEPARTS LBA 14:15 AEU931
ARRIVES LBA 23:45 AEU932
Rhodes, Wednesdays =
DEPARTS LBA 08:00 AEU933
ARRIVES LBA 17:40 AEU934
Hope this helps
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Summer 2006 programme so far for LBA
Reus 05:20 11:35 B737-700 Astraeus
Palma 07:05 13:10 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Dalaman 10:30 09:30 B737-800 Sun Express
Funchal 12:50 23:55 B737-700 Astraeus (Via Cardiff)
Paphos 14:50 01:05 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Bourgas 19:10 18:10 A320 Balkan
Tuesday -
Alicante 06:15 13:05 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Palma 07:00 13:05 B737-700 Astraeus
Heraklion 14:15 - 23:45 B737-700 Astraeus
Tenerife 14:40 00:25 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Malta 17:50 17:00 A320 Air Malta
Wednesday-
Rhodes 08:00 17:40 B737-700 Astreaus
Mahon 07:30 13:40 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Fuertevenura 13:30 12:30 A320 LTE
Varna 15:10 23:20 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Thursday -
Palma 07:30 21:20 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Faro 08:00 22:40 B737-700 Astraeus
Arrecife 13:10 12:00 A320 LTE
Faro 14:20 13:15 A320 First Choice
Friday -
Ibiza 05:30 11:30 B737-700 Astraeus
Corfu 07:00 14:40 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Dalaman 10:25 09:30 B737-800 Pegasus
Tenerife 13:00 12:00 B737-800 Air Europa
Mahon 13:00 19:10 B737-700 Astraeus
Dalaman 16:10 01:45 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Tenerife 20:10 04:45 B737-700 Astraeus
Saturday -
Verona 06:15 11:20 B737-700 Astraeus
Reus 06:50 12:20 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Alicante 12:25 18:55 B737-700 Astraeus
Malaga 13:50 20:50 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Palma 15:50 14:40 A320 MyTravel
Palma 15:45 14:50 B737-800 Air Europa
Innsbruck 19:10 18:30 CRJ50 Austrian
Las Palmas 20:15 06:00 B737-700 Astraeus
Ibiza 22:25 04:40 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Sunday -
Palma 07:05 13:10 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Malaga 08:00 14:50 B737-700 Astraeus
Malta 13:30 12:30 MD90 BritishJet
Bodrum 14:50 00:45 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Larnaca 16:05 02:45 B737-700 Astraeus
Varna 19:30 18:30 A320 Balkan
Reus 05:20 11:35 B737-700 Astraeus
Palma 07:05 13:10 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Dalaman 10:30 09:30 B737-800 Sun Express
Funchal 12:50 23:55 B737-700 Astraeus (Via Cardiff)
Paphos 14:50 01:05 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Bourgas 19:10 18:10 A320 Balkan
Tuesday -
Alicante 06:15 13:05 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Palma 07:00 13:05 B737-700 Astraeus
Heraklion 14:15 - 23:45 B737-700 Astraeus
Tenerife 14:40 00:25 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Malta 17:50 17:00 A320 Air Malta
Wednesday-
Rhodes 08:00 17:40 B737-700 Astreaus
Mahon 07:30 13:40 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Fuertevenura 13:30 12:30 A320 LTE
Varna 15:10 23:20 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Thursday -
Palma 07:30 21:20 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Faro 08:00 22:40 B737-700 Astraeus
Arrecife 13:10 12:00 A320 LTE
Faro 14:20 13:15 A320 First Choice
Friday -
Ibiza 05:30 11:30 B737-700 Astraeus
Corfu 07:00 14:40 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Dalaman 10:25 09:30 B737-800 Pegasus
Tenerife 13:00 12:00 B737-800 Air Europa
Mahon 13:00 19:10 B737-700 Astraeus
Dalaman 16:10 01:45 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Tenerife 20:10 04:45 B737-700 Astraeus
Saturday -
Verona 06:15 11:20 B737-700 Astraeus
Reus 06:50 12:20 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Alicante 12:25 18:55 B737-700 Astraeus
Malaga 13:50 20:50 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Palma 15:50 14:40 A320 MyTravel
Palma 15:45 14:50 B737-800 Air Europa
Innsbruck 19:10 18:30 CRJ50 Austrian
Las Palmas 20:15 06:00 B737-700 Astraeus
Ibiza 22:25 04:40 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Sunday -
Palma 07:05 13:10 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Malaga 08:00 14:50 B737-700 Astraeus
Malta 13:30 12:30 MD90 BritishJet
Bodrum 14:50 00:45 B757-200 Thomsonfly
Larnaca 16:05 02:45 B737-700 Astraeus
Varna 19:30 18:30 A320 Balkan
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WOW...On sale now aswell! Shame they missed the 2nd editions though. Wonder when they will appear on the LBIA charter list???
I also see that the FNC charters will run in the Winter from 20th Feb 2006. Not sure if they are via CWL in the Winter.
I also see that the FNC charters will run in the Winter from 20th Feb 2006. Not sure if they are via CWL in the Winter.
Last edited by SASfox; 15th Aug 2005 at 20:10.
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I know we have always moaned about the LBA charter programme, but it looks so much better next year!
Additions - Varna (With Thomson), Palma (An extra weekly flight with Thomson), Bodrum (New Destination), Paphos (New Destination), Rhodes (New) and Heraklion. Also the rumours about ZTH and SSH.
Losses - Zakynthos (Flying LBA-ZTH next Monday, will have to make the most of it!), and the Futura flight on a Saturday (New TOM flight more than makes up for that).
Also consider the Verona flight will be operated by a 737 all summer, the Funchal will be going most of the year.
On the scheduled side, a full year of Swefly, Jet2 757s flying to TFS and who knows where else, as well as any other expansion, 2006 looking like a great year!
Additions - Varna (With Thomson), Palma (An extra weekly flight with Thomson), Bodrum (New Destination), Paphos (New Destination), Rhodes (New) and Heraklion. Also the rumours about ZTH and SSH.
Losses - Zakynthos (Flying LBA-ZTH next Monday, will have to make the most of it!), and the Futura flight on a Saturday (New TOM flight more than makes up for that).
Also consider the Verona flight will be operated by a 737 all summer, the Funchal will be going most of the year.
On the scheduled side, a full year of Swefly, Jet2 757s flying to TFS and who knows where else, as well as any other expansion, 2006 looking like a great year!
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Leodis,
Thanks.
That's cleared quite a lot up for me.
Basically, there's massive potential there. It just needs to be realised.
One gets the feeling that the 'big time' could be just around the corner.
I hope so.
Regards
Monty.
Thanks.
That's cleared quite a lot up for me.
Basically, there's massive potential there. It just needs to be realised.
One gets the feeling that the 'big time' could be just around the corner.
I hope so.
Regards
Monty.