stewardess left behind PMI
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stewardess left behind PMI
I recently heard about a Monarch stewardess going over to the terminal in PMI but didn't make it back in time and the aircraft departed without her!!! She arrived only 5-10 mins late.
What does everyone think about this? Would your airline do the same? Any Flight crew care to comment on what they would have done if they had been in the MON crew's shoes!
She was left to get home herself, ( I think another carrier took her home)
Personally I think it was a bit nasty to just abandon her. I feel that they should have waited for her and then reprimanded her etc given disciplinary if necessary!
What does everyone think about this? Would your airline do the same? Any Flight crew care to comment on what they would have done if they had been in the MON crew's shoes!
She was left to get home herself, ( I think another carrier took her home)
Personally I think it was a bit nasty to just abandon her. I feel that they should have waited for her and then reprimanded her etc given disciplinary if necessary!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: in a tin container
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well, where were the other crew members? How did they get their checks etc if a crew member was not there ? Did they go on purpose? What role was she playing on board.....did she not have a brief to do/ galley to tidy/ toilet to dress ??? What about the head count......surely they make sure that crew are there....
Dunno if I believe this one..............
Dunno if I believe this one..............
Join Date: May 2004
Location: In the Midlands
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like a non-smoking Captain who probably wasn't impressed with a crew member wanting to do a ciggie run over to the terminal to me. I bet they left her behind on purpose!
We used to have the same thing threatened to us at AMM, even though we were usually getting the flight deck orders too! I found it always help to get the dispatcher to take you in their car, much quicker than the pax bus. Its not nice thing to do is it.
TDB x
We used to have the same thing threatened to us at AMM, even though we were usually getting the flight deck orders too! I found it always help to get the dispatcher to take you in their car, much quicker than the pax bus. Its not nice thing to do is it.
TDB x
Can't see the problem or dilema here?
If a crew member goes into the terminal with instructions to be back at a particular time, then why shouldnt the aircraft depart without them when said time comes and goes?
I presume the crew member didnt make any contact with the gate/handling agent to advise of their late arrival - use their mobile phone or even walk up to someone in terminal and say 'help'?
Jet A-1 : 'NEVER' is a long time - how long would you actually leave it before deciding to get on with the job in hand, or would you really wait ad infinitum?
Lets face it, the idea is to turn the aircraft, shopping is a bonus!
If a crew member goes into the terminal with instructions to be back at a particular time, then why shouldnt the aircraft depart without them when said time comes and goes?
I presume the crew member didnt make any contact with the gate/handling agent to advise of their late arrival - use their mobile phone or even walk up to someone in terminal and say 'help'?
Jet A-1 : 'NEVER' is a long time - how long would you actually leave it before deciding to get on with the job in hand, or would you really wait ad infinitum?
Lets face it, the idea is to turn the aircraft, shopping is a bonus!
Pilot of the Airwaves
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Close to the Med
Age: 74
Posts: 812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem with PMI these days is the length of time from gate to the hub of the terminal. I seem to recall that there is a sign giving times to get to the various gates at check in. 20 mins seems to ring a bell for the furthest gates.......and they ain't joking!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From a slightly different angle, what about the Captain's 'Duty of Care'?
Young person, foreign country, member of a crew and presumably she DID have permission to go in the first place?
If you are sitting on the possibility of a three hour slot delay it could be a difficult call methinks!
Young person, foreign country, member of a crew and presumably she DID have permission to go in the first place?
If you are sitting on the possibility of a three hour slot delay it could be a difficult call methinks!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Crufts
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just some background FYI:-
It is a well established fact with charter crews that if you visit the terminal to shop, you must get back in good time, or you may be left behind. There is no surprise that this has happened, everybody knows the score!
It is possible that the CC involved will now face disciplinary action from her employer - for failing to make herself available for a duty. This could theoretically result in dismissal.
It is well known that PMi is a large an busy airport where access to the aircraft is controlled and sometimes difficult - in short, it is one of the sillier places to go shopping!
Provided the legal number of crew are retained on board, pax may be boarded and the flight departed correctly, as was obviously the case here.
Waiting, even 5 minutes, could jeopardise the slot and incur a multi-hour delay (mentioned previously). This would affect not only pax on that partciular flight, but also pax on all subsequent rotations of that aircraft on that day.
If a person is old enough to initiate and manage an evacuation, then they are also old enough to get themselves back to the aircraft in time, or back to the UK from Pmi. If you don't like that risk, then don't do the shopping!
This person has my sympathy, because they're probably feeling extremely uncomfortable at the moment, but it was their own stupid fault - all this to save pennies on some fags/perfume/booze or whatever. The operation comes first - end of story - and we all know that!
It is a well established fact with charter crews that if you visit the terminal to shop, you must get back in good time, or you may be left behind. There is no surprise that this has happened, everybody knows the score!
It is possible that the CC involved will now face disciplinary action from her employer - for failing to make herself available for a duty. This could theoretically result in dismissal.
It is well known that PMi is a large an busy airport where access to the aircraft is controlled and sometimes difficult - in short, it is one of the sillier places to go shopping!
Provided the legal number of crew are retained on board, pax may be boarded and the flight departed correctly, as was obviously the case here.
Waiting, even 5 minutes, could jeopardise the slot and incur a multi-hour delay (mentioned previously). This would affect not only pax on that partciular flight, but also pax on all subsequent rotations of that aircraft on that day.
If a person is old enough to initiate and manage an evacuation, then they are also old enough to get themselves back to the aircraft in time, or back to the UK from Pmi. If you don't like that risk, then don't do the shopping!
This person has my sympathy, because they're probably feeling extremely uncomfortable at the moment, but it was their own stupid fault - all this to save pennies on some fags/perfume/booze or whatever. The operation comes first - end of story - and we all know that!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not familiar with this particular incident but am curious about your definition of "duty of care" Mr Eagle (moderator) ?
Duty of care is one of those terms that can and often is employed in abstract fashion to mean anything you want it to mean. The responsibilities of a Commander are usually enshined in the operations manual and in turn governed by legal statute.
If a crewmember obtains permission to disembark the aircraft downroute and then subsequently fails to rejoin it prior to departure time it clearly raises a number of serious concerns but I cannot find any section in statute or operational instructions that make such a situation a breach of any "duty of care".
From a Captains perspective there would naturally be a concern regarding any missing crewmember and that would involve the airport ground representative ( presumably at management level) and the police if necessary. Ordinarilly the onus would be on the crewmember to rejoin the flight in a timely manner or use their common sense to communicate any difficulties in so doing. Nothing has been suggested here to indicate that wasn't actually done ? The captains responsibilty is then to the company and that would be to ensure that the operation from both a safety and efficiency standpoint is not unduly compromised. It is not an unreasonable hypothosis to suggest that a flight could depart one crewmember down where that crewmember is not absolutely necessary to the operation. This would no doubt be balanced in consideration to the "duty of care" to the paying customers on board as well as those that any delay might affect on later flights. The costs to the company as a consequence of any such delay would also be valid. At many of the resort airports in Europe and indeed at airports where an airline has a significant representation, there are often multiple flights on the same day and any subsequent repatriation of an aircrew member is unlikely to present much of a logistical problem. Notwithstanding that, the crewmeber would be repatriated at whatever cost by the most expeditious means.
I am not sure where the assumption came from that this was a young person but even so they were still presumably a reasonably intelligent adult ? Foreign country assumes the individual wasn't already a citizen of that country ? Presumably they were an E.C citizen and since they hadn't commited any crime the point is fairly redundant. I find it hard to believe that such a situation stemmed from any malicious intent on the part of the other crew or the Commander so this is hardly "nasty".
Palma airport is one of the busiest holiday airports in the world. Slot delays here in the summer can have major commercial repercussions for a company. I would certainly question the wisdom of allowing any crewmember to wander far from the aircraft for non urgent matters in the course of an ordinary turnaround. However I can well understand not allowing commercial damage to result from such a situation given that sensible procedures and proper liason and reporting were carried out by any commander.
As a footnote I would also point out that very short shrift is allowed to passengers who fail to board the aircraft on time. They are often left to fend for themselves without due regard to their alternative repatriation. Assuming such passengers are also adults, the fact that they may be "young" or in a "foreign country" is also normally of precious little concern.
Duty of care is one of those terms that can and often is employed in abstract fashion to mean anything you want it to mean. The responsibilities of a Commander are usually enshined in the operations manual and in turn governed by legal statute.
If a crewmember obtains permission to disembark the aircraft downroute and then subsequently fails to rejoin it prior to departure time it clearly raises a number of serious concerns but I cannot find any section in statute or operational instructions that make such a situation a breach of any "duty of care".
From a Captains perspective there would naturally be a concern regarding any missing crewmember and that would involve the airport ground representative ( presumably at management level) and the police if necessary. Ordinarilly the onus would be on the crewmember to rejoin the flight in a timely manner or use their common sense to communicate any difficulties in so doing. Nothing has been suggested here to indicate that wasn't actually done ? The captains responsibilty is then to the company and that would be to ensure that the operation from both a safety and efficiency standpoint is not unduly compromised. It is not an unreasonable hypothosis to suggest that a flight could depart one crewmember down where that crewmember is not absolutely necessary to the operation. This would no doubt be balanced in consideration to the "duty of care" to the paying customers on board as well as those that any delay might affect on later flights. The costs to the company as a consequence of any such delay would also be valid. At many of the resort airports in Europe and indeed at airports where an airline has a significant representation, there are often multiple flights on the same day and any subsequent repatriation of an aircrew member is unlikely to present much of a logistical problem. Notwithstanding that, the crewmeber would be repatriated at whatever cost by the most expeditious means.
I am not sure where the assumption came from that this was a young person but even so they were still presumably a reasonably intelligent adult ? Foreign country assumes the individual wasn't already a citizen of that country ? Presumably they were an E.C citizen and since they hadn't commited any crime the point is fairly redundant. I find it hard to believe that such a situation stemmed from any malicious intent on the part of the other crew or the Commander so this is hardly "nasty".
Palma airport is one of the busiest holiday airports in the world. Slot delays here in the summer can have major commercial repercussions for a company. I would certainly question the wisdom of allowing any crewmember to wander far from the aircraft for non urgent matters in the course of an ordinary turnaround. However I can well understand not allowing commercial damage to result from such a situation given that sensible procedures and proper liason and reporting were carried out by any commander.
As a footnote I would also point out that very short shrift is allowed to passengers who fail to board the aircraft on time. They are often left to fend for themselves without due regard to their alternative repatriation. Assuming such passengers are also adults, the fact that they may be "young" or in a "foreign country" is also normally of precious little concern.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yup, agree with pretty well everything you say Bealzebub. In my days in charter they would have been left behind too! Just wondered in todays rather more PC world how it might apply, twenty five years on, glad to see that the UK hasn't gone completely mad.
Down here in Oz 'duty of care' has seen some very odd judgements and division of property!
As a Mod I was just offering up another angle to an interesting discussion, not any sort of opinion, nothing more sinister than that! Well within the remit of a mod on a civilised forum such as this
(Since you chose to draw attention to it!).
Down here in Oz 'duty of care' has seen some very odd judgements and division of property!
As a Mod I was just offering up another angle to an interesting discussion, not any sort of opinion, nothing more sinister than that! Well within the remit of a mod on a civilised forum such as this
(Since you chose to draw attention to it!).
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Perth
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a pretty interesting story but so far we havnt really heard many real facts other than the basics. I think that maybe there is a bit more to the story, in order for the aircraft to leave without her you would think they didnt notice or the person was taking a bit of a risk and the crew realised this and decided not the delay the aircraft and leave (while also teaching them a lesson)
Anyone got any more info?
Thanks
GOH
Anyone got any more info?
Thanks
GOH
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think she was a victim of a massive movement of slot time , and congestion in whichever shop she was in.
She returned to the UK on another Monarch A/C about an hour later and no further action was taken.
Monarch flights operate above the legal minimum , if this was a Monarch Scheduled flight ,could be as many as 3 extra cabin crew
Don't think there was any "lesson teaching" involved , just a victim of circumstance,
Its all second hand , an someone probably knows more and better than me
She returned to the UK on another Monarch A/C about an hour later and no further action was taken.
Monarch flights operate above the legal minimum , if this was a Monarch Scheduled flight ,could be as many as 3 extra cabin crew
Don't think there was any "lesson teaching" involved , just a victim of circumstance,
Its all second hand , an someone probably knows more and better than me
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brighton. Gatwick based
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys
It happen to me, many moons ago. 1989 in fact.
I was a little TJ ( temp junior) with Caley at MAN, and had only been flying a month or so. Anyway, part of a designated crew members working position was termianl duty, the idea being you went over to the terminal downroute with the last passengers and back with the first. It was done from a customer care perspective "to ensure company visibility" and to liase with the ground staff, however, most crew took the opportunity to have a shop and the smokers to hide in a toilet cubicle.
It was about 4 in the morning in the old ATH airport, a nightmare at the best of times, and like a dutiful number 6 I went to find 233 tired punters to guide them back onto our 757.
After wandering around the departure lounge for what seemed like ages I couldn't locate any likely candidates, After a while our flight disappeared from the board, so I went to the Olympic desk to explain my plight. The agent had a broad grin on his face and seemed to take pleasure in informing my my aircraft had gone. My P45 flashed before my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!
What had happen was we actual had no pax at all and ops had got their figures wrong. The aircraft had a "tight slot"back to MAN, and the captain was not prepared to wait. I've never forgotten his name, M*** M*********.
I positioned back 3 hours later on the front row of Club on a BA Tristar, I didn;t half get some funny looks from the passengers in my KT uniform. When got back to MAN the Director of Cabin Services was ironically there. Thought I was for the chop!
However, I survived, Happy days..................................
Long live the Dog
It happen to me, many moons ago. 1989 in fact.
I was a little TJ ( temp junior) with Caley at MAN, and had only been flying a month or so. Anyway, part of a designated crew members working position was termianl duty, the idea being you went over to the terminal downroute with the last passengers and back with the first. It was done from a customer care perspective "to ensure company visibility" and to liase with the ground staff, however, most crew took the opportunity to have a shop and the smokers to hide in a toilet cubicle.
It was about 4 in the morning in the old ATH airport, a nightmare at the best of times, and like a dutiful number 6 I went to find 233 tired punters to guide them back onto our 757.
After wandering around the departure lounge for what seemed like ages I couldn't locate any likely candidates, After a while our flight disappeared from the board, so I went to the Olympic desk to explain my plight. The agent had a broad grin on his face and seemed to take pleasure in informing my my aircraft had gone. My P45 flashed before my eyes!!!!!!!!!!!
What had happen was we actual had no pax at all and ops had got their figures wrong. The aircraft had a "tight slot"back to MAN, and the captain was not prepared to wait. I've never forgotten his name, M*** M*********.
I positioned back 3 hours later on the front row of Club on a BA Tristar, I didn;t half get some funny looks from the passengers in my KT uniform. When got back to MAN the Director of Cabin Services was ironically there. Thought I was for the chop!
However, I survived, Happy days..................................
Long live the Dog
Last edited by BlueEagle; 23rd Jul 2004 at 10:47.
