Flybe. BHD changes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: ENGLAND
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flybe. BHD changes
Flybe has altered some of it's BHD services.
LBA down to 3 per weekday all DH4 a/c
NCL down to 3 per weekday 1 146 and 2 DH4 flights
I always thought BE's main advantage apart from flying into BHD was their business schedule, ie frequent flights, seems this was not the case!
Regards
Mike
LBA down to 3 per weekday all DH4 a/c
NCL down to 3 per weekday 1 146 and 2 DH4 flights
I always thought BE's main advantage apart from flying into BHD was their business schedule, ie frequent flights, seems this was not the case!
Regards
Mike
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: belfast
Posts: 669
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It appears they are feeling the competition from Jet 2/Easyjet from BFS on these routes - they seem to be concentrating on the more profitable routes as BHX now appears to be 7 per weekday, think this was 6 before - presumably this is due to the demise of MytravelLite on the BHX from BFS from the end of April.
It will be interesting to see how the GLA & EDI routes are performing once they've been running for a while.
It will be interesting to see how the GLA & EDI routes are performing once they've been running for a while.
Last edited by ALLMCC; 2nd Apr 2004 at 11:00.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: EXETER,UK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it is quite simply the introduction of larger aircraft. Obvoioulsy of the route can be buiilt the frequency will go back up, or otherwise other destinations will be served--e.g. EXT direct.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets be realistic here.
A year ago Flybe used to operate 4 daily flights in each direction on the LBABHD route giving a total of approx 200 seats in each direction each day. JET2 come along on the same route and expand capacity overnight by 150% adding 300 seats in each direction.
I'm not getting at JET2 here because I still believe that Flybe can easily compete and retain there fair share of the market to make a profit. However you cannot expect another airline to come in and increase the capacity of such a route with no detrimental effect.
Flybe have done the sensible thing and reduced capacity by cutting out the mid morning rotation that typically yields the least profit.
Remember that Flybe is still offering more seats with 3 Q400 rotations than it would have done with 4 CRJ rotations and with healthy loads too.
A year ago Flybe used to operate 4 daily flights in each direction on the LBABHD route giving a total of approx 200 seats in each direction each day. JET2 come along on the same route and expand capacity overnight by 150% adding 300 seats in each direction.
I'm not getting at JET2 here because I still believe that Flybe can easily compete and retain there fair share of the market to make a profit. However you cannot expect another airline to come in and increase the capacity of such a route with no detrimental effect.
Flybe have done the sensible thing and reduced capacity by cutting out the mid morning rotation that typically yields the least profit.
Remember that Flybe is still offering more seats with 3 Q400 rotations than it would have done with 4 CRJ rotations and with healthy loads too.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good comment JobsaGoodun. It is unfortunate that rotations on one of the Company's longest running and most profitable routes (formerly LBA-BHD, now BHD-LBA) have been reduced, but hopefully as more aircraft are delivered and capacity around the rapidly expanding network is increased, further rotations will be added.
With regard to Jet2's service to LBA from BFS, although I have huge respect and admiration for what Jet2 have had the bottle to do at LBA, the Belfast locals tell me that where it concerns a business link between the 2 Cities, BHD is the one to choose, and that BFS is, in the main, the place "to go on holiday from." I have no idea what the load factors are for Jet2's service, this is just local Belfast opinion.
With regard to Jet2's service to LBA from BFS, although I have huge respect and admiration for what Jet2 have had the bottle to do at LBA, the Belfast locals tell me that where it concerns a business link between the 2 Cities, BHD is the one to choose, and that BFS is, in the main, the place "to go on holiday from." I have no idea what the load factors are for Jet2's service, this is just local Belfast opinion.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: U.A.E
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"the company"actually picked this route up from the demise of capital airlines in 1990...it always had weather problems esp when it was FK27's....its only in recent years it has been done by a belfast based aircraft......
The old bhd/bfs argument means nothing in NI terms..jet aircraft are better........!blah......
....oops 2 much vino...hic
The old bhd/bfs argument means nothing in NI terms..jet aircraft are better........!blah......
....oops 2 much vino...hic
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: manchester
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air UK had operated the BFS-LBA route for many years and it was very successful.Then along came Capitol who undercut fares so much that they bankrupted themselves and also took down the Air Uk service.After that, the saviour was Jy who hiked the fares so much that a full flex fare was up to £280.00 rtn.BTW,it still was untill Jet2 started the route again to BFS.
Also ,Capitol never ran F27s on the route,Air Uk did.Capitol ran Shorts SD360-300s equipped with 39 seats.I also believe Flymo Thompson was at the helm at the time,probably why they went under,he nearly did with Air Wales,apparently
Also ,Capitol never ran F27s on the route,Air Uk did.Capitol ran Shorts SD360-300s equipped with 39 seats.I also believe Flymo Thompson was at the helm at the time,probably why they went under,he nearly did with Air Wales,apparently
Last edited by glynn-kayes; 3rd Apr 2004 at 22:41.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: London UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Capital Airlines did not go bust. Brown Group International the parent company did because of their troubled construction business and this brought down Capital.
After the reciever had finished, Capital had a trading surplus of £4m. This was even after the sale of Capital's assets to Knight Air at a knock down price. £800k was what was paid for the whole Capital LBA operation which included hangar, engines, parts and ground equipment. It was worth £m's more. The money went into the Group receivers pot due to financial cross guarantees.
LBA-BFS/BHD. Air UK had milked LBA/BFS pax for years. Capital came on the route, cut the fare, simplified ticket purchase rules (none) and took Air UK's pax. Capital were probalby the first low cost carrier in the UK, years ahead of their time.
FlyBe, or JEA as it was then, got a good route when Capital ceased operations, as did Loganair LBA-GLA and others.
Jim French knew the LBA-BHD/BFS market well, he was of course ex. Air UK.
As for Thompson, there would never have been a Capital Airlines or even an Air Wales today if he had not gone in there.
Brown Air, as it was then, were a shambles and losing £m's, Thompson turned it round and made it profitable. Air Wales were no different. In both cases the financial backer(s) were within weeks of ceasing operations due to the huge operating losses both airlines were experiencing under their current management.
As in any rescue operation, there are casualties, usually the existing management and some of the staff. This predictably happened at Brown Air/Capital and at Air Wales. Rescues are a difficult job and need fast and clinical action and Air Wales still flies today because of it.
After the reciever had finished, Capital had a trading surplus of £4m. This was even after the sale of Capital's assets to Knight Air at a knock down price. £800k was what was paid for the whole Capital LBA operation which included hangar, engines, parts and ground equipment. It was worth £m's more. The money went into the Group receivers pot due to financial cross guarantees.
LBA-BFS/BHD. Air UK had milked LBA/BFS pax for years. Capital came on the route, cut the fare, simplified ticket purchase rules (none) and took Air UK's pax. Capital were probalby the first low cost carrier in the UK, years ahead of their time.
FlyBe, or JEA as it was then, got a good route when Capital ceased operations, as did Loganair LBA-GLA and others.
Jim French knew the LBA-BHD/BFS market well, he was of course ex. Air UK.
As for Thompson, there would never have been a Capital Airlines or even an Air Wales today if he had not gone in there.
Brown Air, as it was then, were a shambles and losing £m's, Thompson turned it round and made it profitable. Air Wales were no different. In both cases the financial backer(s) were within weeks of ceasing operations due to the huge operating losses both airlines were experiencing under their current management.
As in any rescue operation, there are casualties, usually the existing management and some of the staff. This predictably happened at Brown Air/Capital and at Air Wales. Rescues are a difficult job and need fast and clinical action and Air Wales still flies today because of it.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brown Air / Capital
Tadge of subject but SATCOgirl's (well said may I add) comments has brought back a few memories :-
I remember the 1st Brown Air Gulfstream landing at HUY, operated a strange route Leeds/Bradford to Frankfurt via Humberside.
Great airline to fly on too and just a shame G. Brown and his earthmoving toys let the whole deck cards collaspe.
I remember the 1st Brown Air Gulfstream landing at HUY, operated a strange route Leeds/Bradford to Frankfurt via Humberside.
Great airline to fly on too and just a shame G. Brown and his earthmoving toys let the whole deck cards collaspe.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: On the move
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BHD-LBA
The early morning BE flight from Belfast to Leeds is a disaster.
I have seen the flight cancelled or diverted many times.
The DH4 having only Cat1 avionics does not help.
Sometimes Jet2 have flown to Belfast and returned before BE arrive in the morning.
I have seen the flight cancelled or diverted many times.
The DH4 having only Cat1 avionics does not help.
Sometimes Jet2 have flown to Belfast and returned before BE arrive in the morning.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wawkrk
Flybe's Q400's are all CAT II equipped, but a CAT II aircraft is useless if the crew are not qualified. Flybe has employed an awful lot of new flight deck and unfortunately until they have sufficient hours on type they will only be deemed CAT I.
This would explain any inability to land in poor weather however Flybe's load factors do not support your views that the morning flight is a disaster.
Flybe's Q400's are all CAT II equipped, but a CAT II aircraft is useless if the crew are not qualified. Flybe has employed an awful lot of new flight deck and unfortunately until they have sufficient hours on type they will only be deemed CAT I.
This would explain any inability to land in poor weather however Flybe's load factors do not support your views that the morning flight is a disaster.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UAE
Posts: 670
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wawkrk
I think many times is stretching it a bit and when it is cancelled it is rarely due to Wx at Lba. I can only think of a few occasions last year when the a/c was diverted and none this year so far that I can recall.....
I think many times is stretching it a bit and when it is cancelled it is rarely due to Wx at Lba. I can only think of a few occasions last year when the a/c was diverted and none this year so far that I can recall.....
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The closure of the base at LBA caused much bad feeling in the airline at the time, feelings that still bubble under the surface even now. This meant that the aircraft operating the route would originate from BHD, and the timings therefore do not work very well for the travelling business community. In their eyes the early morning service needs to originate from LBA, which would have the knock-on effect of a properly timed evening service back to LBA. However, with no LBA base, the airline cannot satisfy the business community's requirements, but the load factors are still generally very good despite this.
Let's get this straight......long before Flybe, Capital and Air UK good old BKS Air Transport operated the Yeadon to Aldergrove route in the late 50s with Dakotas and subsequently AV748S! Of course they were followed by British Air Services, Northeast Airlines and eventually British Airways all with Viscounts. Those were the days and without even Cat 1 ILS at LBA diversions were more common than arrivals!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: U.A.E
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bl***y Hell...talk about being miss quoted....& I should be used to it recently......!
I didn't say capital went bust...I mentioned their demise...& I now remember how unfortunate & unfair it seemed at the time cos we all knew they were doing well & it was just a consequence of the parent company....infact if I could be bold enough to suggest they were ahead of their time & were very low cost like.....
Neither did I say THEY had FK27's...I was refering to JEA....yes capital did use sheds & the odd time BA46's...GOSUN/GOSKI..now I am showing just how sad I am.....!
AirUK did an LBA briefly from BHD in 94 if I remember correctly....!
Nite...
I didn't say capital went bust...I mentioned their demise...& I now remember how unfortunate & unfair it seemed at the time cos we all knew they were doing well & it was just a consequence of the parent company....infact if I could be bold enough to suggest they were ahead of their time & were very low cost like.....
Neither did I say THEY had FK27's...I was refering to JEA....yes capital did use sheds & the odd time BA46's...GOSUN/GOSKI..now I am showing just how sad I am.....!
AirUK did an LBA briefly from BHD in 94 if I remember correctly....!
Nite...
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: manchester
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excuse me.SATCOgirl but I very much beg to differ,I regulary flew from Bfs to Lba in the late eighties and always found Airuk very cheap,and always got my fares for £29.00 each way.Then I flew Capitol a few times,for a fiver cheaper maybe to my cost as I arrived at LBA one friday to be told by the check in agent "sorry Capitol have gone bust and youre flight is cancelled".I still have never got my money back.So dont talk S**t,they went bust and left not just myself,but a lot of other people stranded.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: London UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
glynn-kayes quote:
==============================================
"Air UK had operated the BFS-LBA route for many years and it was very successful. Then along came Capitol who undercut fares so much that they bankrupted themselves".
==============================================
You state in your latest post that you flew for a "fiver less" with Capital. Is this undercutting fares "so much".
The Capital fare structure was a capacity controlled £29/£39/£49, the sooner you purchased the better chance you had of the lower fare(s). Air UK had nothing like this fare structure before Capital (£60+ one way) and only reacted by cutting their fares as a result of the competitive stimulus.
As regards Capital going bust:
Capital were a seperate company but part of a group. Capital did not go bust, the group, Brown Group International (BGI) did and brought Capital down with it. The individually audited company accounts produced by the receiver showed Capital with an operating surplus of £4m but there was an uncollectable debt owed to Capital by BGI which exceeded the surplus. As a result the airline was unable to meet its obligations. So yes, Capital was inslovent, not as result of its operations, but as a result of the accounting practices of its parent, over which it had no control.
glynn-kayes quote:
==============================================
"I also believe Flymo Thompson was at the helm at the time,probably why they went under,he nearly did with Air Wales,apparently".
==============================================
Perhaps you can support the above allergation(s) given the facts above re. Capital and the fact that Air Wales was restructured by "Flymo Thompson" and went from a "shambles" operation with 2 DO228's to 5 ATR42's.
The changes I saw in my professional capacity were, flights acutally operating, operating pretty much on time and carrying passengers, i.e. mostly full. This was a stark contrast from the previous management of both airlines where flights were often cancelled at the drop of a hat and frequently flew virtually empty.
I only saw improvement in both their operations.
==============================================
"Air UK had operated the BFS-LBA route for many years and it was very successful. Then along came Capitol who undercut fares so much that they bankrupted themselves".
==============================================
You state in your latest post that you flew for a "fiver less" with Capital. Is this undercutting fares "so much".
The Capital fare structure was a capacity controlled £29/£39/£49, the sooner you purchased the better chance you had of the lower fare(s). Air UK had nothing like this fare structure before Capital (£60+ one way) and only reacted by cutting their fares as a result of the competitive stimulus.
As regards Capital going bust:
Capital were a seperate company but part of a group. Capital did not go bust, the group, Brown Group International (BGI) did and brought Capital down with it. The individually audited company accounts produced by the receiver showed Capital with an operating surplus of £4m but there was an uncollectable debt owed to Capital by BGI which exceeded the surplus. As a result the airline was unable to meet its obligations. So yes, Capital was inslovent, not as result of its operations, but as a result of the accounting practices of its parent, over which it had no control.
glynn-kayes quote:
==============================================
"I also believe Flymo Thompson was at the helm at the time,probably why they went under,he nearly did with Air Wales,apparently".
==============================================
Perhaps you can support the above allergation(s) given the facts above re. Capital and the fact that Air Wales was restructured by "Flymo Thompson" and went from a "shambles" operation with 2 DO228's to 5 ATR42's.
The changes I saw in my professional capacity were, flights acutally operating, operating pretty much on time and carrying passengers, i.e. mostly full. This was a stark contrast from the previous management of both airlines where flights were often cancelled at the drop of a hat and frequently flew virtually empty.
I only saw improvement in both their operations.
