Airline Jock's flying Charter!
 

There are a number of South African employed airline pilots doing freelance charter in their off time. := Even more concerning is that the majority of these pilots are flying for our best paid airline!:ugh:

After attempting to put a stop to this through the normal channels with no success I've decided to resort to 'gorilla tactics'. SO

I'll start of by asking nicely - If you are employed by a South African airline please show your professionalism and refrain from flying 'freelance charter'.

And your problem with this is what, exactly?
 

What, the big dog is eating out of your dish?

What is unprofessional about flying and being paid for it, anyway, whether that is flying on the line or doing freelance charter? It's a free market and if some big-deal alirline captain wants to do charter, flying a humble bug-smasher with an ATPL, well, it still beats that Scientology clown flying a 707 on a PPL with four stripes!

Get back to us in about 20 years and tell us if you have changed your mind about this, please.

Grow up pal! Aviation Industry isn't as cossy as your thick-skinned nursery. :)

What does that have to do with "Professionalism"?

Next time, ask if you can fly with those individuals - You might just LEARN something. :ok:

For the record, our South African Airline does not allow us to do "outside" flying except for the purpose of keeping a rating valid or for the purpose of obtaining a higher license - we work hard enough as it is...

:O

Are you going to peel a banana with your feet while scratching your bum?

Well I DO fly for a South African airline and I WILL continue to fly free lance professionally or otherwise.

111

We were all there once...
 

Well, many if not most of us!

I once noted with interest one of our semi-feral Germans deciding that he and he alone was the logical choice to take all those aircraft delivery trips back-and-forth between Germany and West Africa. None of the rest of us had his experience, since he was the one who assigned the trips, the greedy git!

To pop up here "troubling deaf heaven with your bootless cries" will not get you much sympathy since almost anyone in aviation for very long gets used to being crapped upon from a great height; it is just part of how the game is played. Of course one would rather have a highly-experienced four-striper as his aerial chauffeur instead of some newbie, that is just "market forces" at work, the same thing that drives one to hire an air taxi in the first place instead of hitching a ride in a bakkie almost for free.

Where does "passion" come into it anyway? I have a lot of passion for motorsport but those bastards at Ferrari just laugh at me when I ask for a spin in one of their Formula One cars. Life is unfair.

20 years later
 

Chuks,

I have to say that this is twenty years later and I am still with RSA on this one. They were doing it then and are still doing it now. Then they were taking away my livelyhood and now they are taking somebody else's.:=

They are mostly well paid and dont need the money. Besides, as someone pointed out, it is illegal according to their ops manuals.

If they feel so passionate about general aviation, go do a "Scully" and fly something that is not taking money and hours from youngsters who are only trying to progress. And if they really feel the need to put something back into aviation and/or teach the youngsters a thing or two, let them go do instruction. That is a worthwhile cause.

Safe flying,

Sir O

I understand your point but...
 

Market forces still rule.

If someone really cares, don't waste time moaning to fellow sufferers here. Go drop a note to SAA with name, date and registration to ask why Captain X doesn't need to stick to the rules. Or find some gentleman of the press who needs to do a story about greedhead airline captains grabbing trips from deserving neophytes while flaunting the rules.

Just remember if you do that though, "What goes around, comes around!" If you end up on the wrong side of the "old boys' network" then you might as well forget getting very far ahead so that my advice is not to do these things. You might end up like ALPA's Timmy "Milkman" Martins, famous for all the wrong reasons, if you inspire a write-up about "Moaning Newbies Face Grim Future Selling Burgers!" instead of "Captain X Is A Greedy Swine!"

What this comes across as is "special pleading," sort of saying that even though it is a rough row to hoe getting a foothold in aviation, you should be treated with consideration by some four-striper. Well, why? Do you also expect to go to the head of the check-out line at the market because you are in a hurry? The best thing is to stop moaning and sort out a solution to the problem, either simple denunciation (when no one likes a rat) or else just sucking it up and laughing it off.

It is funny you should mention that but I am just in the middle of doing an on-line CFI renewal for my FAA CFI (Airplane, Instrument, Multi-engine, Gold Seal, Ground Instructor Instrument Advanced). Oh, and I also have a JAR FI that I haven't even used yet!

So I am sat on the fence; I would have no compunctions about grabbing a trip off some starving youngster if that were done fair and square yet I do try to put something back, yes.

Just to clarify, SAA is not the only "South African" Airline so do not assume that I was referring to SAA.

Semantics says that even Kulula and 1Time are "South African" Airlines :p

Firstly I would like to say that I am one of those who has and will fly outside of the Airline. In some and most of our cases we do have written permission to fly and train outside of our airline, as long as we stay within company flight and duty limitations.

There are always three sides to a good argument.

From my point of view and what I have seen there is a very limited amount of Airline pilot’s that actually do freelance work. Hence, feel the witch hunt seems more like a personal vendetta.

On the other side of the coin it is not possible to keep all the proficiency ratings current and fly without a lot of dedication. In other words the income versus effort is very limiting; hence I very much doubt they do it for the money.

It is a generalisation but many guys who fly freelance are dedicated to general aviation and do the work with passion, passing on information and knowledge. Usually there is a lot more background to each person, than pure financial greed. As QNVS said you may learn a lot from them.

Professionalism is NOT resorting to ‘gorilla tactics’ to destroy some-one else’ input in General Aviation, but rather improving your own.

This industry is small, and usually the same guys who are involved in GA are the ones the help advance the careers of the people they meet. But it can work in reverse.

So in summary, concentrate on your own career and not other peoples. I am sure they are not stealing that much bread from your table. You may well find yourself one day wanting to put/get back to GA.

RSA
 

One post, and it's pathetic. On the bright side, it can only get better.

Airline pilots have been doing that forever, the world over. Get used to it.

I will say at the beginning that I find myself entirely in agreement with Sir O on these matters.
The subject has been raised on Pprune before. The specific context of complaint which I can remember was instruction and in particular part time instruction.
However, it might be worth reflecting that perhaps the general aviation accident statistics are as low as they are in South Africa precisely because grizzled old dogs are poaching the flying fun from the mouths of the youthful and inexperienced.
I fear to say that the situation is historically entirely normal and short of breaking a few knee caps in the car park one dark winter morning, will remain so.
Soldiers get shot at in the dawn attack, the officers breakfast on bread and brandy. No doubt some of the officers today are as undeserving as their counter parts in the past.

Cavorts welcome back,

Bekkers, let me say at the outset that I have very little respect for the guys doing this. The ones I came across in the pubs in Sua Pan, Jwaneng, Beira, Lubumbashi, etc, might have had a passion for aviation. But mostly were only too glad to brag openly about how much they were earning "tax-free", Money under the table" for this charter and that they did NOT record the hours in their logbook.

I never ratted a guy out, but now think differently. Next time I have a name, I will let it slip. Most of the culprits in those days were guys who had never had to go the charter route and try survive on freelance work. They came from the SAAF or very wealthy families, or had a Dad on the interview panel. But they honestly had no clue what it was like trying to build hours and support a family.

Sorry guys and Girls, but I still don't buy it.

Sir O

Well, clearly there's still some efficiency to be had if these guys have hours to spare in terms of FDP/max hours....Speaking for myself, I reckon I'm being squeezed for most of the hours of the day (and night) - not too much 'extracurricular' flying being done, we're all too knackered! Thats IF we had legal hours to spare...this isn't at SAA of course.

But hey, it's a tough old world.....

Thank you Sir O...

I just sort of wondered, in the most idle of fashions, whether RSA might be a troll or even a rogue gorilla?

Remember that CV580 that crashed in Eastern DRC in April of '06.

One of the pilots was an SA native who flew 747s (not for SAA).

Perils of the profession.

Difference is he wasn't taking time off from the 747 to fly the CV580. The company operating the 747 had closed due to their aircraft being wrecked in Nigeria. He began flying the CV580 after that to earn a living, just like anyone else.

Airline Pilots doing Charter
 

Guys i must agree this is going on and it always will. We are not going to stop them. They have their special reasons for doing charter. Some say to keep up ratings..........dont they do that in SAA or whatever South African Airline they fly for. Some say to put back something in general aviation.....maybe. what happens to the money they earn for their salary if they are that passionate about putting something back. They receive training and a damn good salary from the airline they fly for.

As far as putting something back i agree with guys doing instruction and even better being DE's . That is where you learn NOT being on a charter with an airline pilot sitting chewing your ear off about how they do it in the airline and how good their training is when you have to show them how to use the FMS and various other things in the plane because they have not flown it for 6 months. GA flying is very different to airline flying because we do everything from clearances to paying landing fees etc . We dont just sit in the cockpit and wait for the load sheet to sign.

Dont see any airline pilots volunteering to take leave and go and fly contracts in Afghanistan or someother tough place to live in do we now...........wonder why:confused:



I am against this practice and agree with Sir O. I dont have to worry about the wheel that turns because i am not in an airline. My question is how do the airline guys fit in charter work if they fly so much in the airline and how do they adjust their FDP. They have to apply 2 sets of rules for FDP. their airlines rules and the charter companies rules. I blame the charter queens for some of this but hey the lads get away with it.

As for cape town airline pilots just look at the searay planes in cape town flown by professional saa pilots for many years, openly flaunting their ability to fly those planes. They had the owners fork out sim courses for about 8 pilots (SAA) (I speak under correction about the number of pilots) and on top of that they had their normal work at SAA. Fortunately tht has stopped now. Wonder what dassie and the boys are doing now.........................

Now BECKERS where is the justice in that. Please tell me why GA must pay for an airline pilot to fly.

This will never change because airline management are not concerned about anything than their financial side as long as the pilots fly and CAA is happy GA must suffer and new guys on the block just sit and wait . Been there done that and see it still happening.

MAYBE AIRLINE PILOTS ARE NOT HAPPY BEING AT HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES IN THEIR SPARE TIME AND HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO

This kind of thing happens all over the world.
I know a few guys that fly for the big boys in the states that fly Biz Jets around on there free time.
The question here is it wrong? Well I don’t know and will not answer that one.
The small airlines do indeed like the experience that guys have.

Unfortunately I am the only one here to defend the intentions of a few.

I have given it some thought and the few examples of the other guys, I thought of, who do it simply for financial gain. Sadly each one works for the best paying airline. Also it is only these guys that have enough time off to make it regular. And these same guys don't help others move forward. So yes there is a point.

Personally I do very little charter flying and mostly instruction, but it is not the 30-40hrs of ground school that people see, only the 1 hour of flying.

So perhaps confront the individual personally, rather than an entire industry. It's not all rotten.

It's a perfectly acceptable practice. Signing up to fly for an airline never did (and never will) deny a man his right to fly what, why, where, when, who, and how he likes. If you don't like it, take up knitting.

I guess it's like saying that when you become a Springbok (No Pun intended), you may no longer play for your Provincial Franchise...because now you prevent the Provincial Players from gaining the necessary experience and exposure "they" need to become Springboks :\

It's a tough old World out there...

:zzz:

126.9:

It is NOT an acceptable practice.:= Obviously you were never a struggling newbie?? I can see how if you had everything handed to you on a silver spoon, you might find no moral wrong in the practice, but please remember, not everyone had, or has the same start you appear to have. (Plain or Pearl??)

Q4nvs: The REAL Springboks contract does not prohibit, unlike the other ones, working elsewhere. (Apples with apples...)

Actually it's called 'moonlighting' and in the school of hard knocks, that's exactly what you used to get for poaching another man's livelihood when your own was quite secure.

(Signing up to fly for an airline never did (and never will) deny a man his right to fly what, why, where, when, who, and how he likes. If you don't like it, take up knitting.)

And might the same philosophy sir, be applied to one's wife?

Perhaps some ‘repetitive route flying’ pilots haven’t kept up with general aviation in SA . There seems to be a belief that they ‘come back’ to fly the smaller aircraft and help the 'learners' to become better pilots.
These days general aviation includes smaller ‘ airline type’ airplanes such as BAE 146’s, 737’s, F28’s ATR72’s EMB120’s, the list goes on. The crew for these aircraft get the same training and frequency of training as any airline, it’s a legal requirement to do so. Long story short, there are plenty well trained pilots around the GA airports who can share knowledge with the lower time pilots.
What we should be asking ourselves is how the hell did some of you guys get into the airlines in the first place if the standards are so high there. They clearly aren’t! I thought after nearly killing themselves in the Historic Dak a few years back, whilst giving back to GA I presume, you airline pilots would have realized that perhaps the real flying should be left to the GA aviators. Learn to taxi your aircraft before teaching others how to fly theirs. Get the book 'Airbus Taxiing 101 at Cape Town' it may help.

Although ours does, with some research you might find that not all Airlines actually prohibit this.

:zzz:

Never a Struggling Newbie
 

Sir Osis

Grew up in Saunders House Boys' Home in Durban. Saved my (so called) danger pay for two years and worked another five years as a miner at Harmony Gold Mine to pay for my flying. Freelanced outa Lanseria in the eighties and early nineties. My logbook reflects as many as three months between flights in the hard days. Competed with many SAA, Comair, and other more experienced freelancers. I'm still mates with most of them. Marie Dry gave me my first full-time job at Inter Air after I'd walked the airport for more than three years. Later came the airlines.

I don't begrudge anyone the right to work. But it is a free market out there. Get used to it.

---

carvortingcheetah and coward

Read your PM pal. Your cowardly comment about my wife is coming back to kick you in the a55!

126.9

Since you seem to have taken grave offence at nothing more than my extension of your own philosophy, I have altered my original post to remove any connotation from which I hope you could reasonably imply a personal connection.
I sincerely trust that this will mollify your outraged outburst which I found surprising considering the arrogant and self centered nature of your previous words directed towards those less fortunate than yourself. I do not normally pay much attention to threatening e mails or private messages however, in the interests of the prevention of aviation terrorism, I have made a note of your name, which you so kindly provided. I think that all threats to aviation personnel should be taken seriously and acted upon, don't you?

You're quite right they should be taken seriously and acted upon. And don't you forget it. 1500 posts leaves a trail better than a birth certificate. Posts regarding recent illnesses ... PPRuNe outages in Germany ... and that pseudonym ... (cuts it down already) ... I read on ...!

As for the attempt to misconstrue your libelous statement as implication of connotation: the original content was false, malicious, and defamatory. Feel free to have your attorneys contact me. I'll provide a copy of the original page and my address and telephone numbers via PM upon your request.

What a Load of crap Oompilot! General aviation should be pretty routine flying too! Heard of SOP's? And Jtrain, the guy who scribbled the CV580 was washed from the airline.

126.9

I seem to have provoked you, unwittingly, into a major sense of humour failure. Since you are apparently intent upon a litigious course of action I'll say little further at this stage other than to point out that no comment was made about your's or any one else's wife. Whether a rhetorical question in the context can be defamatory or libelous in law probably lies outside the scope of this thread. I rather suspect though it is your words and your threats, both in public and in private, that have been malicious. However, in the interests of harmony and to assuage your fury, I offer you my apology if my question has been taken out of its intended philosophical context and caused offense.

Ironic that this thread was about dodgy moonlighting airline pilots and now they are irate and worried about their wives fidelity. This is simply solved, stop moonlighting. This seems to be a sore point with you guys so perhaps that is reason enough to stay at home between trips.:E

While we busy with the lawyers.....
 

Seen as 126.9 seems so keen to have his lawers get involved, maybe we could ask them about the legality of moonlighting? (Just not sure if any other members of his family were also moonlighting?)

Seriously boys, this is a rumour forum. If you want to post anonymously, expect a few swipes at your personality.

If you want to moonlight and take work away from someone else, and BOAST about it, expect to get shot down in flames......

Safe flying,
Sir O

A Simple Solution To Moonlighting.....
 

For Charter flights as mentioned in the original post.......
I have a interesting proposition - (have used it myself - Sorry RSA)
Have your company not only give you permission to perform the flight making them take into account your flight and duty time requirements - but have them bill the company requesting the flight with any money going back into your company to ensure you are in fact doing the flight due to your "Passion for Aviation":rolleyes:

I remember when a "Moonlighter" I know missed his flight and delayed his airlines departure due to a technical problem with his "Moonbuggy":{

I wonder, in the usual idle sort of way, what has happened to the original poster whom I at one stage wondered was a troll? Perhaps he would care to enter the debate he started as it rages to and fro?

126.9
 

This is a thread about South African Airline Pilots doing charter.

Does 126.9 not live in Europe.

What would all thee airline pilots say about us GA guys walking in and asking to fly in their airlines. There are some who used to fly in the airlines before they saw the light. MMMMMMMMMM

They are the first to scream about someone getting pushed in front of them on the Seniority List.

I will certainly do my best and have been trying for years to stop this practice but SOME and not all Arline guys think they are gods gift to aviation. I repeat this view only stands for those airline pilots that do charter and not for those that do instruction and are DE's.

Fly Safe guys and gals:ok:

Cavort....

Maybe the O.P. is too busy moonlighting to have time to reply? :rolleyes:

Taking the risk of being pulled to pieces, but why do the GA guys feel, that "airline pilots" are not allowed to fly GA charters? Aren't they 'simply' pilots too?
Now, as to the aspect of an airline pilot earning a great salary and hence shouldn't be flying charters:
Is there a certain income limit amongst the SA pilot community, after which it is downright obscene to continue taking on work? Aren't there pilots employed by GA charter companies, also doing freelance work on the side, if they can?
What about those freelance pilots, that are flying regularly for rather good rates, is it ok for them to not share their flights with guys, that are not being called out that much?
How about pilots doing contract work? They quite often earn more than some of the airliners and still do freelance work in their time off at home. Is that ok? I know for a fact, that some A340 Captains earn less, than what contract pilots flying jets do.
Is there some kind of fine line, that a pilot crosses over, once employed by an airline?
I have come across a number of GA charter pilots who think the sun shines out of their bottom holes, being the divine's gift to aviation.
I know how it feels, if one sits at home and just waits for the telephone to ring. But if freelance pilots sit around, not flying enough, isn't that an indication of there being too many freelancers? What about people, who have had a no-fly job and now pour into the rather saturated market. Are they frowned upon?
What about the more experienced GA pilots, those flying 1900 or jets. Is it ok for them to do a flight on a piston single or light twin? Don't they take work away from the lesser experienced, lesser qualified pilots, who need the hours more and the money too?
Sure, many airline employment contracts state, that you are not allowed to take on work outside that specific company. Or they state, you are only allowed to fly 2 different types. But isn't that an issue between the airline and that pilot? Do you guys really feel called upon to play policemen? Do you open a case against everyone who overtakes you while you stick to the speed limit? Or jumps a red robot you stop at?
I think some people should rather ask themself, why they not get enough work. Why is it, that the charter queens call the "airline pilots" instead of you, who has been sitting around. Those freelancers I have met, who were not doing well, had contributed to their misery. Either by never being available over weekends, or by having a bad attitude towards the pax (I'm a pilot, not a porter) or even by rocking up noticeably hung over. Please take that into consideration too.

CJ750
 

You seem like a balanced fellow with a chip on both shoulders, hiding in anonymity and naming names on a public forum.

"I repeat this view only stands for those airline pilots that do charter and not for those that do instruction and are DE's. "

....now that really makes sense, is an airline guy instructing or doing DE work not taking work away from his GA bretheren? Are you the judge as to who can fly what and when?

Worry about your own life and dont get too bitter if the sun shines on somebody else.