Cape Flying Services...south Africa
 

hello there

Did you have a bad experience at Cape Flying Services George or with its UK agent Mr Naunton Pugh ?

Please send me your stories, I have had a very bad experience and my advice to you if you are considering going there for any reason...think again ! because it is too good to be true.

Don't get stung like many others !!!


Interested in my story ? send me your email address

regards


Sandy

You're playing it very close to the line Sandy - especially for a 2nd post. Please email details of your experience and based on that we'll review as to the advisability of the continued presence of this thread. I'll leave it here, on the expectation that your email will be sent.

Thanks. 4HP

another person who has had an 'experience' at that place.
4 holer, i could name several names with the same story about that place, all friends, and i was also there and witnessed what happened to others as well as myself....


be careful when considering this school!

CAPE FLYING SERVICES GEORGE SA
 

4 holer

Many thanks for the response to the query

I am sure that given the time there will be a lot of people "who will come out of the woodwork" about this school

My objectives are two fold, firstly, warning about this school and hopefully this is the platform to air these concerns, people to be careful when considering it for flight training and secondly if people are prepared to tell their "first hand" account of their story via email to me maybe we can stop this "burning" of well earned hard cash by people with an interest in furthering their aviation career, lets face it I just got burned for nearly £5000.00(3 weeks trip to South Africa and "training"), understanding and reasonable people would not be very happy about that.

my email address is [email protected]

feel free to email me and I will supply further details of my experiences or should it be aired on this forum

please advise

sandy

Personnaly (AND I DID SAY PERSONALLY) I feel it must be aired on this thread. If it is against the rules 4HP I understand but surely we can all make up our own minds.

I am in the process off registering my son with a FLYING SCHOOL and I might change my mind about a few things.

Cheers and good luck,

Gunnss

sanjo69 - mate, I've PM'ed you and no reply. Put your money where your mouth is or shut it

Hi
Rather than replying to Sandy's post, I suggest that anyone who wants to hear it "from the horses mouth" . should phone the following number SA 44 8769114. Its the phone located in our Club House and will be answered by the closest student.


Gerald Todd

Sandy and CFS
 

Lo Boys and gals ... yes your favourite is back ... :yuk:

No more mom and kids .. "...daddy give us as much attention as you give the computer .." ... eischh I miss SA already.

Ok where are we ... Sandy ... Sandy (thought you where female mate ) .. Ok I was at CFS and was VERY impressed !

I asked students about Sandy and I did not get a good response. I asked about the school and I got a very good response. So I am sure there are 2 sides to a story. CFI - CFS we have not met - sad we did not as we could have shared a few urgent thoughts but just to let you know after looking at most of the flying schools in the Cape I think I have chosen CFS to train my kid to PPL and possibly CPL.

So Sandy jump out of the closet mate ( I have mailed you and asked for your comments and had NO response) - about a month ago ....

Cheers and thanks for giving this thread some air 4HP :ok:

CAPE FLYING SERVICES GEORGE SA
 

Cape Flying Services (Europe)

Firstly may I take this opportunity in thanking all those people who have taken the time to visit, add comments. Email and reply to this “thread” regarding the above flying school

It is quite clear there are a number of you who have a special interest in this “bad experience” of mine for whatever reason and I shall try to keep you informed as it develops. I am not a vindictive person and don’t wish to use this site to “throw mud” and falsely accuse anyone of any wrong doing.

This is a true and physical life experience of someone, not by “word or mouth”. Perhaps; I am an irrelevant person, who wanted to achieve his lifetime aviation goal of a PPL (A). This person could be you, your daughter, son, indeed, could be anyone out there right now! Remember the decisions you had to make when you where starting out when you wanted to learn how to fly! And you may be considering the options in how to achieve this goal for that person at this moment.

Naunton Pugh, based in the UK and by his own words”looks after the interest of the Cape Flying Services within the UK and Europe”, the school being based in George, South Africa sold myself an all inclusive residential package of a PPL course for £2895.00, that is, 25hours dual, 15 hours solo and a further 5 hours solo or simulator (as advertised). This price included essentially everything except medical and food during my visit to South Africa. The correspondence I have also indicate that the course “can” be completed “from scratch” within my allocated time in South Africa i.e.: 30th March till 18th April 2003 provided I get my head around the ground school subjects. I feverishly studied to get obtain as much knowledge, with the help of Trevor Thom books, part 1- 7, prior to departure.

Upon arrival in South Africa, I was escorted to my “crew house” accommodation (as not advertised) that happened to be a “student residence” an excuse need I say any more but a noisy, drugs infested block of flats that clearly was inappropriate for a person wishing to become a pilot. It was indicated that this residence was only intended to be used for “a few days”. Perhaps, a sign of an over subscribed flying school. Within a few days of arrival the school by their own admission indicated they had cancelled the lease upon “signing” realising it was obviously inappropriate and further added there would be alternative and more appropriate accommodation available around the 11th or 14th April. The so called PPL and CPL houses where overcrowded with students at different levels of training. Sometime around Thursday 10th April, I was offered a room at one of the crew houses and declined for legitimate reasons.

The main objective of the trip was to obtain the PPL licence, therefore, minor “political” issues was to be tolerated by myself. However, one of the major causes of concern was that(as advertised)” for every 1 hour flying you will spend around 3 hours on ground school” I attended at most 3 hours ground school for the duration of my time there. As ground school for PPL was just non existent. My availability for lectures was without question.

Mr Gerald Todd, the Chief Flying Instructor, was seen on the first day and last day of my trip, hardly an advert for a personalised structured course (as advertised) Mr Todd on the last day of my trip infuriated me by his comments relating to Naunton Pugh, financial reconciliation and seemed to distance himself from the agent. I quickly realised that any “quibble” I had with any aspect of the course needed to be directed to Naunton Pugh, the agent, the person who sold the course.

The actual flying instruction at the school was carried out by dedicated, loyal and hardworking professional instructors; indeed, by far the day to day running of the school is carried out by the instructors without any apparent input by “senior management” Unfortunately, my course was structured to “hour building” than “working to complete the PPL” I achieved solo status with a total of 33.5 hours dual and 1.6 hours solo, an achievement, however, far short of my target of completion with PPL licence and hours paid in advance to CFS. Mr Todd sings praise to this achievement but tends to forget that the 3 week period was to actually complete the course (as advertised). It is clear that there is a serious communication problem between Mr Todd and his agent relating to what is sold and what is actually provided or just that Mr Todd and Naunton Pugh thinks that “we are all a few cards short of a full deck” you decide!!!

There was a serious aviation incident that took place within the first ten days there that severely affected my ability to accept that this was a professional school with integrity. The aircraft serviceability is questionable, as I have personally experienced during my time, 4 breakdowns with my own trainer aircraft, arguably due to poor maintenance resulting in lost flying time.

To date the agent owes myself money for flying hours not taken (9.9 hours), overcharge on the invoice (£100.00), point blank refuses to discuss any issue raised in two detailed letters sent to him (22nd April: with “no constructive comment” and 2 May 2003: commented, “I have spoken to Gerald Todd, go ahead with anything you wish, we will defend very vigorously and you’ll lose”) and now threatens me with legal action (19th May 2003) for “libel and defamatory comments” , demanding an unreserved apology for comments made on this very website. Strangely, in this day of high level customer service focus, I have yet to receive a phone call from Naunton Pugh or Gerald Todd to discuss and sort out this matter of my dissatisfaction with the school and all relevant dealings since my return to the UK on 20th April 2003. I will refuse to back down; the facts are here and in my documentary proof. I am now suing Naunton Pugh for the full cost of my trip to South Africa, around £5000.00. These comments form just part of the main correspondence that has been sent to Naunton Pugh at Cape Flying Services (Europe) and Gerald Todd at Cape Flying Services, George, South Africa. The completion cost of my PPL will be around £2000.00 in the UK

The conclusion quite simply:
FACT, advertised ground school…answer non existent……WHY?
FACT, accommodation of poor quality and inappropriate…answer over subscribed flying school and not as advertised……WHY?
FACT, integrity of school…answer, compromised by handling of aircraft incident…..WHY?
FACT, aircraft serviceability…..answer, compromised
FACT, senior management problem handling….answer you decide!!!....WHY?
FACT, “the very best flight training you can get” (as advertised) …answer…… I am sure, most others are much better in South Africa.

So, my personal advice to you, if you are thinking about going to (worthwhile) South Africa for any kind of aviation experience, be extraordinarily vigilant, before you consider this school and includes dealings with Naunton Pugh (he either doesn’t know this is happening or condones it !)

It is highly unlikely that any further comment is forthcoming from me until the legal issue of full refund has been dealt with.


Thank You


Sandy Young

Thanks for putting your full story on the thread Sandy. Good post. Needless to say, I'm sure that Cape Flying Services will have their own version of events. And in that, they are more than welcome to post their version here; in fact I would encourage it. Your move to introduce legal proceedings does complicate the issue somewhat but in the interest of maintaining freedom of speech and allowing your post to act as an advice to other PPRuNers I have no problem keeping this thread going.

4HP

Why me ...
 

Oh no guys ... why me .... :{

W H Y M E

Ok ... I received both your PM's ... guys seriously I do not want to be the Horse Thief here.

My suggestion (it has worked before) asked Francois Marais and the Huey Story ...

Sandy has made his point.
CFI CFS make your point on this forum - believe me it works !

Sandy will answer you back and you will answer him back and we will chirp in between and it might take 100 posts but I think you guys can sort things out before f...n lawyers make money out of one of you !

Sandy you are an elderly gentleman (see I was there) ;) and I am sure you do not need this cr@p in your life.

CFS has a name to protect and we can be judges and jury for you guys (I / ? we ) love it and have done this MANY times before ...

Shall we give it a try ?

Please ... :hmm:


PS: Sandy I clicked on your e-mail link the previous time and requested more info.
I did it again today - let us see if you get my mail.

CFI - Please mail me with all your details please as I have the task now of getting 6 oke's :} through you / 43 / whoever to PPL stage.

Cheers,

Gunnssss (Judge and Jury) :ouch:

I am not interested in holding a public debate on this forum. I have it on e-mail from Sandy that he would have been happy if he recieved the Bps 350 non refundable deposit back from Naunton Pugh. With afidavits from my staff and people on the same course, if Sandy wants to take this to court, Naunton Pugh will go in heavaly armed... The results of the claim will be posted here.

Sandy spent 15 days with Cape Flying Services, sucessfuly completed three exams and flew 36 odd hours, mostly dual. He was offered alternative accommodation, and even then we would have been happy to refund him the R35 per day he was paying for it. There are a number of very good places to stay in George.
The "serious incident" was a aircraft that went off the side of the runway onto the grass verge, there was no damage... At all! The relavent authorities where notified, however I was advised by the CAA that no incident report needed filing. The aircraft was flown back to George and the student has been given more dual instruction.

Regardless of whatever I write on this forum, like Sandy's post, it could be fact or fiction, as such, people who would like to find out the truth, should phone the number I posted above.

Gerald Todd

No desire to get into the particulars of this one but here are one or two points for any of you out there thinking of embarking on flying training:

1. Any school which can give you 36 hours flying in 15 days is doing VERY well.

2. If you've never flown before, there is NO way ANYONE, least of all you, can predict how long it will take you to get a licence. Just because some people may have achieved a PPL in minimum hours in three weeks it doesn't mean you can. If you are determined to go abroad for only three weeks then do yourself a favour and take at least a couple of hours dual instruction at home before you go. It will give you some idea of your chances of completing in such a short time. At worst, it might show that you are NEVER capable of getting a licence. My view is that if it takes you more than 25 hours on a full-time course to go solo then you ought to think very hard about whether it's worth your while continuing.

3. How many times do people have to say this? DO NOT PAY THE FULL COURSE FEE UP FRONT!! Booking deposit, yes - and you should expect this to be non-refundable - but there is no need for companies to require full payment before you even get there.

I cant let Guns butt in here all by himself. besides he said there may, in the Future, going to be a Guns Junior as a Pilot........What is the world coming too.
Sounds like some unhappy folks at a Pilot Mill. Certainly two sides that will never agree. Sitting back I have seen a lot of folks who want to go from zero to ATP in a long weekend. It wont happen anytime soon. This guy is a zero timer and did 36 hours in 15 days. Thats a lot of time...In my non instructor mind a bit too much for one to really get any benefit other than Logged time. But his goal was to get this done ASAP.
I certainly think if he had taken a breather for a day or so and talked it over he would have walked out the door with a License instead of pissed off.
Accomodations?? Do you expect the Ritz?? Wait till one gets a job. Hell in Alaska I lived in a sod roofed hut for a while and that was WITH a license.
Im betting its a school atmosphere with a bunch of folks from different lifestyles....Not too distant from the Military where your all thrown in one basket and the ones who can handle it come out the other end as Pilots....
Total Immersion is sometimes the best way. You just have to go with the flow a bit more. Anyone can learn how to fly, I just prefer to fly with those who can deal with the stress.....
My Two Cents.

CAPE FLYING SERVICES GEORGE SA
 

Hello to all,

Many thanks for your comments and time taken to respond to this post.

Perhaps, a minority of you are missing the point here?

This complaint is not directed at Cape Flying Services George, but, Mr Naunton Pugh, trading as Cape Flying Services (Europe). This is probably the accepted NORMAL PRACTICE (answers some points) within this type of flying school or maybe even throughout Africa or even the world, who knows?

Yes, it was quite correct that my experience was essentially based from a virgin prospective (guys, remember what these are!) that I could be duped into thinking that an experienced UK based aviation agent/ expert of a reputable flying school based in South Africa could persuade an inexperienced virgin potential pilot into thinking that a PPL could be obtained within 3 weeks. These are the facts, no question about it; the documents are available for perusal. Let’s face it; will you accept some kind of advice from one kind of professional source or another in our lives, answer, YES, what is different about aviation issues?

I as guided by the agent who is based in Cambridge, UK, that is, Mr Naunton Pugh, who incidentally happens to be the editor for International Flight Training News, probably and more than likely more involved in aviation than it appears to be, i.e., IFTNEWS.COM. Surprisingly enough, promotes this school for aviation training, well let’s face it, as a virgin pilot, it was very convincing.

Based on the facts that was provided I studied my ground school prior to my departure to South Africa expecting to achieve my PPL within my time period of 30th March till 17th April (at least 18 days available flying time), a very achievable goal, as per supplied literature.

To date, Mr Pugh, the UK based Agent has refused to discuss any issue raised either on this forum, correspondence (60 pages) or anything else for that matter. Mr Todd (CFI-CFS) at Cape Flying Services George does not appear in the equation as the full package was discussed, negotiated and executed by Mr Pugh, who is based in the UK;

Does he operate on his own or with Cape Flying Services George blessing, who knows?

Nobody expects that an aviation license could be justifiably issued over a weekend of training and indeed any one who thinks so, perhaps, should be committed to one of those special places. As an aviation enthusiast it is reasonable to assume that the process of learning doesn’t stop, even, when a PPL is issued. The package as sold by Mr Pugh was inclusive of a reasonable amount of costs in pursuit of an achievable PPL within the period of availability.

To answer the comments of NorthSouth
1. I agree, 36 hours flying time from any school in 15 days is good, but only, as an hour building exercise. I was and available to fly in George for almost 18 days not for an “hour building exercise” but as a structured AND personal course to complete the PPL as was stated in the contract with CFS (Europe), from scratch that is Mr Pugh. This course was for at least 45 hours flying time over my period at CFS in George to complete the PPL.

2. The important issue to understand that Mr Pugh sold a course to be completed within the specified period, he is the professional with all the knowledge and experience of this school, aviation and it’s practical issues, I was being guided by a so called professional. I could have been told it takes infinity to achieve the goal of a PPL, I quite honestly did not know, I was advised by Mr Pugh and for all intense purposes was totally blind to the fact. My naive ness may astound you but the issue was very convincing. I am not normally duped into this sort of situation at all. It is reasonable to say that Mr Pugh was fully in control of the situation. My PPL will require about 12- 15 hours flying time to complete in the UK, at a cost of about £2000.00, includes exams, medical etc, etc. This additional time was not available whilst I was in South Africa and no doubting my ability this PPL would have been achievable with some hard work and availability of an additional 7 days or so. Bear in mind that the course was supposedly structured to meet my needs for completion within the specified period of availability as per the contract and to which Mr Pugh was fully aware.

With respect to exceeding 25 hours dual training prior to solo status is concerned and the concept that achieving PPL status may not be achievable is total and absolute nonsense. No doubt, many top quality pilots achieve this status in excess of this limit and therefore become safer and more competent pilots, in particular, in my case, over 40 years old. This is a proven fact to my understanding.

Whilst I don’t have an issue with any instructor in particular, the issue of this school’s structure should surely be taken into consideration with respect of student ability. That is, non existent lectures, poor quality aircraft and accommodation, over subscription of students and perhaps more importantly, a totally non existent customer service policy.


3. I am not exactly qualified to give potential pilots advice, but, I agree, with hindsight, extreme care should be taken before entering to any agreement and that extreme caution, in particular when this school is concerned and any dealings with Mr Pugh, should be exercised PRIOR to handing over any money prior to services being provided. In this case the original demand for money was pure coincidence that is amounted to the same as the deposit and upon further investigation an overcharge on the invoice was found.

I agree the policy of pay as you fly should be insisted. To my understanding and to my further investigation upon my arrival back in the UK it is an accepted practice to pay as you fly within the UK.


Many thanks for B Sousa comments and in response


4. I was in George for at least and available to fly 18 days in total.

5. The reason I am not (politely) happy with Mr Pugh (Cape Flying Services (Europe) the UK based agent for Cape Flying Services based in George is that he was fully aware of my availability to be in South Africa. I was under no illusion that a lot of hard work was required, indeed, as stressed by Mr Pugh the only reason, other than the gods, for my failure to achieve a PPL within the time period was my lack of ground school preparation other than this, my course would be structured to meet my needs. This was his advertised words. Strangely, all the response and defence comes from Cape Flying Services South Africa. This maybe the normal practice of this school and its UK agent.


6. With respect, there is going with the flow and drowning in the “rip off” culture and I am afraid to say the latter prevails. The course was paid in £ sterling in the UK and discussion in SA Rand at the school. To be informed by the school “principal” that the course fee was undercharged by the agent is totally unacceptable and at best insulting. I am trying hard to accept that SA people are decent folk and that aviation folk are of a calibre to be respected. If I wanted to or was expected to live in an igloo, mud hut or reside in my motor vehicle for 18 days then at least I would have expected to have been told this at the beginning. A hostel based in the “old days” of South Africa was not expected by myself and NOT EVEN by the principles of the school.

Having spent at least 12 good years of my life living in South Africa I did not expect the absolute failure of this school to meet my expectations in all it’s advertised departments. The school and it’s UK based agent, Mr Pugh has not realised the damage it has caused to South African aviation and it’s training facilities. Lets face it when you expect a level of service you are very disappointed in failure, likewise, I am with Mr Pugh.

I am not exactly impressed with the Cape Flying Service School, in particular, nor do I winge about every little thing that really winds me up but what I am really hacked off about is the package that was sold to me and no doubt many others by Mr Pugh, it’s UK agent. Needless to say, Mr Pugh can expect a summons through his letter box as I am suing him for the full amount of my South African trip, a total of about £5000.00.

I have also an independent “observation” report from a fellow student who attended the course at the same time and fully confirms the events in my claim. The complaint is not what was received but what was sold, the difference is enormous.

So perhaps, according to Mr Pugh, until we meet in the High Court.(UK highest court)

Regards

Sandy

Dear Sandy,
I think that you were mislead by Mr Plugh or by yourself to believe that you could do your PPL in 18 days. I think that it is practically impossible for any older than 18 year old youngster to learn up the required skills for PPL level in less than 6 weeks, MINIMUM. Unfortunately, older we get more difficult it will be to learn new tricks...and sometimes very difficult to accept...
I suggest that you accept that you were not able to learn fast enough and make a new trip with more time and enjoy the proper training without this kind of unrealistic time limits.
When I did my initial training we were using 4 months for the first 50 hours and I was 17! Sure sounded like there was lot of time wasted but it gave a good base for my future as a pilot. However, we were all able to solo under 10 hours!

Take your time and enjoy aviation and don´t waste your time and money in court rooms.
Best Regards,
Blues
:ok:

CAPE FLYING SERVICES GEORGE SA AND UK BASED AGENT MR NAUNTON PUGH
 

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT


As of 17th July 2003, Mr Naunton Pugh trading as, Cape Flying Services (Europe) the UK Cambridge based authorised Europe agent of Cape Flying Services based in George South Africa has been issued a Court Default Judgment in the Blackburn County Court UK (BB 301870 REFERS)

This successful claim for damages, included, the full costs of my course and travel expenses, resulting from my South African trip in April 2003, to attend a PPL course at CFS George. The course package was sold by Mr Pugh and was clearly provided not as advertised and was therefore misrepresented. The result of this action is that Mr Pugh is now personally responsible for this debt and until it is at least paid he may have great difficulty in obtaining future personal credit arrangements.

To my understanding Mr Pugh collects a so called “spotter commission” from the school when the student confirms the booking and then it appears he, as in my case, takes no further interest, irrespective what problems occur. The commission payment which is defined as a “non refundable deposit” in the course information is supplied by Mr Pugh. This practise is obviously wrong and unacceptable. Mr Pugh obviously has no method of verification what services are actually provided at the school or he merely condones whatever happens at the school by just collecting his commission and then rubs his hands of his responsibility.

Mr Pugh, indeed, as an experienced person within the aviation industry, should know better. Simply, he is the editor of the flight training magazine IFTNEWS.COM where he actively promotes aviation training worldwide, including this school. He is also known within the UK for various other aviation activities.

Arguably, moving on with my life will be easier once the full costs are received, however, further media coverage will continue to highlight this sort of unacceptable misrepresentation within the aviation industry and to help unsuspecting future aviation students from future parting with their hard earned money in the pursuit of their aviation dream.

Quite simply my advice to all prospective students:

DISCUSS, NEGOTIATE AND CONFIRM EVERY DETAIL WITH THE SCHOOL PRIOR TO SIGNING ANY CONTRACT.

DON’T PAY LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY UPFRONT, INSIST “PAY AS YOU FLY”

KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET FOR YOUR MONEY!

Regards and Best Wishes


Sandy Young

These comments are posted in the guest book of the Cape Flying Services website (www.flightschool.co.za) as I believe that it is in the public interest to take note and be aware of the situation. More than likely senior management of CFS will not want you to see them and may remove them when they become aware of the posting.

The posting of these comments or future reposting will be dated.

:ouch:

Congrats Sandy for starting something and actually finishing it.

I have also had some training done by CFS about 15 years back,but can only say good things as they went out of their way to help me as another school that I was at went down the tubes.

For that I say thank you Gerald and Chancey (instruct then).

Yes,a lot of us do get burnt by either a school or an operater and then we moan blue murder,but yet none of us have the gannonies to do something about it.

Sandy has.

How many times have we bitched about salaries,and there is none of us who can say we have not done that as the salaries for pilots as professional people are disgustingly low,no matter how many hours one has.
But yet we still carry on flying for the same companies as we all know that some 2000 hrs youngster will do the job for half the money.

Sandy,you winged as you felt you had a reason,went ahead and won your case.
For that I salute you.(I think they call it principles).:E

Well I am suprised. I know for a fact that as I write Naunton Pugh has no knowledge of this and I cant help but notice that he wasnt given the opportunity to represent himself. Its a pity that Sandy didnt try take us on, this evil use of the legal system to have somone else pay for your flight training should not be allowed. We have the facts on hand and the people who were involved. Naunton Pugh, sitting on the other side of the World, markets us in good faith and does not lie, given his position he cant afford to. Cape Flying Services could not have done more for Sandy in the time given. I suported Naunton Pugh in his decision not to refund Sandy's non refundable deposit, he had no right to it. Now because of my belief in the legal system and in whats right and wrong, it seems an injustice may have been done.

Today Sandy continues to harass Cape Flying Services by trying to add his nasty post onto our students web site www.commercialpilot.org He contacted the SACAA, who supports us as a highly reputable flying school that has been operating in excess of 25 years, and has used this medium to try and discredit us. Its time Cape Flying Services got involved :(

I promise you Goffel this man should not be congratulated.

Gerald Todd

Hi Gerald.

No I am not congratulating Sandy on his win over CFS,but over his beliefs.

I know that sounds double dutch,but as I said before I can only say good things about CFS as you helped me out when a certain school went loop de loop.(or the money went into the wrong pocket as the aeroplane was sold?).

What I am trying to put across is that so many of us bitch like stuffed hens but never do anything about it.

Whether Sandy was wrong or right is not an issue in what I am trying to say,but that he followed his beliefs,where so many of us bitch and do nothing about.

When I stayed in the digs,we had a double story house with a swimming pool and we were all transported to and from the house to the airport.(and for some of us dronkies from the train to home).
We also had a lot of ground school lectures and for some of the doff okes even extra lessons at no extra cost was provided at the house.
And you organised a lift to and from George to CT and back every w/e.(for free).

So you see I cannot say anything wrong about CFS.

It is unfortunate that Sandy is having a fight with your school or should I say one of your British agents and not one of the schools that actually deserve the fight.

Thanks.

CFI- CFS

It would be very easy to lose composure and fall into the points scoring scenario, but I think I have a little more intelligence and respect for this forum than to fall for the obvious temptation, however, I understand there may be a need to clarify certain points.

Naunton Pugh, Cape Flying Services including yourself or any other person you think may have had a vested interest has had more than enough time since my departure from South Africa in April this year to address any issue, justified or not and to deal with such issues in an appropriate and civilised manner. Indeed, I have in my possession a document dossier of about 60 pages of information, facts, correspondence, newspaper articles and other material relating to this whole sad affair.

The points of my case at this stage are not really relevant as you and Naunton Pugh clearly emphasised through the correspondence of one line responses to my comprehensive letters in April and May of this year. These letters have clearly put my points across but I was merely brushed aside as irrelevant. My personal meeting with you prior to leaving South Africa indicated a clear and dismissive attitude from yourself. Every reasonable effort was made by me to resolve the issue, through you personally and Naunton Pugh, as the person issuing the contract. Needless to say, all these efforts were made prior bringing this issue into the public domain.

Naunton Pugh was issued a warning on 26th June this year by the County Court that I wish to recover damages from him. He was sent the 60 page dossier and also given until 12th July 2003 to respond by issuing his defence. This date passed without a defence being entered and he was further issued a Default Judgment on 17th July 2003. He is/ was fully aware of the situation and was given the chance to come to court and argue his case; likewise I would have had the same opportunity. He chose to ignore the papers sent to him. This is the legal system in the UK that gives rights to persons who believe that they have been wronged by a person/ company who has supplied sub standard goods or services. My contract is with Naunton Pugh and thus my legal redress is with him, your authorised agent. Indeed, if the legal opportunities were with Cape Flying Services in George I would have without a shadow of doubt and using your words “taken you on” within the South African legal framework. Your terminology of the “evil use of the legal system” is at best insulting and derogatory to any civilised state.

We both live in a democracy where freedom of speech is upheld within the law. I chose; believe me, as a last resort the available legal system to redress the balance and for whatever arguable reason. Naunton Pugh had the chance to argue his point and did not choose to. I feel I have been treated unfairly by your organization and will use whatever legal means available to me to highlight this treatment and help to prevent further unsuspecting people from being unfairly treated, either by your organization or any other. Any issue I have mentioned in any media is not nasty, slanderous or libel but fact, including the Court Judgment against Naunton Pugh. It is not reasonable human behaviour to just accept that they have been wronged and just get on with it. I know there are other people out there who have had a great and worthwhile visit to your set up, however, there are other people just like me, but at least, I put my words to actions such as my strength of conviction. No doubt, over the past few months you have been putting your house in order, this is a positive situation arguably perhaps due to this issue being aired in open forums like this one.

Nice one sandy

I have seen a few people treated in a bad way by a flying school in SA, this should act as an inspiration to them. All too often people are promised the impossible to get them over to a school far away, only to find out it is impossible. And to be honest your situation was ludicrous, to be told you could get a PPL in 18 days beggars belief, I seem to remember the George weather being a bit unpredictable into the bargain. This agent obviously only cared about his commision. And to think he holds a 'respected' position in the flight training media. I sincerely hope this ruins him, it may make other 'agents' think twice before making wild promises.

Don't let this put you off South Africa
 

I just hope that a lot of prospective students read this public airing of dirty linen and then decide SA isn't the place for them. Its the nature of the world that these kind of disputes will occur in life and what saddens me at the end of the day is that the only winner is usually some shark of lawyer.


SA on the whole is a great place to learn to fly, the people are generally friendly and professional. CFS has been in business for years and you simply don't survive for years (as a private company) by shafting your clients. In Sandy's case may be CFS didn't quite perform to par but lets not tar flight training in SA with a negative brush.

I think George is on the whole a pretty decent environment to learn to fly. The town itself is dead if it's a party atmosphere you're looking for, but you've got Knysna and Plett to make up for it. It's not as windy as PE or as congested as CT. I'll admit that George has it's own weather (which has seen me spend a few unplanned nights in Oudtshoorn) but apart from that it's a decent place to learn to fly.

Sandy With your amount of life experience behind you I would have to believe that you were the author of your own problems. Surely no one could believe that getting any licence in such a short time span must be wishful thinking. An aptitude test would surely have been appropriate before committing that amount of funding up front. And taking 25 hours to solo would surely have shown up in any aptitude test that this was not a wise move.

Prospector

I have been following this thread with interest.
As a resident of both UK and RSA I must take exception of the phrase "evil use of the legal sytem". In both countries the system is not perfect, but in UK it is a hell of a lot more perfect than in RSA.
I have no idea of who is actually right or wrong in this case, but Sandy seems to have followed the the legal grievance pathway correctly.
Pugh appears to be a high profile figure so I don't see how he could "have no knowledge of this" and not put a defence up in court. A default judgement was granted.

Finally I must agree with Goffel & Guns. To all you Wannabees- RSA is a great place to start your flying. 80% of the pilots I employ have moved through the flying schools in RSA. Don't be put off by this (relatively minor) spat, but do do your homework before parting with cash.:ok:

Shame on you George Tower for your slanderous comments on George being a dead town. Don't you know about the army ladies? Or what about the Herolds Bay Hotel? Well it was lively 15 years ago....:}

Last Monday the Court threw out the above Judgment, as it was obtained illegally.

Ok, so who won?

No one yet, however, regardless of what the Court rules, Cape Flying Services will have gained nothing by this.

Gerald Todd

Judgment Hearing
 

I am surprised to see Mr Todd continuing to degrade the UK Court Sytem.

Let me explain the facts, On Monday 29th September 2003, Mr Pugh, the agent for CFS in the UK was sucessful in having the judgment set aside based on a technical "date of issue" point, it was not because it was issued illegally or that he doesnt have a case to answer but more perhaps a sign that the UK court system is more fairer contrary to some beliefs.

The full hearing is due to take place at the end of this month where both parties will be given the opportunity to present its case and leave the judge to make his final decision on the matter. Obviously this hearing will be time consuming, expensive and totally unecessary as in my opinion and to a greater extent very clear ( as day and night) that CFS (Europe) owes me money. The question is just how much!

As is well documented on this thread within this website this action had become necessary due to inability or willingness of Mr Pugh, either as an individual or joint with CFS, irrespective, and to resolve the matter.

As a further gesture of reconcilliation, Friday, Last week I have presented a fair and reasonable offer to Mr Pugh's lawyer, to resolve this issue thus preventing an expensive court hearing.

I am still awaiting a response from them, however, this case is still very much ongoing and very unfortunate for all concerned and at the end of it, to which I hope Mr Todd realises, there will be no winners !

regards

Sandy Young

Stay away of Gerald Todd, unless you can agree with him to '' Pay as you Fly ''. Don't pay CFS, or any other Flightschool for this matter, more than 2000 Rand in advance !!

If you pay him ( or them ) more, he (or they) got you by the balls (male students only !!), which will hurt you 9 out of 10 times !!
I could not continue my Flight Training with CFS because my (positive !!!!!!) account balance got below 16.000 Rand !!!!!!

Together with this very disapointing experience and all kind of ''promises'' of co-piloting some Cargo Albatross........(.being a white guy with a Eurppean Passport........YEAH SURE..do you believe it ???????? ......... yeah, me idiot, I did then.
WE ALL TRY TO MAKE OUR DREAMS COME TRUE......RIGHT !! I decided to lick my ( financial)wounds and leave beautiful South Africa ( this is 1995 by the way..!!).. heading for Flight Safety Academy, Vero Beach, Florida, USA.

At this time I'am flying Corperate in the States, can't beat a Lear at 410 !!

Just wanted to share my experience with all of you who have to make a mayor discision in their young lives, which at the end of the day, might turn out to be a very important one!!
Says who ......??? A now 47 year old horses mouth out of an old CFS stable.

Gerald, I hope Sally and the kids are in good health, because besides of the fact that I think you should change your financial management(like I told you when I left) we had our good moments at the campfire !!!!
Please give them my regards !!

Take care everyone, Fly Safe ..!!

Gary Pols

General Flight training
 

Gary.........thanks for the time and effort to comment on this thread

it was very, very tempting but I decided to leave it !

However, it is very unfortunate that whilst there are many problems ocurring within the Flight training enviroment so few people have the gaul to expose it.

There are many people who have freely without prompting expressed personal dissatisfaction at his particular flying school.

In particular, when I was there and for whatever reason and you all know who you are !! I wish to say to them don't just talk or winge about it ! Do something about it ! I did and will see this through to it's right and correct conclusion, allbeit, it takes time, money and above all, patience.

Don't let the people concerned believe that they are untouchable and any better than you and me, the law is there in whatever country you reside, to protect you from enduring these sorts of practices, use the law!! Don't be a coward and keep quiet or simply walk away!!!

Point made ?

Court action update
 

CFS COURT CASE UPDATE

Important information

It has been some time since the last posting on the saga so I thought I would give you an update on the current state of affairs relating to my court proceedings against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe). This matter does have and has created an enormous amount of public interest, no more so than by just the shear number of hits on this thread.

A full hearing of this matter took place at Cambridge County Court on 25th March 2004, nearly one year on since my visit to Cape Flying Services in George South Africa to undertake my PPL course.

This hearing was set to last 4 hours and it had taken nearly four hours to just establish who the contract was actually with and after resulting from careful and painstakingly perusal of all documents supplied by Mr Pugh. Bearing in mind that Mr Pugh has argued throughout and vigorously that the contract was not with him but with Gerald Todd in South Africa, that is, Cape Flying Services George CC. Fundamentally and most importantly the judge agreed with me, as I have always said, that the contract was indeed with Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) and not with South Africa and issued a “liability” judgment against the defendant.

So what does this mean: quite simply that any breach of contract, damages and costs possibly awarded to me at a later hearing will be borne solely by the defendant, Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) and not Cape Flying Services George CC. The details of this case are well documented and needless to say that there is a strong case for him to answer at the forthcoming hearing.

Also this judgment is important as it sets a precedent for all other students who booked their courses through the defendant, being based in Europe, in particular, UK based students and who may feel that they have a case against him that it is not necessary to travel back to South Africa and pursue their case in a South African court but they can pursue him in a European court for redress. It will also serve a warning to himself that he is responsible for ensuring that the services he advertises is in fact provided when he “sub contracts” it to Cape Flying Services George CC, irrespective of his business relationship with South Africa.

I have calculated that I have made at least 8 proposals to settle this matter without any counter offer from the defendant, he has colluded with Gerald Todd, concocted and continues to make serious personal and abusive attacks throughout this case that quite simply strikes at the heart of the integrity or professionalism of both the school and him. These stinging and slanderous comments will be made available to the court in due course to highlight the downright obstructive and venomous attitude. This case did not need to be pursued in the UK courts or in any court for that matter as it should have been dealt with long time ago. Both the defendant and Gerald Todd have forced me into this and I will see it through to its correct conclusion.

I will keep the forum up to date with the outcome.


Thank you,

Sandy Young

Well Done
 

Congratulations Sandy
Well done for standing up for your rights as any self respecting human being would.Obviously the judge saw through the scam also.

sandy
im also worried that there are bad schools but nobody recognises that they are bad
maybe standards are so low here that they just cant see what is wrong
This is Africa and it is more African than before. Good in some ways but not for this school who are not keeping standards high level.
Aviation is a tricky business and standards have to be the same all over this world and cant drop like CFS has.
Very Good Luck to you.

Guns...
 

I don't think this sam character and Sandy are the same bloke. Sandy sounds like a reasonable oke who took a bit of strain as opposed to sam who sounds like an uneducated child.

Spotcha around boet....

No childs here funny man

Many thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to this , as i understand, an important thread.

Some of the comments have been constructive whilst some others remain quite frankly, unecessary. I am not going to get into a long speech about the case but to say it is ongoing and will be pursued to it's rightful conclusion, sooner rather than later!

I will endevour to continue to give a full and objective update of the case to the forum as i am sure that there is some interesting relevant points still to be made regarding this matter


Regards

Sandy

Sandy

As a fellow Mancunian I'm sure you're familiar with Coronation Street (for our colonial cousins that's a long running soap-opera set in Manchester). I'm sure Betty was referring to you when she utterred the words "more front than Blackpool!":mad:

I cannot comment on the allegations you have made against CFS and their agent in the UK, but I think the way that you have used this forum, and in light of what CFS actually did for you in the short time you were there is actually making you look like a pretty spoilt brat.

I believe that any one who expects to complete a PPL in a month is skating on thin ice. Not that it is not possible as that's what I did mine in, but it requires excellent weather, and no maintenance issues. As an aside don't you think these aircraft we train in are quite amazing. Designed in the 50s the majority are extremely reliable despite the fact that they are regularly "abused" on a daily basis.

Given that you have less than two hours solo to over thirty dual hours I would venture that you are not the next Chuck Yaeger. There is no disgrace in this but you have to be realistic in your expectations. I would be surprised if you polished the lot off in a fortnight.

I have no interest whatsoever in CFS but I feel that this negative publicity they are getting is a bit unfair. Having been in business myself I can safely say that they must be doing something right if they have been around all the years they have. For all you sceptics out there that is something to remember.

Sandy if it is your aim to fly predominantly in the UK then might I suggest not bothering with SA. It seems that you don't have the time to take and that doing any PPL rushed is not the best way forward. Why not train in the UK and do the whole thing at your leisure at say the Lancashire Aero Club at Barton.

To reduce the cost and bear in mind the Rand Pound exchange isn't as good as it was (may be that's why you want CFS to give you so much free), you might want to consider buying a share in an aircraft. Before you think I'm mad I was offered a 1/20 share in an IFR equipped Cessna 150 for £1300. Running costs were £40 per hour. Given that you could sell your share and not incur a loss this might be the way to go. Plus should you plan to fly in the UK you wont have to waste more money getting used to the airspace and RT differences.

Regards

GT

Neither Cape Flying Services or Naunton Pugh will be bullied into paying moneys we feel not due. Mr. Young has the legal system to protect him if he has a legitimate claim. Should the Court decide that we where in error in holding back the £350 ( non refundable deposit paid to Naunton Pugh ) and award it, then I could understand Mr. Young making a post.
I have attached the following for your perusal, here he acknowledges the damage his posts have done and tries to use PRUNNE as a lever to have us settle.



While his breakdown is totally wrong, and doesn’t acknowledge any expenses like books, CAA fees, Insurance, accommodation, lectures..etc. He does acknowledge that Cape Flying Services refunded him £124.78. We did this despite the fact that he booked for a whole course, and the allocated Instructor and aircraft where underutilized due to his leaving early. On numerous occasions Mr. Young has warned people not to pay up front, by all means one can do this, but don’t expect a school to commit to anything more than that which you paid. We committed to the hours Mr. Young paid for and despite his claim, worked very hard to give him 35.1 hours of flight training in 15 days……hardly a SCAM. On the Terms and Conditions form, signed by Mr. Young it states clearly that a £350.00 deposit is non refundable.





An “hour building exercise” ?? And then he post’s this :





I had no intention of posting a response to Sandy Young, however his posts have been damaging to Cape Flying Services, Naunton Pugh and myself. He claims to have tried to come to a settlement….here is an example.





Come back and fly with us ???

After the last Court case ( Jan 2004 ), he said he would settle for this :


I apologize for “hanging out our dirty washing” it’s pathetic and this is not the medium through which any legal reconciliation is likely to be met. Cape Flying Services will not refund on principal, and refuses to be blackmailed into doing so, no matter how paltry the sum.


Gerald Todd