KLM - Air France (merged)
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Jetleg
I am happy to confirm you that the rumour you're refering to is utter bullock. We do pay landing fees and you can imagine the hefty amount it is in CDG.
I always marvel at how ill informed or just dishonest people are.
The last time AF received money from the french governement was in 1993..............with the EEC's approval, which means the appproval of all members. Well, not all. I recall the Germans lodging complain which was formaly dismissed. So far so good.
Since then we've been just good little troopers, striking every now and then to get a share of the pie and fate has brought us some good fortune.
As to slots being allocated on a very biased way this can be debated. Should we allow throat slitters like Ryan Air to set foot when we can avoid it, unless we have a death wish the answer is NO. Wether this is enough to explain why we're doing well, I think not. We are just lucky to have a very balanced network/ fleet, a very important domestic market and every time donk has hit the fan we always had some other part of the world to make up for the lost business. Added to that the fact that our management is probably not entirely stupid and here we are........................ARROGANT AIR FRANCE only eager to please your every phantasy !
Yeap ! I'm pretty enthousiastic about this deal. The unknown being how will the two cultures cohabitate ? Time will tell. As far as I'm concerned I don't see why it souldn't work. I mean half the Dutch already own a home in France anyway !
Yes AF operates only in french and I don't see a merging of flight ops in the next future. What is the need anyway ?
Speaking of belgians, we have a few here who sensibly jumped ship some years ago. I'd say they were bloody right !
Mr Edd must be grinding his teeth and looking for his anti acid tablets.
Lemurian
Didn't call you in sick yesterday ? You sound in the best of form.
Go back to bed, stick the thermo into you know what and drink your cordial
I am happy to confirm you that the rumour you're refering to is utter bullock. We do pay landing fees and you can imagine the hefty amount it is in CDG.
I always marvel at how ill informed or just dishonest people are.
The last time AF received money from the french governement was in 1993..............with the EEC's approval, which means the appproval of all members. Well, not all. I recall the Germans lodging complain which was formaly dismissed. So far so good.
Since then we've been just good little troopers, striking every now and then to get a share of the pie and fate has brought us some good fortune.
As to slots being allocated on a very biased way this can be debated. Should we allow throat slitters like Ryan Air to set foot when we can avoid it, unless we have a death wish the answer is NO. Wether this is enough to explain why we're doing well, I think not. We are just lucky to have a very balanced network/ fleet, a very important domestic market and every time donk has hit the fan we always had some other part of the world to make up for the lost business. Added to that the fact that our management is probably not entirely stupid and here we are........................ARROGANT AIR FRANCE only eager to please your every phantasy !
Yeap ! I'm pretty enthousiastic about this deal. The unknown being how will the two cultures cohabitate ? Time will tell. As far as I'm concerned I don't see why it souldn't work. I mean half the Dutch already own a home in France anyway !
Yes AF operates only in french and I don't see a merging of flight ops in the next future. What is the need anyway ?
Speaking of belgians, we have a few here who sensibly jumped ship some years ago. I'd say they were bloody right !
Mr Edd must be grinding his teeth and looking for his anti acid tablets.
Lemurian
Didn't call you in sick yesterday ? You sound in the best of form.
Go back to bed, stick the thermo into you know what and drink your cordial
Last edited by wallabie; 1st Oct 2003 at 01:04.
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Cool observation wallabie!
Can we interest anyone in a Skoda in the garage?
Anyone? Can somebody buy us please and spare us the slow agony?
AF had a little romance with us back hmmm, methinks about 1994 or so, and of course the news was full of it today. According to the (dis) information, we parted on less then friendly terms because of disagreement on the direction the company/government wanted to go. The gov't bought out their share then, resulting in us being virtually owned by the civil servants.
I can't imagine where we'd be if AF was allowed to stay but I can say where we are now...
and whose direction we should've followed.
Just like you have Nissan / Renault or Peugeot / Citroen, you'll have AF/ KLM or KLM/AF who gives a hoot ?
Anyone? Can somebody buy us please and spare us the slow agony?
AF had a little romance with us back hmmm, methinks about 1994 or so, and of course the news was full of it today. According to the (dis) information, we parted on less then friendly terms because of disagreement on the direction the company/government wanted to go. The gov't bought out their share then, resulting in us being virtually owned by the civil servants.
I can't imagine where we'd be if AF was allowed to stay but I can say where we are now...
and whose direction we should've followed.
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To my great surpise the Dutch Government said
today in diplomatic terms that there was a major
risk of collapse of KLM in the near future. According
to Dutch sources in France they wanted to get hold
of KLM asap because they feared that LH/BA might
get hold of a bankrupt KLM. (source:eight o'clock news
Holland)
I knew things were not good inside KLM but this
sounds very poorly indeed! So it looks more and
more like a desperate move by KLM to keep on flying.
Rgds
today in diplomatic terms that there was a major
risk of collapse of KLM in the near future. According
to Dutch sources in France they wanted to get hold
of KLM asap because they feared that LH/BA might
get hold of a bankrupt KLM. (source:eight o'clock news
Holland)
I knew things were not good inside KLM but this
sounds very poorly indeed! So it looks more and
more like a desperate move by KLM to keep on flying.
Rgds
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Air France and KLM to form Europe's largest carrier (30/09/2003)
PARIS (AFP) Air France and KLM agreed to a French takeover of the Dutch airline through a complex deal that will create a new giant in civil aviation.
The new group could become an even more formidable player in the sector if Itay's national carrier Alitalia makes good in its bid to join.
The proposed share-swap announced Tuesday would see the creation of a holding company, Air France-KLM, that would maintain the brand distinctions, hubs and flight networks of the two companies, the airlines said in a joint statement issued in Paris and Amsterdam.
Air France would hold 81 percent of the group, to be led by Air France chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta, with KLM owning the remaining 19 percent.
"We chose a very simple concept, one group, two airline companies," Spinetta told a press conference from Amstersdam.
On the Paris Bourse Air France shares lost 4.16 percent to finish at 13.12 euros as investors focused on the risks involved in the deal.
"It's a classic reaction," a dealer said. "The hunter goes down and the prey goes up.
"I think there will be a bit of volatility as the implications sink in. While it makes good strategic sense there is a high execution risk and that is reflected in the reaction of the share."
Dutch investors also reacted cautiously, with KLM's share price trailing Air France's indicative value in an exchange offer.
At the closing of the Amsterdam exchange KLM shares were up 12.63 percent from Monday at 13.47 euros after briefly rising twenty percent at the opening Tuesday.
But the share price lagged well behind the value of the exchange offer as calculated by Air France, around 16.74 euros per common share -- which would be a 40 percent rise compared to Monday's closing price of 11.96 euros.
The planned deal means in effect a privatization of Air France, in which the government holds a 54-percent stake. The French state's share would drop to 44 percent once KLM shareholders have exchanged their stock for new Air France shares.
Paris plans to further reduce its holding to "well under 20 percent," Transport Minister Gilles de Robien said later, according to a timetable that had not yet been fixed.
The Dutch government, which owns 14.1 percent of KLM, said Tuesday it had approved the Air France takeover.
KLM, which has struggled to find a European partner for many years, saw sales and its share price drop substantially in the past two years owing to a worldwide slump in the aviation industry, caused partly by the September 11 attacks.
The new Air France-KLM would rank first in the world in terms of sales and third in terms of traffic, just behind American Airlines and United Airlines, Spinetta said.
Responding to concerns about job cuts, Spinetta said: "Maybe we will have to restructure, certainly we have (to), but we have no layoff plan."
At KLM, the workforce would be reduced as employees who retired were not replaced, according to chairman Leo van Wijk.
Dutch unions said Tuesday they would nonetheless scrutinize details of the proposed alliance to determine if KLM's promise that no more jobs will be cut holds true.
Air France unions, most of which oppose the privatization of the carrier, were likewise wary.
"We know few things about the plan and that is what bothers us the most," said Francois Cabrera, secretary general of the CFDT union.
Union leaders made it clear that Spinetta's assurances did little to assuage their anxieties about the future job picture at the airline.
In Brussels, the European Commission said it too would examine the arrangement for breaches of European Union competition law.
Last year, the French and Dutch carriers posted combined sales of 19.2 billion euros, with a workforce of 106,000 operating a fleet of 540 planes serving 226 destinations.
Initially, the Air France-KLM holding is to hold 49 percent of voting rights in the KLM unit, with the remaining 51 percent shared by two Dutch foundations and the state.
That structure is designed to preserve KLM's international landing rights and protect the future of Amsterdam-Schiphol airport, a key consideration for the Dutch state.
Air France's offer for KLM shares values the Dutch airline at 784 million euros (911 million dollars), under a share offer that is to be signed October 15.
Air France has sought listings for the new group on the Paris, Amsterdam, and New York stock exchanges.
In London, civil aviation analysts said passengers were unlikely to see any dramatic changes to routes and fares because of the KLM-Air France deal.
"Customers won't notice much effect in the near future because the airlines will continue to operate as they have been up until now," said Alexander Campbell, business editor of Flight International, an industry weekly.
"I wouldn't expect to see major changes in the routes" serviced by Air France and KLM over the next six to 12 months, he told AFP.
©AFP
PARIS (AFP) Air France and KLM agreed to a French takeover of the Dutch airline through a complex deal that will create a new giant in civil aviation.
The new group could become an even more formidable player in the sector if Itay's national carrier Alitalia makes good in its bid to join.
The proposed share-swap announced Tuesday would see the creation of a holding company, Air France-KLM, that would maintain the brand distinctions, hubs and flight networks of the two companies, the airlines said in a joint statement issued in Paris and Amsterdam.
Air France would hold 81 percent of the group, to be led by Air France chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta, with KLM owning the remaining 19 percent.
"We chose a very simple concept, one group, two airline companies," Spinetta told a press conference from Amstersdam.
On the Paris Bourse Air France shares lost 4.16 percent to finish at 13.12 euros as investors focused on the risks involved in the deal.
"It's a classic reaction," a dealer said. "The hunter goes down and the prey goes up.
"I think there will be a bit of volatility as the implications sink in. While it makes good strategic sense there is a high execution risk and that is reflected in the reaction of the share."
Dutch investors also reacted cautiously, with KLM's share price trailing Air France's indicative value in an exchange offer.
At the closing of the Amsterdam exchange KLM shares were up 12.63 percent from Monday at 13.47 euros after briefly rising twenty percent at the opening Tuesday.
But the share price lagged well behind the value of the exchange offer as calculated by Air France, around 16.74 euros per common share -- which would be a 40 percent rise compared to Monday's closing price of 11.96 euros.
The planned deal means in effect a privatization of Air France, in which the government holds a 54-percent stake. The French state's share would drop to 44 percent once KLM shareholders have exchanged their stock for new Air France shares.
Paris plans to further reduce its holding to "well under 20 percent," Transport Minister Gilles de Robien said later, according to a timetable that had not yet been fixed.
The Dutch government, which owns 14.1 percent of KLM, said Tuesday it had approved the Air France takeover.
KLM, which has struggled to find a European partner for many years, saw sales and its share price drop substantially in the past two years owing to a worldwide slump in the aviation industry, caused partly by the September 11 attacks.
The new Air France-KLM would rank first in the world in terms of sales and third in terms of traffic, just behind American Airlines and United Airlines, Spinetta said.
Responding to concerns about job cuts, Spinetta said: "Maybe we will have to restructure, certainly we have (to), but we have no layoff plan."
At KLM, the workforce would be reduced as employees who retired were not replaced, according to chairman Leo van Wijk.
Dutch unions said Tuesday they would nonetheless scrutinize details of the proposed alliance to determine if KLM's promise that no more jobs will be cut holds true.
Air France unions, most of which oppose the privatization of the carrier, were likewise wary.
"We know few things about the plan and that is what bothers us the most," said Francois Cabrera, secretary general of the CFDT union.
Union leaders made it clear that Spinetta's assurances did little to assuage their anxieties about the future job picture at the airline.
In Brussels, the European Commission said it too would examine the arrangement for breaches of European Union competition law.
Last year, the French and Dutch carriers posted combined sales of 19.2 billion euros, with a workforce of 106,000 operating a fleet of 540 planes serving 226 destinations.
Initially, the Air France-KLM holding is to hold 49 percent of voting rights in the KLM unit, with the remaining 51 percent shared by two Dutch foundations and the state.
That structure is designed to preserve KLM's international landing rights and protect the future of Amsterdam-Schiphol airport, a key consideration for the Dutch state.
Air France's offer for KLM shares values the Dutch airline at 784 million euros (911 million dollars), under a share offer that is to be signed October 15.
Air France has sought listings for the new group on the Paris, Amsterdam, and New York stock exchanges.
In London, civil aviation analysts said passengers were unlikely to see any dramatic changes to routes and fares because of the KLM-Air France deal.
"Customers won't notice much effect in the near future because the airlines will continue to operate as they have been up until now," said Alexander Campbell, business editor of Flight International, an industry weekly.
"I wouldn't expect to see major changes in the routes" serviced by Air France and KLM over the next six to 12 months, he told AFP.
©AFP
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Its a sell out
Ever since mister van Wijk took control, his primairy concern was to find a buyer for 'his' KLM. Whenever the deal did not herald a bigenough premium for this farmboy from the netherlands, the deal was off.
Internal support for him was finaly falling below a susstainable level so the deal with Air France was 'his' last resort.
Did you ever see a press meeting when such big news was presented as if it was a funeral? They where falling over eachother to explain why it was not such a bad deal, instead of celabrating this great 'merger'.
The same deal happend with Fokker, mis-management covered up theire inability to run a company by selling it, instead of restructuring. If there is any balls left over in the klm unions they will throw this deal out the window. Not that i say they have to toss the hook-up with Air France, no i think its a good partner. No just throw van Wijk back into the hole he crawled out of and set up a sensible deal. And for all i care they call the new company "
Pprune Air " I guess if nothing changes they will have to change the name of that KLM oriented group (wich calls itself a union) VNV into VFV dependance NL
I haven't seen many reactions from the Dutch pilots though!
this was my two peny's worth.
Pointer
Internal support for him was finaly falling below a susstainable level so the deal with Air France was 'his' last resort.
Did you ever see a press meeting when such big news was presented as if it was a funeral? They where falling over eachother to explain why it was not such a bad deal, instead of celabrating this great 'merger'.
The same deal happend with Fokker, mis-management covered up theire inability to run a company by selling it, instead of restructuring. If there is any balls left over in the klm unions they will throw this deal out the window. Not that i say they have to toss the hook-up with Air France, no i think its a good partner. No just throw van Wijk back into the hole he crawled out of and set up a sensible deal. And for all i care they call the new company "
Pprune Air " I guess if nothing changes they will have to change the name of that KLM oriented group (wich calls itself a union) VNV into VFV dependance NL
I haven't seen many reactions from the Dutch pilots though!
this was my two peny's worth.
Pointer
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Initially, the Air France-KLM holding is to hold 49 percent of voting rights in the KLM unit, with the remaining 51 percent shared by two Dutch foundations and the state.
Good-bye majoity in KLM shareholding ......good- bye KLM.
Good-bye majoity in KLM shareholding ......good- bye KLM.
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Ludo, your contention that AF is a 'fair' company may not hold true in all areas, especially that of CC recruitment.
But this thread is not about pointing fingers at AF, every airline has its problems.
As for the merger, I honestly think this IS the future...national carriers will cease to exist & will eventually be replaced by trans-European airlines....it's happened in other industries and is long overdue in this industry...the only reason these sort of mergers or "holding companies" have taken so long to come about is due to the outdated regulations that govern who can fly where and how frequently and under what ownership.
AF and KL have started the ball rolling.
But this thread is not about pointing fingers at AF, every airline has its problems.
As for the merger, I honestly think this IS the future...national carriers will cease to exist & will eventually be replaced by trans-European airlines....it's happened in other industries and is long overdue in this industry...the only reason these sort of mergers or "holding companies" have taken so long to come about is due to the outdated regulations that govern who can fly where and how frequently and under what ownership.
AF and KL have started the ball rolling.
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Smell The Coffee,
You are right on the money. Expect much more consolidation as ownership laws are relaxed and open skies moves forwards.
Being large allows an airline to negotiate better prices on just about everything (especially new hulls). It makes sense if the complexibility can be managed effectively and it is necessary for Europe to consolidate to compete effectively with the U.S. airlines.
What's next then? BA / Lufthansa??
You are right on the money. Expect much more consolidation as ownership laws are relaxed and open skies moves forwards.
Being large allows an airline to negotiate better prices on just about everything (especially new hulls). It makes sense if the complexibility can be managed effectively and it is necessary for Europe to consolidate to compete effectively with the U.S. airlines.
What's next then? BA / Lufthansa??
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my two cents
Well here is one KLM pilot. Never nice to see your company being sold off. BUT I think most of us are realistic enough to realize that KLM’s time as an independent company was coming to an end. I never got the sense that KLM was in imminent risk of collapse (like some people here are suggesting). Our cash position, and cash flow were nowhere near critical. The huge loss that we suffered last year was largely due to exceptional items like our payout to Alitalia (280 million Euros), and the write-down of our Boeing 747-200/300 fleet to zero (69 million Euros).
Nevertheless the industry has been in a state of constant change for more than two decades now. The USA landscape changed drastically after deregulation in 1978, basically leaving three strategic groupings anno 2003. It is only logical that Europe will head in the same direction. The smaller airlines have a choice to align themselves with a larger partner or being marginalized. I agree that there is a large risk in joining with a larger rival and being marginalized anyway.
I am pleased with the choice of Air France. The two operations have a lot of synergies that can be had. Our networks are absolutely complementary and we control two strategic assets in CDG, and AMS. I also realize that 80% of mergers (take-overs) fail to increase value for all concerned, but there is no reward without risk. I strongly believe that the brand name of KLM will remain for the foreseeable future. I can’t think of a reason to get rid of it. We will be joining Skyteam. Passengers are already used to flying different carriers during a journey, and the branding of Skyteam is what is more important. I think in the future these large alliances will be much like General Motors is now; a conglomerate containing different brands. This is but the first step.
Like my new boss Mr. Spinetta said this one new holding company will contain two brands serving three strategic businesses. Integration at the operational level is something that is not even being talked about at the moment, and I don’t foresee that happening in the short to medium term. This is not a merger along the lines of the Anglo-Saxon model. We are not being swallowed up, digested and sh.t out. There is no talk of seniority integration at all. If that comes to pass it is still many years away.
Our management has been in this state of mind (consolidation) since the mid-eighties. I remember being present at a presentation by our former CEO (Drs. P. Bouw, now heading the board at SWISS) in which he set out his vision on the future of the airline industry (late eighties). He is not the best communicator but he is a visionary in regards to our business. Much of what he setout has come to pass. We will have to adjust and keep plugging away.
As far as being controlled by a French company goes; it is something that we Dutch will get used to, we don’t have a choice. I for one will give it my best shot, there is too much to gain and/or loose.
Regards, O.
Nevertheless the industry has been in a state of constant change for more than two decades now. The USA landscape changed drastically after deregulation in 1978, basically leaving three strategic groupings anno 2003. It is only logical that Europe will head in the same direction. The smaller airlines have a choice to align themselves with a larger partner or being marginalized. I agree that there is a large risk in joining with a larger rival and being marginalized anyway.
I am pleased with the choice of Air France. The two operations have a lot of synergies that can be had. Our networks are absolutely complementary and we control two strategic assets in CDG, and AMS. I also realize that 80% of mergers (take-overs) fail to increase value for all concerned, but there is no reward without risk. I strongly believe that the brand name of KLM will remain for the foreseeable future. I can’t think of a reason to get rid of it. We will be joining Skyteam. Passengers are already used to flying different carriers during a journey, and the branding of Skyteam is what is more important. I think in the future these large alliances will be much like General Motors is now; a conglomerate containing different brands. This is but the first step.
Like my new boss Mr. Spinetta said this one new holding company will contain two brands serving three strategic businesses. Integration at the operational level is something that is not even being talked about at the moment, and I don’t foresee that happening in the short to medium term. This is not a merger along the lines of the Anglo-Saxon model. We are not being swallowed up, digested and sh.t out. There is no talk of seniority integration at all. If that comes to pass it is still many years away.
Our management has been in this state of mind (consolidation) since the mid-eighties. I remember being present at a presentation by our former CEO (Drs. P. Bouw, now heading the board at SWISS) in which he set out his vision on the future of the airline industry (late eighties). He is not the best communicator but he is a visionary in regards to our business. Much of what he setout has come to pass. We will have to adjust and keep plugging away.
As far as being controlled by a French company goes; it is something that we Dutch will get used to, we don’t have a choice. I for one will give it my best shot, there is too much to gain and/or loose.
Regards, O.
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Had to get some info from KLM Operations this morning. Called them, and the phone was answered as follows:
"Operations, un instant s'il vous pla't"
So I waited, and when the guy came back on line, he laced his talk with all kinds of pseudo french expressions.
Humour a pretty good way of dealing with the new reality.
It seems the deal is done, and who knows where it will lead us.
Hopefully to a profit making company with full employment, fair deals for the employees, good career opportunities and excellent seamless service to our passengers.
One can but hope.
If Ludo & Wallabie are an indication of the goodwill and positive mentality present in the Air France community, at the very least, life on a crew-to-crew basis will be pleasant.
Let's plan that drink!
"Operations, un instant s'il vous pla't"
So I waited, and when the guy came back on line, he laced his talk with all kinds of pseudo french expressions.
Humour a pretty good way of dealing with the new reality.
It seems the deal is done, and who knows where it will lead us.
Hopefully to a profit making company with full employment, fair deals for the employees, good career opportunities and excellent seamless service to our passengers.
One can but hope.
If Ludo & Wallabie are an indication of the goodwill and positive mentality present in the Air France community, at the very least, life on a crew-to-crew basis will be pleasant.
Let's plan that drink!
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I agree with Otterman's point of view. As an Air UK pilot, KLM uk was formed, then merged with KLM Cityhopper and now, it would seem, merged with Air France, I am sort of getting used to change! This industry is fluid and I think if a (relatively) small player such as KLM are going to ultimately survive in this competitive environment, then these sorts of mergers are essential.
I gather that there were some long faces in the KLM camp yesterday by some. Possibly, they are suspicious but I say that they must encounter change if the KLM is to survive. We all know that KLM is a bureaucratic, employee laden company being strangled by the unions in much the same way that was happening in the UK before Maggie Thatcher nipped it in the bud in the early eighties and without some form of drastic change, it will not last into the next decade. Within the umbrella of the largest airline in Europe, maybe there will be a future for us all. Maybe even a GOOD future?
However, it was pleasant to hear several Dutchmen saying "Amsterdam bonjour," on the RT yesterday, and the ATC playing along. Very funny! At least these guys seem to recognise the need for change!
I gather that there were some long faces in the KLM camp yesterday by some. Possibly, they are suspicious but I say that they must encounter change if the KLM is to survive. We all know that KLM is a bureaucratic, employee laden company being strangled by the unions in much the same way that was happening in the UK before Maggie Thatcher nipped it in the bud in the early eighties and without some form of drastic change, it will not last into the next decade. Within the umbrella of the largest airline in Europe, maybe there will be a future for us all. Maybe even a GOOD future?
However, it was pleasant to hear several Dutchmen saying "Amsterdam bonjour," on the RT yesterday, and the ATC playing along. Very funny! At least these guys seem to recognise the need for change!
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Two companies , two work forces , one can not help but think about the old management ploy ... "Divide and Conquer". Play one work group against the other. The VNV has stepped up a league ......will they be up to it? Time will tell., But they had better change their game plan from past efforts.
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G'day Otterman, nice to meet you !
I have this very day enrolled into a Dutch course !
For one thing this thread seems to have been spared by our usual cheap tips givers or maybe is it that they've slit their wrists.
Anyone remotly supposing that the KML name would disapear needs to pour himself a straight Scoth RIGHT NOW !
You would have to be the twitt of this century to throw down the drain 80 + years of commercial aviation history, cuz, like it or not, people still fly a carrier and a name, specially when that old. It is a tremendous assett and AF knows it trust me.
That some Dutch worry is only too normal, I'd be worrying too.
Some people here, mostly ground, worry too fearing their jobs might disapear.
I understand the KLM Workers council who has a right of veto gave his thumb up to this, so it can't be all that bad.
As to my enthousiam or my colleagues, it is quite genuine and I'll tell you why, well my perception of it anyway.
We've come a long since 1993 and I'm not about to forget being stranded in Singapore because no aircraft was coming from Paris where " civil war " was waged on the tarmac right in front of the world eye's on CNN. Then came months / years of uncertainty, changes, being the laughing stock of the industry.
We've all worked our toush off to make this airline what it is today with flaws and all, but nevertheless a good one, and we've been blessed to have some inspired managers with ideas and most of all the belief that people do not accept changes if they are wrenched with fear. It is easy to chop off heads by the thousands but by the look on Mr Edd's face last summer, it didn't seem to work miracle. The British public got a taste of french chaos right on their doorstep.
KLM's choice to SIDE with us is in my view the recognition of this work and although having thousands of other interests in life apart from aviation.................it does make me a tad proud.
Good God, I'm getting all weepy and wetting myself.........;Got to sign off.
I have this very day enrolled into a Dutch course !
For one thing this thread seems to have been spared by our usual cheap tips givers or maybe is it that they've slit their wrists.
Anyone remotly supposing that the KML name would disapear needs to pour himself a straight Scoth RIGHT NOW !
You would have to be the twitt of this century to throw down the drain 80 + years of commercial aviation history, cuz, like it or not, people still fly a carrier and a name, specially when that old. It is a tremendous assett and AF knows it trust me.
That some Dutch worry is only too normal, I'd be worrying too.
Some people here, mostly ground, worry too fearing their jobs might disapear.
I understand the KLM Workers council who has a right of veto gave his thumb up to this, so it can't be all that bad.
As to my enthousiam or my colleagues, it is quite genuine and I'll tell you why, well my perception of it anyway.
We've come a long since 1993 and I'm not about to forget being stranded in Singapore because no aircraft was coming from Paris where " civil war " was waged on the tarmac right in front of the world eye's on CNN. Then came months / years of uncertainty, changes, being the laughing stock of the industry.
We've all worked our toush off to make this airline what it is today with flaws and all, but nevertheless a good one, and we've been blessed to have some inspired managers with ideas and most of all the belief that people do not accept changes if they are wrenched with fear. It is easy to chop off heads by the thousands but by the look on Mr Edd's face last summer, it didn't seem to work miracle. The British public got a taste of french chaos right on their doorstep.
KLM's choice to SIDE with us is in my view the recognition of this work and although having thousands of other interests in life apart from aviation.................it does make me a tad proud.
Good God, I'm getting all weepy and wetting myself.........;Got to sign off.
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Uhm... KLM's name won't dissapear? Aviation
history?? How about Pan Am? Plenty of history
there. And don't forget that they made a deal
about the name. Will be around for 5 years
and after that nobody knows.
Also there's one small problem with KLM's name
and that the word "royal" is in it. (That's the K for
non Dutch speakers). Due to law the royal bit has got
to go now (has happend before with Corus steel plant).
So it would now be LM ! The only one who can stop
the name change now is the queen. Have no idea what
she is going to do about it.
Rgds
history?? How about Pan Am? Plenty of history
there. And don't forget that they made a deal
about the name. Will be around for 5 years
and after that nobody knows.
Also there's one small problem with KLM's name
and that the word "royal" is in it. (That's the K for
non Dutch speakers). Due to law the royal bit has got
to go now (has happend before with Corus steel plant).
So it would now be LM ! The only one who can stop
the name change now is the queen. Have no idea what
she is going to do about it.
Rgds
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<<<
Uhm... KLM's name won't dissapear? Aviation
history?? How about Pan Am? Plenty of history
there. And don't forget that they made a deal
about the name. Will be around for 5 years
and after that nobody knows.
>>>
Well, Air France, I am pretty sure, said that UTA and Air Inter would survive when these airlines were taken over during the past 10 years. Yet where are they are ? Now, of course, the KLM deal is a cross-border operation, which makes the durability of KLM longer, but when the open skies agreements are in full force and ownership rules are fully relaxed, I wouldn't bet my bottom dollar on KLM surviving.
Uhm... KLM's name won't dissapear? Aviation
history?? How about Pan Am? Plenty of history
there. And don't forget that they made a deal
about the name. Will be around for 5 years
and after that nobody knows.
>>>
Well, Air France, I am pretty sure, said that UTA and Air Inter would survive when these airlines were taken over during the past 10 years. Yet where are they are ? Now, of course, the KLM deal is a cross-border operation, which makes the durability of KLM longer, but when the open skies agreements are in full force and ownership rules are fully relaxed, I wouldn't bet my bottom dollar on KLM surviving.
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As a forty someodd year old aviation buff and frequent SLF, I just this very morning found something ironic in a box from my parents- a 24-27 year-old self-made "airport loading gate diagram". I only mention it because of all the airlines listed that have "gone away" in the interim, either through mergers or failures, or both-
Braniff
TWA
Eastern
National
Piedmont
Oversea's National
Allegheny
Pan Am
Sabena
Swissair
That's just on my list from childhood.
It's sad to see KLM possibly go away...now to the real questions-
How will this impact the Skyteam or other alliances- will it be for better or worse!
Braniff
TWA
Eastern
National
Piedmont
Oversea's National
Allegheny
Pan Am
Sabena
Swissair
That's just on my list from childhood.
It's sad to see KLM possibly go away...now to the real questions-
How will this impact the Skyteam or other alliances- will it be for better or worse!
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wallabie
I suggest you stick to matters that you understand.
French chaos means thousands of workers causing mayhem by going on strike and thats not what happened at Heathrow, where a very small number of people decided to walk out unofficially.
And the dispute was not about job reductions.
If I were Mr Edd, as you put it, I'd be pleased with this outcome. BA can expect reduced competition from AMS and AF, who I believe are a strong airline, will have it's hands full with the fallout from the acquisition; that's no sideswipe at KLM, just a few grey hairs of experience from dealing with the aftermath of multinational acquisitions .... and if it is handled as a 'merger', then that will increase the workload and suit BA even more.
The British public got a taste of french chaos right on their doorstep
French chaos means thousands of workers causing mayhem by going on strike and thats not what happened at Heathrow, where a very small number of people decided to walk out unofficially.
And the dispute was not about job reductions.
If I were Mr Edd, as you put it, I'd be pleased with this outcome. BA can expect reduced competition from AMS and AF, who I believe are a strong airline, will have it's hands full with the fallout from the acquisition; that's no sideswipe at KLM, just a few grey hairs of experience from dealing with the aftermath of multinational acquisitions .... and if it is handled as a 'merger', then that will increase the workload and suit BA even more.
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AF/KL merger
Final 3 greens
Why the need to be so shi*ty?
I beg to propose that who better than a Frenchman knows about chaos mettled by the smallest possible number of workers going about a strike/stoppage/wildcat action (you name it).
And whether the BA action was not related to job reductions has no relevance here.
Finally if the merger makes Mr Edd happy,we should all celebrate it to-gether.
Regards.
Why the need to be so shi*ty?
I beg to propose that who better than a Frenchman knows about chaos mettled by the smallest possible number of workers going about a strike/stoppage/wildcat action (you name it).
And whether the BA action was not related to job reductions has no relevance here.
Finally if the merger makes Mr Edd happy,we should all celebrate it to-gether.
Regards.