Is Air Canada dead?
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Wow - where to begin. 150driver - yeah and I can't wait until you can't feed your family (what a dumb-ass thing to say). . You are probably bang on about the pay structure in Canada if AC goes Tango Uniform. Does that mean a new FO at WestJet will go to the Food Bank Twice a month(?) - I kid you not - it is deplorable. Oh and since you are "in the know" about who was on the Barbados aircraft - you too must be privy to that info (via the folks at WJ???). That is confidential information - you don't know. I know guys like you though that just hate AC because you dont work for them.
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skyhawk1
WJ accessed a private employee web site not a public one and it is updated in real time.
Personally I'm starting to have trouble with folks that think whatever business does is ok, damn the morality and ethics, full steam ahead because the bottom line is king.
Then we wonder why the youth of today don't understand the difference between right and wrong.
WJ accessed a private employee web site not a public one and it is updated in real time.
Personally I'm starting to have trouble with folks that think whatever business does is ok, damn the morality and ethics, full steam ahead because the bottom line is king.
Then we wonder why the youth of today don't understand the difference between right and wrong.
Last edited by Tan; 7th Apr 2004 at 20:14.
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Tan - it is true - immoral is immoral. I know from first hand experience that if AC sneezes the media is all over it with any kind of negative spin possible. WJ can do whatever they like and the media puts a positive slant on it. WJ knows that. I know from first hand experience that you are just as likely to be treated like crap at WJ as you are AC. There employees are human too. They do not have a secret recipe on how to hire perfectly. There have been a number of mechanical problems that have failed to hit the media at all. I am all for competition and job creation in Canada - but call a spade a spade. Oh and on the other topic of going into small communities. The government mandates that AC goes into certain communities whether they are profitable or not. They also mandated that flight attendants speak French - at ACs expense. If any of this were forced on WJ how long would they survive? They wouldn't. They playing field should be even first.
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Westjet should be held accountable for this if it's true, but they are still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. It would be nice to know though why Air Canada took so long to bring this up. You would think they would have shut this down much sooner.
Air Canada itself hasn't been much better towards Westjet, or any other competitors. Westjet was almost given gates to the new terminal in Toronto as Air Canada had said it would only need some of them. Then someone at AC found out that the remaining gates were going to be given to Westjet. All of a sudden they needed all of the gates. Not to mention trying to undercut prices on routes that competitors were flying to run them out of business.
It would be great if all corporations were held accountable and actually punished, but that might be wishing too much.
goates
Air Canada itself hasn't been much better towards Westjet, or any other competitors. Westjet was almost given gates to the new terminal in Toronto as Air Canada had said it would only need some of them. Then someone at AC found out that the remaining gates were going to be given to Westjet. All of a sudden they needed all of the gates. Not to mention trying to undercut prices on routes that competitors were flying to run them out of business.
It would be great if all corporations were held accountable and actually punished, but that might be wishing too much.
goates
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dareya writes "The government mandates that AC goes into certain communities whether they are profitable or not."
To which I repeat the same question. Which communities/routes are those ? Specifically, please.
Tan I'm not defending WJ 'mining' the family site, just pointing out that there is probably nothing on there which couldn't be gleaned through other means. Both parties look dumb here - AC letting it go on and WJ thinking they wouldn't eventually be sussed.
To which I repeat the same question. Which communities/routes are those ? Specifically, please.
Tan I'm not defending WJ 'mining' the family site, just pointing out that there is probably nothing on there which couldn't be gleaned through other means. Both parties look dumb here - AC letting it go on and WJ thinking they wouldn't eventually be sussed.
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Air Canada Announces Resignation Of Calin Rovinescu
Air Canada Announces Resignation Of Calin Rovinescu....Read the full story
MONTREAL, April 7 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada announced the resignation of Calin Rovinescu, Executive Vice President and Chief Restructuring Officer. While the resignation is effective today, Mr. Rovinescu will remain available as an advisor to the Company for several weeks to ensure an orderly transition.
MONTREAL, April 7 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada announced the resignation of Calin Rovinescu, Executive Vice President and Chief Restructuring Officer. While the resignation is effective today, Mr. Rovinescu will remain available as an advisor to the Company for several weeks to ensure an orderly transition.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
PaperTiger: I'm not defending WJ 'mining' the family site, just pointing out that there is probably nothing on there which couldn't be gleaned through other means.
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Timing of Air Canada lawsuit against WestJet 'suspect,' WestJet says
Canadian Press
Wednesday, April 07, 2004
CALGARY (CP) - The timing and motivation of an Air Canada lawsuit against WestJet that alleges the Calgary-based carrier stole confidential business information from its larger competitor is "suspect," WestJet said Wednesday.
In a carefully worded but terse statement, WestJet said it will conduct a "thorough investigation" of its own to the allegations that it used the personal identification number of a former employee of Canadian Airlines - which was bought by Air Canada four years ago - to access information about Air Canada's most profitable routes and schedules.
But WestJet said its review will seek "to identify further information which may serve to portray a more accurate representation of the facts."
WestJet also said that two of its employees named in the suit - Jeffrey Lafond, the former Canadian Airlines employee who now works at WestJet as a financial analyst, and Mark Hill, WestJet's vice-president of strategic planning - have accepted a company request to take a leave of absence while the review is conducted.
"WestJet is suspect of both the timing and motivation of the legal action, but does take the allegations very seriously nonetheless," WestJet said in its statement.
As for Lafond and Hill, WestJet said the leaves of absence granted the employees "does not in any way reflect the company's opinion of the conduct of these individuals, but does ensure that the internal investigation can be conducted in the most appropriate environment."
...The lawsuit also comes at a time when WestJet is expanding its routes and eating away more of Air Canada's once-dominant market share. The suit was also filed less than two weeks before WestJet will begin doubling its flights in and out of Toronto to 365 per week, up from 146, beginning April 18.
...WestJet said it is still reviewing the statement of claim and supporting documents filed by Air Canada, but added that it is "deeply concerned that there has been a challenge to the integrity of our company and our employees.
"We take very seriously our business code of conduct and have worked hard to entrench it into our corporate culture."...
http://www.canada.com/businesscentre...A-857B0223037E
Canadian Press
Wednesday, April 07, 2004
CALGARY (CP) - The timing and motivation of an Air Canada lawsuit against WestJet that alleges the Calgary-based carrier stole confidential business information from its larger competitor is "suspect," WestJet said Wednesday.
In a carefully worded but terse statement, WestJet said it will conduct a "thorough investigation" of its own to the allegations that it used the personal identification number of a former employee of Canadian Airlines - which was bought by Air Canada four years ago - to access information about Air Canada's most profitable routes and schedules.
But WestJet said its review will seek "to identify further information which may serve to portray a more accurate representation of the facts."
WestJet also said that two of its employees named in the suit - Jeffrey Lafond, the former Canadian Airlines employee who now works at WestJet as a financial analyst, and Mark Hill, WestJet's vice-president of strategic planning - have accepted a company request to take a leave of absence while the review is conducted.
"WestJet is suspect of both the timing and motivation of the legal action, but does take the allegations very seriously nonetheless," WestJet said in its statement.
As for Lafond and Hill, WestJet said the leaves of absence granted the employees "does not in any way reflect the company's opinion of the conduct of these individuals, but does ensure that the internal investigation can be conducted in the most appropriate environment."
...The lawsuit also comes at a time when WestJet is expanding its routes and eating away more of Air Canada's once-dominant market share. The suit was also filed less than two weeks before WestJet will begin doubling its flights in and out of Toronto to 365 per week, up from 146, beginning April 18.
...WestJet said it is still reviewing the statement of claim and supporting documents filed by Air Canada, but added that it is "deeply concerned that there has been a challenge to the integrity of our company and our employees.
"We take very seriously our business code of conduct and have worked hard to entrench it into our corporate culture."...
http://www.canada.com/businesscentre...A-857B0223037E
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Quote from another site..
"The individual who did this was given a 'package' from Air Canada when he left. A few company travel passes every year. To book flights on a company pass, you have to use the online booking system. So AC gave him a username and password to the Personal Travel Booking Website.
243,630 hits over a 10 month period. Approx 300 days in this time span, this equates to around 800 hits per day.
Guess how many flights Air Canada has per day? Thats right!
The computer program was checking AC loads, for each flight, everyday!
Makes it easy to bail from routes that aren't being filled by the competitor (which isn't allowed to abandon cities!), and pick up routes that AC is filling their planes on."
"The individual who did this was given a 'package' from Air Canada when he left. A few company travel passes every year. To book flights on a company pass, you have to use the online booking system. So AC gave him a username and password to the Personal Travel Booking Website.
243,630 hits over a 10 month period. Approx 300 days in this time span, this equates to around 800 hits per day.
Guess how many flights Air Canada has per day? Thats right!
The computer program was checking AC loads, for each flight, everyday!
Makes it easy to bail from routes that aren't being filled by the competitor (which isn't allowed to abandon cities!), and pick up routes that AC is filling their planes on."
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Air Canada
It brings back memories of Canadian before the end.
It is simple yet complicated. The airline needs to change in attitude and infrastructure.
I think I had better get my log book up to date....
Does anyone have openings for a 330/340 instructor??
It is simple yet complicated. The airline needs to change in attitude and infrastructure.
I think I had better get my log book up to date....
Does anyone have openings for a 330/340 instructor??
Last edited by theflyinggreek; 8th Apr 2004 at 16:00.
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Sounds pretty damning. If true that would have to rank as one of the all-time STUPIDEST corporate espionage tactics.
Using a password of an ex-employee now on your team- did nobody at WJ see how obvious it would be once they got caught?! Ouch.
Using a password of an ex-employee now on your team- did nobody at WJ see how obvious it would be once they got caught?! Ouch.
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Has all the makings of a typical Canadian Scandal. Silly, petulant, inconsequential and laughable to the rest of the world. 
First the gates nonsense at YYZ (gategate ?) and now theft of 'confidential' information. I don't have access to the website in question, but if it's used just to book non-rev tickets then it ought only to show space available on that basis. AC is probably hoping to get a dumb jurist (lots of them) to swallow their claims of just how useful the information was/is. If the website does indeed show 'profitabilty' as alleged then I don't think corporate naïveté is much of a sustainable argument in court.
And at the very least those two at WJ need their heads banging together.
Quite, quite silly.
First the gates nonsense at YYZ (gategate ?) and now theft of 'confidential' information. I don't have access to the website in question, but if it's used just to book non-rev tickets then it ought only to show space available on that basis. AC is probably hoping to get a dumb jurist (lots of them) to swallow their claims of just how useful the information was/is. If the website does indeed show 'profitabilty' as alleged then I don't think corporate naïveté is much of a sustainable argument in court.
And at the very least those two at WJ need their heads banging together.
Quite, quite silly.
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Air Canada links WestJet success to 'tap'
Lawsuit documents filed: Accusation that Web site data gave carrier unfair edge
Paul Vieira
Financial Post
Thursday, April 08, 2004
Senior Air Canada executives claim the remarkable success of WestJet Airlines Ltd., compared with the struggles and failures of other domestic low-cost carriers like CanJet and Roots Air, and its recent shift in corporate strategy are tied to its ability to tap unlawfully into the insolvent company's secrets.
The allegation comes in a series of affidavits filed by airline executives, technology staff and security managers in a support of an Air Canada lawsuit against its rival and two of its employees. The documents, which contain allegations yet to be proven in court, spin a tale that suggest many of the recent moves by the Calgary discounter -- from shifting its eastern hub from Hamilton to Toronto, to changing flight times on certain routes -- were done based on illegal access to Air Canada data.
The Montreal airline alleges WestJet was able, between May of last year and last March 19, to gain access to an Air Canada Web site on at least 240,000 occasions to acquire secret data -- namely passenger traffic and load factors on flights -- by using the personal I.D. of Jeffrey Laffond, a WestJet financial analyst, a former Canadian Airlines employee who was given a log-in password in order to book two free Air Canada flights a year until 2005 as part of his severance package.
Air Canada hinted WestJet may have tapped into the computer before May, 2003, but a change in software prevents Air Canada from tracking back that far.
Air Canada was first tipped off last December by a WestJet employee that the low-cost carrier's executives had access to its rival's secrets.
The whistle-blower decided to spill the beans to Stephen Smith, head of Air Canada's Zip discount subsidiary, because he "was upset, disgusted and concerned about unfair business practices ... in a vicious business."
Air Canada executives argued in the affidavits that WestJet's having access to this confidential information helps explain many of the company's recent moves and a change in corporate direction.
Montie Brewer, Air Canada's vice-president of commercial operations, cited as an example a change in scheduling on WestJet's Vancouver-Montreal route.
Six months after it started, WestJet "made a dramatic scheduling change, moving its only flight on that route from the evening to the early morning -- which coincides with Air Canada's most profitable time for this route," Mr. Brewer said in his affidavit, adding that was likely done with secret data in hand.
He also cites the recent announcement that WestJet is abandoning Hamilton as its eastern Canadian hub in favour of Toronto.
"By observing that Air Canada's loads out of Toronto to Montreal and Ottawa remained steady despite WestJet's presence in Hamilton, WestJet was able to determine that its Hamilton-based flights were not attracting Air Canada's Toronto customers," Mr. Brewer said, "and therefore, moved to Toronto."
The filings also note that as of January 2000, WestJet has skyrocketed from a 10% market share to 30%.
"It has done this at a time when other low-fare airlines who do not have access to Air Canada's confidential information have tried through trial and error to establish viable combinations of routes and fares," Mr. Brewer said, noting Canada 3000 and Roots Air collapsed, while CanJet and Jetsgo struggle.
Ben Smith, Air Canada's senior director of planning, said part of his job is to monitor WestJet's routes. "It has become apparent to me that there has been a marked change in WestJet's recent strategy," he said. "Formerly, it was very conservative about adding new routes -- generally one at a time, and staying within Canada.
"By contrast," Mr. Smith said, "its record on new routes over the past 18 months has been very good. It has added routes for which there is strong demand, and it has become apparently risk aggressive in its expansion."
WestJet has said it will respond to the allegations once it has reviewed all the court materials filed by Air Canada.
© National Post 2004
Lawsuit documents filed: Accusation that Web site data gave carrier unfair edge
Paul Vieira
Financial Post
Thursday, April 08, 2004
Senior Air Canada executives claim the remarkable success of WestJet Airlines Ltd., compared with the struggles and failures of other domestic low-cost carriers like CanJet and Roots Air, and its recent shift in corporate strategy are tied to its ability to tap unlawfully into the insolvent company's secrets.
The allegation comes in a series of affidavits filed by airline executives, technology staff and security managers in a support of an Air Canada lawsuit against its rival and two of its employees. The documents, which contain allegations yet to be proven in court, spin a tale that suggest many of the recent moves by the Calgary discounter -- from shifting its eastern hub from Hamilton to Toronto, to changing flight times on certain routes -- were done based on illegal access to Air Canada data.
The Montreal airline alleges WestJet was able, between May of last year and last March 19, to gain access to an Air Canada Web site on at least 240,000 occasions to acquire secret data -- namely passenger traffic and load factors on flights -- by using the personal I.D. of Jeffrey Laffond, a WestJet financial analyst, a former Canadian Airlines employee who was given a log-in password in order to book two free Air Canada flights a year until 2005 as part of his severance package.
Air Canada hinted WestJet may have tapped into the computer before May, 2003, but a change in software prevents Air Canada from tracking back that far.
Air Canada was first tipped off last December by a WestJet employee that the low-cost carrier's executives had access to its rival's secrets.
The whistle-blower decided to spill the beans to Stephen Smith, head of Air Canada's Zip discount subsidiary, because he "was upset, disgusted and concerned about unfair business practices ... in a vicious business."
Air Canada executives argued in the affidavits that WestJet's having access to this confidential information helps explain many of the company's recent moves and a change in corporate direction.
Montie Brewer, Air Canada's vice-president of commercial operations, cited as an example a change in scheduling on WestJet's Vancouver-Montreal route.
Six months after it started, WestJet "made a dramatic scheduling change, moving its only flight on that route from the evening to the early morning -- which coincides with Air Canada's most profitable time for this route," Mr. Brewer said in his affidavit, adding that was likely done with secret data in hand.
He also cites the recent announcement that WestJet is abandoning Hamilton as its eastern Canadian hub in favour of Toronto.
"By observing that Air Canada's loads out of Toronto to Montreal and Ottawa remained steady despite WestJet's presence in Hamilton, WestJet was able to determine that its Hamilton-based flights were not attracting Air Canada's Toronto customers," Mr. Brewer said, "and therefore, moved to Toronto."
The filings also note that as of January 2000, WestJet has skyrocketed from a 10% market share to 30%.
"It has done this at a time when other low-fare airlines who do not have access to Air Canada's confidential information have tried through trial and error to establish viable combinations of routes and fares," Mr. Brewer said, noting Canada 3000 and Roots Air collapsed, while CanJet and Jetsgo struggle.
Ben Smith, Air Canada's senior director of planning, said part of his job is to monitor WestJet's routes. "It has become apparent to me that there has been a marked change in WestJet's recent strategy," he said. "Formerly, it was very conservative about adding new routes -- generally one at a time, and staying within Canada.
"By contrast," Mr. Smith said, "its record on new routes over the past 18 months has been very good. It has added routes for which there is strong demand, and it has become apparently risk aggressive in its expansion."
WestJet has said it will respond to the allegations once it has reviewed all the court materials filed by Air Canada.
© National Post 2004
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Six months after it started, WestJet "made a dramatic scheduling change, moving its only flight on that route from the evening to the early morning -- which coincides with Air Canada's most profitable time for this route," Mr. Brewer said in his affidavit, adding that was likely done with secret data in hand.
GMAFB
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"By observing that Air Canada's loads out of Toronto to Montreal and Ottawa remained steady despite WestJet's presence in Hamilton, WestJet was able to determine that its Hamilton-based flights were not attracting Air Canada's Toronto customers," Mr. Brewer said, "and therefore, moved to Toronto."
generally one at a time, and staying within Canada.
This still doesn't excuse stealing confidential data (why would you have it accessible over the internet doesn't make sense either), but the reasons given above seem pretty weak.
goates
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Obviously WJ thought they did which speaks volumes about their business sense.
Being a thief is being a thief there is no nice way to put it.
The Canadian press treat WJ as the golden boy that can do no wrong. Perhaps if an investigator reporter were to talk to some of the AC folks in Calgary where WJ’s main base is they would get a surprise.
Being a thief is being a thief there is no nice way to put it.
The Canadian press treat WJ as the golden boy that can do no wrong. Perhaps if an investigator reporter were to talk to some of the AC folks in Calgary where WJ’s main base is they would get a surprise.