Maybe GK (was he not fired from SAA years ago) should stick to making TV ads for the Automobile Association and GB should have stayed in the SAP or was he not wanted there either.

CFIT - EGPWS in Africa
 

Gentlemen,
After reading all 9 pages of interesting comments from you all on this, lets try apply the following evolutionary steps on a progressive level without emotions and personal vendettas and lets all work together to try avoid any future potential CFIT or MIDAIR (God forbid):

Let's take an "imaginary" flip into Africa (wherever you prefer) and lets switch a perfect sunny day, CAVOK, and within 30minutes it turns IMC, thunderstorms, turbulence AND you are in the descend into some non VOR/ILS strip and you know you have to land (for whatever reason), a/c below you at the aerodrome, no SSR, "broken" english from the Tower, AND finally, some high rise "rocks" hiding somewhere in the clouds.......

Now, your CRM takes effect, all your experience, your bravado and you know you are doing everything correct and you are now really working that seat of yours to get to the "numbers" on the runway... are you going to make it....??.....possibly not.... we are all humans and we do and always will make mistakes, BUT what can we do or use to assist us to reduce the risk we face:

- Friends, lets face it, EGPWS at that point in time is all that will assist you. Let's not kid ourselves..... to those of you that say no, good luck! To those that pause and think, let me explain further, EGPWS has saved many lives before (irrepective of crews reporting an event or not), I believe there are a few of you that have had the "privelage" to a "caution terrain" from a EGPWS when you did not expect it..... ?
- GWPS: be very careful as there are still many a/c flying today with "old" GPWS systems that WILL NOT AND WILL NEVER IN THE FUTURE give you predictive terrain warning as these systems DO NOT have internal databases that applies "forward looking" concepts such as EGPWS will.

-Is it possible that the operator of this fatal accident did not have EGPWS onboard, yes, it is possible and was he legally required to carry such system, no, he was not as EGPWS has not yet been mandated for ZS aircraft. Then the operator/owner cannot be blamed for this as if the legal requirement did not specify this, then let's not blame ANYONE or ANYBODY and lets rather ask, when can we fly in our aircraft with these systems fitted. Friends, EGPWS fitments is a small price to pay compared to the loss we have witnessed here again.

- Now, how many of you can say that " I have EGPWS with terrain display fitted in my a/c"..... ? If some of you are unfortunate enough to say NO, next time you get in your "office" think of of the crews that have sacrificed their lives for what.... so we can keep on tempting fate..... no boys and girls, lets get our aircraft owners, CAA's in Africa all to get these little systems onboard which becomes your next best friend besides your captain or co-pilot... In respect for this recent crew (AND pax), that lovely red a/c that found itself next to the rocks in George a few years ago (its crew AND pax), and all other still to come (whom will it be...anybody in this forum...) I hope not and although it is sad to read some strong ignorant and narrowminded comments about operators and all kinds of trivial horsepucky that had nothing to do with this accident, let's rather see who is NOT goind to die next of a possible CFIT. Let's evolve and be proactive. We pilots are suppose to be intellectually evolved, let's use it!!

To the crew of ZS-OLD, we thank you for your bravery and rest in peace friends. You were both excellent pilots and I hope we can use your sacrifice to good use and turn it into something we shall all be thankful and respectful for in the future....

Apollo 20

Apollo, I am afraid I dont agree with your post at all.

You said,

'Now, your CRM takes effect, all your experience, your bravado and you know you are doing everything correct and you are now really working that seat of yours to get to the "numbers" on the runway...'

Unfortunately, your statement is not correct, descending below the grid mora or MSA without visual contact with the ground is not correct, attempting an approach which you are not trained for or the plane is not equipped to do is not correct, and if the GPS approach was not being attempted then it was left to a Jungle Jepp approach is also not correct.

I dont know what happened in this particular case, but we have to accept the limited facts available to us.



1. Bad weather
2. Flight obviously below the grid mora /msa
3. Mountainous terrain below
4. The outcome.

The biggest unanswered question still remains, 'why not divert?'

That for me is the biggest mystery.

Your statement, ' and you know you have to land (for whatever reason)' is probably the most worrying and dangerous statement of all, because there should always be options, but at some point our decisions leave us with no options, and perhaps I have been lucky, but I dont think so, but I have never HAD to land with no other option like you say and I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of us haven't either.

If I recall correctly I don't think that ZS-OLD had GPWS on board.

I know of only 1 1900 in SA that has EGPWS.

As far as I know in SA if GPWS is installed onboard then it must be servicable. If the 1900 arrives without it installed I don't think there is a requirement in SA to install it.

Secondly EGPWS relies on a Database of airfields. Many of the airfields operated into in Africa are not in the database. Hence the aircraft have to operate into some of these fields with terrain inhibit on to avoid nuisance warnings.

Thirdly if ZS-OLD had the gear down the only warnings they may have got if GPWS was installed would have been "Sink Rate" or "Too Low Flap".

Sadly if a 1900 is operating in that area GPWS should be a serious must have. But then comes commercial pressures to get the first available aircraft out on the contract asap etc etc

Shut up, Gringo!
 

We have EGPWS but operate to strips not in the database, when it ends up inhibited just when you might need it most!

There is no system available or dreamt of that can prevent this sort of accident, in my opinion.

Anyone else remember the story about "Shut up, Gringo!"? Some Spanish-speaking airliner crew called their GPWS "Gringo" because the warnings came in English. So one day it was saying, "Pull UP! Pull UP!" with the crew saying, "Shut up, Gringo!" until the CVR recording suddenly stopped with the sound of an impact!

Given that I am still wasting oxygen I haven't been quite where this accident crew ended up but I have been very, very close, as have many of us who fly in Africa. There's not much point to getting into a huge bitch-fest trying to second-guess or else defend the crew when a CFIT is pretty obviously some sort of big but unrepeatable mistake. Why not just take this as a strong hint to think, "Well, if it happened to those guys it could happen to me. Is there something in the way I operate that I might need to sit down and think about?"

Just off the top of my head I can think of three CFITs with people I knew personally. Two of them now get their mail delivered by groundhogs.

The third guy scattered a Cessna 441 across a maize field and lived to tell the tale. I flew with him for a while post-accident trying to get him back up to speed but he was always kind of a nervous pilot...

Who needs EGPWS when you have grid moras?

Goffel, I also work for the CAA. Although we do not always agree with our fellow colleagues, you should not be mud slinging them on pprune. You yourself are an embarrassment to the CAA. If you think you are so highly sought after in the industry, maybe you should pack your bags and leave. We won't miss you.....

Ok, so as a man of truth and integrity you chose to take issue with him on pprune yourself. Um...is it just me or is there an irony here? Fool!

Egpws-cfit
 

Gents
I value all your inputs on the EGPWS/CFIT issues here, but I need to clarify something that some of us do get confused when activating the TERR INHBT function on EGPWS systems.
1) yes, the EGPWS is in demand of the internal database which includes runways of a certain lenght and longer. I agree, many African strips are not in these databases at all, BUT it does not reduce the majority of the effective use of EGPWS. Terrain inhibit should only be activated when approaching a strip not recognised in the database, where it shall inhibit certain "modes" such as glideslope warnings, BUT still renders it usefull for altitude call outs (incl minimums), if it doesn't there is a problem with the sytem that needs investigation.
2) Quite a few CFIT events in Africa (excl the russian a/c), occured in the mountains and not on long final, etc. , where as the saying goes "mountains dont' move" so your EGPWS with it's internal TERRAIN database will be your "next best friend" when you cannot see those rocks! Offcourse, there is no point in activating TERR INHBT well before you know you are establised on final (below 1000ft AGL), because if you "klap the rocks" and you had EGPWS fitted, the 1st thing I would look for (if I was an investigator) is to find the TERR INHBT switch...... so be careful when activating that little switch...
3) Chucks, I appreciate your pro approach on your post, and yes I agree that there is no "100% fail safe" system, but EGPWS surely helps. I don't know how many of you have the privelage of flying in a/c that has TERRAIN MAP DISPLAY on their MFD's / EFIS but I believe they do come in quite handy.
4) Ir Pirate, good luck, no offence, but I really hope you can get acqainted with EGPWS. You'll think twice after having flown with it....
5) South Coast, I appreciate and respect your view and although I agree 100% with the divert option, we should still factor for the "what if" there is some reason you couldn't..... your under pressure, would you not agree that EGPWS would be "must have" in such an event...?

Guys, all I am trying to do is share the "human demand" we have to consider for allowing systems to HELP us when we need it, hence, my passion for EGPWS. It's a bit like ACAS II, "lets hope I never get that RA in IMC, but if I do, I will surely react to it!!"

Apollo 20

I think we all agree EGPWS is a good tool, I dont think that is in question.

However, barring catastrophic failure of/to the airframe, I struggle to understand the decision making in going into a field with no published approach that is of use to a non-rnav/gps approach equipped plane, in bad weather and in mountainous terrain.

I think it is just too vague to use the, 'but what if...' scenario.

As I said above, barring catastrophic failure to the airframe, there should always be options available.

Does anyone know any new facts?

To All
 

After spending some time pondering about this, there is one thing that is trying to come out in this thread, we all need to stand on our ground before we are put into it :(. Not to say that the crew of ZS-OLD didn't, we can't say anything as to what happend in the cockpit or what led up to the event untill all info is brought to light if there is anything to be brought out. My deepest thoughts go out to those who went west.
More and more companys are looking at pilots as bus drivers and this has to stop. The mind set grows as more and more as flights are successful and you return to your beds to start another flight the next day. While Managment counts the money and get pats on the backs for a job well done. Then the cycle starts all over again. I have had many days where not just myself but other pilots are being told to launch by some one who has not been there or done that, remember we as pilots have all bought the T-shirt and are still wearing it. Do you really want to be buried in it? Grant it that there are pilots that will fly with the mentallity that nothing is going to happen :=. Well things do and this set off everyone into speculating and mud slinging. lets take a back seat look at this.
The managment have to be tought that what we do is inharently dangerous and we are trained as risk and emergency managers. We as pilots have to tell them that there is reasons to not take a flight or not.
It really boils down to how much $$$ can be made using us as the "bus driver". When a bus breaks down, pull to the side of the road and call road service. Everyone can understand what I am talking about and I hope that those that don't check yourself into a mental hospital if you fly.
About those Gwiz equipment that everyone is talking about, when flying the US Vans for ASI there was no TWAS. When in the US all of them are installed and yes they have saved lives including mine. Let alone the TCAS. There are a lot of wonderful tools out there but the owner/operators of them refuse to install them due to cost of product, maintence and God forbid the trainging. Right now with the company I fly with are aircraft are capable of GPS approaches but the companys feels that four or five hours of trianing for use is too much to spend:ouch:.
If you all want to see the cool things that are coming out and of course are high in the $$$ range but would most likely keeps us safe and alive check out YouTube - Night Landing in Aspen Colorado. This little guy can not only see in the dark but also threw the clouds. In Congo, a must. But lets see how long it would take.
V1...Ooops. I have to hand it to you that your words of wisdom is something that we need to find ourselves and practice it and fine tune it to bring us back to our familys.
My final thought, lets not be seen as bus drivers but as professional pilots who know when to launch and when to sit together. When devided we fall, together we stand. Best wishes and best of luck to all the bros I miss in the deep dark DRC.

HSIop

Apollo, with all due respect, what I am getting at, is that if this accident was purely a case of CFIT (we haven't quite got to the bottom of it all be honest) then the major errors in judgement took place well before the moment of impact. Something as simple as a grid mora / msa should still stand as the basic sacrosanct limitation of your descent.

That said, I too have decended below MSA, due to ops pressures etc ( young dumb and...) , and the last time I ever did that, I popped out of the cloud in a valley, with hilltops hidden in the clouds all around me. I was lucky - thats all.

I have since flown with EGPWS quite regularly, and of course understand its merits and place in the modern cockpit. However, my point is that millions of flights before the days of EGPWS could be concluded safely, with the use of simple tools, such as MSA and MORAs. But thats at the most simplistic level of viewing this accident.

Missing wing engine section
 

Has the missing engine and wing section been located yet ?.

I must have missed that one... wasn't aware that this was the case...
If the loss of the a/c was a result of in-flight break up due to inadvertant entry into convective weather the discussion of CFIT and staying above the published MSA becomes somewhat redundant. Without wishing to pre-empt any findings by the investigators it would not be an outrageous surmise given the weather in the area at the time to consider that the poor guys got trapped in an area of T/storms that proved impossible to survive. And for those out there that consider weather radar to be a guarantee of avoiding storm cells... it isn't... and it can be extremely difficult to interpret the display accurately in mountainous terrain..

I stand to be crrected here but wasn't ZS-OLD the ex Rossair machine that got the spar bent/damaged by the boys rolling it on the way back from contract somewhere?

Rolling OLD
 

Little Mo,

I never heard about that one. Tell us more. It might be relevant

Check Youtube B1900

Didn't Rossair have a Twotter Reg ZS-OLD?

Affirm, we used to fly a Twin Otter in the Sreamline days owned by Sreamline ZS-OLD.
Was then sold to Ross Air.

Who needs EGWPS?
 

Who needs EGWPS if you fly like this? It calls for an accident to happen!

YouTube - Beech 1900 in Africa

Beech aerodynamic design changes now. They use a lot of rivets in the nose cone, not very clean is it?

YouTube - Don't try this at home

wonder if that one is actually a fake ?

I can't believe people would actually have the guts to do this... looks like they have not done this for the first time.

If it was the airframe that got our buddies down - then it was just a question of time unless detected in an airframe inspection.

Point was....is that a 1900?
Very crude nose cone, not, I think, the same as B200?

If you watch on the fly by, when you get the side view of the plane, its too short to be a B1900, add to that the crude nose cone...I'm thinking not - my vote goes to a B200

Missing airframe parts
 

Mungo, according to my employer who spoke with an AirServ engineer, there is a wing and engine unaccounted for ?. If this is the case, could it not indicate that the engine was at max power when the wing separated, enabling it to travel some considerable distance from the hull's point of impact ?. How did the aircraft strike the terrain ?. I think there are so many questions that need to be explored further.

We'll need to wait and see where the missing bits are found.. if they're ever found.

Nothing is missing.
 

Hi Coleman and others.
Nothing is missing....no matter what you get told.

Goffel.

Missing parts
 

Goffel,

Thanks for the update. Any info on how the aircraft actually struck the terrain. I am hearing the belly took most of the impact, but that the tail struck first. If this is at all true, is it possible they were at max power in a climb configuration ?. (i.e. caught in a very severe down draft).

Bus drivers
 

Yup-I agree,
However I say that we only have ourselves to blame.
When the weather is not right-do not go!
When someone says we must go now-do not go!
When you have reservations about a/c serviceability-do not go!
If in doubt about the succesful completion of the flight-do not go!
Why am I paid so much(sic)? To know when to say NO! NO! NO!
I am not paid to fly-I rather think that I am paid to KNOW when not to fly. Anyone can fly, it's being able to say NO! that sets the men apart from the boys. That way the company gets to keep their crew,pax and lo and behold "THE AIRPLANE!!!"
Fly safely people, you have all worked and continue to work extremely hard for your licence-don't throw it all away to try and please some desk jockey.
Happy and SAFE flying to all,
ArendIII.:)

ARENDIII, you said it!!!!! I couldn't agree more! I think Capt's and F/O's need to be more aware when to say NO, regardless of who they work for.

:ok: Great post :D :D

Any new information? Several months have now passed.

Nope - no news.

NTSB have released a preliminary report - no major updates, except that fire is mentioned.

CFIT seems to have been eliminated as a causal factor.

Here is the URL to the American NTSB factual report: click here.

Well whoever Dennis Jones is I don't envy him his task of working with the 'Ministry of Transport' of the DRC :/

where did you find that CFIT was eliminated as a causal factor?
 

where did you find that CFIT was eliminated as a causal factor?

Grieved Dad of Deseaded Pilot - Rudi Knoetze
 

My son Rudi Knoetze was killed in an airplane crash in the Democratic Republic of the Congo on the 1st September 2008. They were flying humanitarian aiders. The incident was covered in several newspapers and on radio in South Africa. I waited three days for the forces to remove his body from the mountain. I waited another week for his body to arrive in South Africa. The information received was that the whether was bad and that the pilots flew into a mountain. This aircraft is operated by two pilots and they flew a leg at a time. By this I mean that my son, who was also a captain on this aircraft (both pilots were captains), flew from Goma to Kisangani. At the time of the accident the other pilot (Ronnie) flew from Kisangani to Bukavu and 15km before the airport, this accident occurred.

Following from this, I have done the following:

• Obtained photos regarding the accident and studied them. I must also mention that I am not an aviation expert but, work in the Forensic Department of a large corporate institution, and the photos did not tell the same story.
• Appointed an investigator, who was at the scene of the accident to do me a report (His report reflected that there was either an explosion on board or that they were shot down by missile.
• Contacted the NTSB (Dennis Jones) in America in order to get clarity on what happened and requested the report on the black box (Flight Data Recorder) – I was told to work through the official channels and to request the South African Embassy to get the information from the Democratic Republic of the Congo.
• I contacted the United Nations, as 15 passengers were also killed, most of them being UN soldiers – I was told that they are not doing an investigation, which I find to be very strange.
• My son was contracted by CEMAIR, a company at Lanseria airport and they then hired the aircraft and crew to Air Serv in America. (Wet Lease) I contacted Air Serv in order to find out if they are conducting an investigation. I was told that they are also not conducting an investigation. This is also very strange to me as they were the operating company within the DRC. I obtained the contract between the Cemair and Air Serv together with the operating certificates.
• I contacted Mr. Mamoepa’s office on the 18th May 2009 and asked them for assistance. I forwarded a follow up e-mail on 2nd June 2009 and did not receive any assistance, except for acknowledgment of receipt (See e-mails below) I e-mailed his office again on the 6th July 2009 and again got conformation that the South African Embassy in Kinshasa requested the information. (See e-mail below) I have again forwarded e-mails on 7th and 8th September, but to no avail.
• I established that the aircraft voice cockpit recorder was removed and noticed from the photos that it was blanked off. However, I was told by Cemair that it was destroyed during the accident.
• I visited Civil Aviation South Africa and asked them why they did not get involve. I was told that it was not worthwhile to investigate, as all the passengers on board were dead and that it was not worthwhile to send anybody from there authority to do an investigation. It was also mentioned to me that charity begins at home at that a number of reports were outstanding. After begging them to get me the necessary information, they drew up a letter, which I had translated to French, and they forward this letter to the DRC, requesting information. They also promised me that if the information is not forthcoming, that they would send a representative to the DRC to get the information. This was only empty promises, as they promised to visit the DRC during July, again during September, but this never materializes. I find it very strange that they did not get involve from the beginning and is still reluctant to get involve 10 months later.
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']I appointed a second investigator to investigate the circumstances. A lot of facts were established by him, but he cannot conclude his investigation without the co-ordinates, the weather conditions (which I might receive at a cost) and most importantly the report/information on the flight data recorder.

To conclude and in view of all the facts above, I am desperate to get the report on the black box (flight data recorder information) and the report from the DRC, and will not be able to get closure on my sons death unless I know what happened. My frustration is that my son has been dead for more than a year and I cannot get the information needed. Although I followed all the official channels I also do not get any assistance from Civil Aviation South Africa, nor from the South African Embassy. I have attached some of the e-mails and will forward you the report issued by the investigator (first one) appointed by me.

Any Suggestions?????

Johan Knoetze

First of all give you the pesame by the death of your son. I'm sorry.

About you problem I can't help you. I was in Congo flying in 2007 and DRC civil aviation can't do a investigation as a normal country.

Bukavu is a dangerous airport I was flying in Bravo Air Congo and in two months Bravo had 3 minor incidents and one peasant killed.

Also Bukavu is in a troubled area, "men of the war" want to dominate mineral traffic so "why not think that was shut down?

Is very easy recognize a UN airplane, all white with big black letter "UN".

I can't undertand that no body want to discover what happened. Conspiration? a CVR distroyed? Beech as manufacturer does'nt want discover what happened, and the airline? Very extrange.

Good Luck, I hope you can discover the true in memory of your son.

Why would anyone waste an expensive asset like a MANPAD on a low value target like a Papa Charlie full of nobodies?


Supposition by unqualified people will merely lead to confusion. Just looking at pictures will not tell you if explosive residue is present which is about the only really conclusive way of determining if an IED or a MANPAD was used. Did your investigator have wreckage analysed by a reputable lab for these traces?


Try Occam's Razor on this one.