Good man OneDay21... Decent of you.

Goffel,

Yes, Setron did get our attention, rightly so.

I never said they were useless, uneducated, dumb..... YOU DID.

Sure they will find non-compliances when they visit. Except maybe at your outstation, that is, where the pliots don't make mistakes.

Surprisingly eneough, they are pretty good with that and actually manage to get it right more often than not.


They do read it because they ask questions about it if they are unsure of anything.

My perfect company spends a lot of money to try and give the pilots the best training both in the SIM and HF etc to ensure that everyone is working to a common standard. Sadly, they are human so yes, there will be discrepancies and a good auditor will find them and they will be addressed and everyone will learn from it and the overall standard will improve. Your company on the other hand will ace the audit because they have YOU to guide them.

If only that were true. Would you consider coming to work for us?

My doorstep is probably a lot dustier than I would care to admit, mea culpa!

If I had written those comments about "Skully" all of the posters here would have been down my neck as badly and rightly so. What he wrote was an attack of a deeply personal nature on someone who is probably even more professional than you are ( subject to confirmation, of course) and were this not a unanimous forum would almost definitely never have been posted for fear of a libel suit.
Maybe they were only to get our attention, but I will stand by the fact that he stepped over a line by naming names especially when he turned out to be wrong, ie
I fully support the spirit of this thread because the industry that I love and that has supported my family for almost 20 years is in serious trouble in the country I love.
It does not excuse the tone of the initial post in my opinion and I will stand by that statement.

As for the fact that I will struggle to answer technical questions from the guys of all cultures at CAA,
of course I will never get them all right. To expect different is unreasonable, after all the exams do not demand 100%.

I am gong to be shot down for this, but here goes.......

The CAA should be responsible for the travel arrangements and accomodation of their own staff. If they are coming to audit me then it creates a problem because if they do not have a good flight or don't like their rooms then I COULD GET HAMMERED in the audit, so maybe I should stump up and fly them business class or put them in the Cape Sun so they will go easy on me.
Now, before you jump up and down and tell me they are all impartial and would never do that, just remember - they are human and subject to emotions like us all, and has been loudly proclaimed in the press some of them are less than honest.
It is eneough that I will have to pay for the visit from the CAA, I just feel that to add the responsibility of travel and accomodation to my requirements is creating an opening for exploitation.

As for S&T, I get mine with my salary which is paid in arrears AFTER I start my trip, so they are lucky there.

I know that you and others will not agree with a lot of what I and others post here, and rightly so. That is what makes this such a good forum to discuss topics of interest, but when it gets personal it gets WRONG, in my opinion.

I also will happily stand corrected for anything that I am proven wrong about and offer a full and sincere apology if wrong, so feel free to point out any faults that I have made so I can learn from them and correct any misconceptions I may have.

Enjoy the beach, I've got amendments to file:{:ugh:.

Oh well.
 

Unstable Load.

Very clever with your wording....pity you never mentioned your bit about the "Guvmunt"........or how the white guys have taken either a package or retired........and how the BEEEE guys have suddenly realised that they have a job to do.

Ah.....so you also mention that it is perceived that the CAA guys are available to the highest bidder, (bribery).....To me that borders on you stirring the pot and falling just short of actually saying it yourself., (accountability, enforcement, exam papers).

Setrons comments at no time initially were directed at the CAA, thus your comments being way out of line.

Be a gentleman and admit you screwed up with your comments...no-one is perfect.

Goffel...:8

Okay, I'll go there...

What happened to a lot of the white guys that were at DCA? Some were retiring age, and the balance of the ones that left, left why? Like it or not, Affirmative Action and BEE has done more to undermine business and general confidence in South Africa than it has benefitted the masses it was meant to assist who in many ways are worse off now than they were under apartheid, but that is for another thread.

Yes, the new guys did have a surprise, I believe. Civil aviation is a complex "business" to run at all, let alone effectively and anyone who steps up to the plate with little or no experience is going to get a steep learning curve.

Yes, I do mention that SOME of the people there are open to bribery, and I believe that I did not need to say it because it is a matter of public record that it is indeed the case and furthermore, I don't believe I have anything to apologise for by raising the point. Indeed, it is a fundamental part of the current mess we are in, because they will never have respectability and credibility as an organisation that is a controlling body if there is rot in the core.

You may note that I did not make a blanket accusation of ALL the CAA being crooked, merely some. I don't see how my reiterating something that is part of public knowledge can anyhow be construed as stirring, but if you see it that way, I apologise for misleading you.

No, Setron's comments were not directed at the CAA, however as the governing organisation the ultimate responsibility to fix it lies squarely at their door and no amount of apologising from me is going to change that.
Please note that I am not blaming CAA for the current state of affairs, it has been a joint effort with a general decay in standards and an opinion of "don't care" from some in the industry who are doing their level best to undermine/ignore the very regulations that are there to ensure that things go smoothly and safely.

If I have misled you further with this post, please be so kind as to draw my attention to it, and accept my apology in advance for being clever with the words.

I believe that civil aviation is at a point where it is teetering on the balance between anarchy and ridicule on one side and respectability and a return to the place it deserves in the world on the other.

A serious effort from ALL involved to step up to the plate and fix it is needed as a matter of urgency and my vote goes with fixing it.
I feel that this forum is a good place to start where I don't know who you are and thus do not care whether you are the head of the CAA or merely an apologist for them, and you don't know who I am beyond some irritating, opinionated a-hole who is dumping on the CAA, and this allows us to voice our opinions freely in the hope that someone who has the power to do something actually reads it and DOES SOMETHING before it becomes too difficult to fix.

Instead of telling me off for mentioning that the King has no clothes on, rather tell me how I can help beyond doing my best at my job.

Respectfully,

(seriously) Unstable Load.:ugh:

Appology accepted.
 

your appology is accepted.......lets move forward and try to find the kings clothing.

Last I heard is that he was at Sandy Bay...:E

Goffel.....winging his way to Cape Town..:8

Goffel,

You have my wholehearted agreement there. Say hi to Slaapstad for me, please.

Sieg Heil P+F !
 

After my first post, that started this thread, PF wrote:
I then got this message:
So, I was punished for speeking my mind and put in "verbal jail"...:zzz:

Freedom is always the freedom of the other one!
Restricting freedom of speech shows fear and is the trademark of dictatorship.
Dictarorship has no place in todays times or in aviation and has noting to do with moderation or beeing professional.:=

I am not surprised at all, just very disappointed. I would not have expected this at PPRUNE. I guess it's all down to the integrity of the people given power to.
If this attitude and notion is still (or again) existing in my SA, then the problem is rooted deeper, much deeper than I initially expected.:(

Homework:
What is the legal level to fly over build up areas and people in SA (aka: Stadiums)?
What is the LCN of Rand airport and a 747?
What width of a r/w is considered safe to land an a/c in respect of it's wheelbase?

Obviously you can bypass any legislation as you please, if you know who to speak to...
Just makes a mockery out of the legislation, but who cares...
Some are just more equal before the law than others!

Now then PFy, go ahead and get this post deleted as well, while you are hurt again, because the truth sometimes hurts.

..and everybody thought you had died in Berlin in 1945!

Well guys,in case they allow you to read this, be careful in this arena, stick to the rules and keep it safe.

Good day, aux revoirs, allahu akbar, auf wiedersehen, tot seens...

Dude,

Pprune is a BRITISH site. Either I am being really dense or you have your wires crossed.

I have been banned before from the whole site:(, so don't feel victimised. You need to remember that although this is a rumour network and anonymous, there is still a responsibility from the Owners to ensure it stays free of anything that may implicate or link them to a possible lawsuit
and this is where the moderators need to exercise their judgement. :ugh:
It could have been your naming names that got you pinged, it could have been that the mods thought the thread could get nasty or personal. Whatever it was, they have the final say here, like it or not.

No matter how much you dislike it, they have the rules to uphold, the same rules you agreed to follow when you joined up. Likening them to Hitler:= could get you tossed permanently, depriving us of some healthy discussion.:p

Fly catching...
 

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Why start out in such a judgemental way if you want a positive dialogue?

There are some things I can do as a pilot to raise the general level of safety. There are many more things I think I know about African aviation that are out of my remit:

How it's regulated or not.

How some of my fellow professionals conduct their flights.

How well-maintained some of the aircraft are or not.

There isn't very much use to me raising points about stuff I cannot fix that are fairly well-known unless I just want to have a good moan.

Worse yet, if I start pointing the finger at some individual pilots expect things to go down to mud-slinging pretty quickly. It's probably best to just cite anonymous examples of "how not to do it" or else just stick to my own mistakes, of which I have a few to work from.

"Cowboy pilots" might be part of the problem but what about a system that allows them to fly that way? If someone knows they are not going to get away with doing silly things then they will probably behave and follow the rules. They might even get used to doing that and find life just goes so much more smoothly that way!

If you have a place that has no approaches, lousy weather and high terrain around it you already have a hazard. If you then add a lax attitude on the part of individual pilots (Minimums are for newbies; I know what I'm doing!), commercial pressure (Fred Bloggs seemed to make it in okay; why did you have to abort and return to base with a load of pissed-off passengers? The weather wasn't all that bad was it?) and regulators looking the other way (What, we should shut the airport down just for a few low clouds?), accidents are pre-progammed.

In the final analysis we as pilots just have to make that go/no-go decision and then take whatever comes from that, when many of us are not able to face quitting the job since there is nothing else on offer. You figure out a way to fix that problem and you will really be making progress.

Until then, most of this is a waste of bandwidth, either calling poor old Joe Bloggs a w*nker for converting a perfectly good airplane to a thin film of alloy and hairy strawberry jelly on a rock face or else defending him as one of the best who was just caught by blind fate. Joe Bloggs is just one part of a system that often does not work correctly in Africa!

Try sneaking into a place in the U.S.A. when the birds are walking, some field without any approaches. You will be haunted by the thought of some horrible little man from an F.A.A. GADO (General Aviation District Office) who might hunt you down like Inspector Javert, relentless and merciless, immune to fear, favour and bribery. Not always and everywhere but it does happen, when you shall weep bitter tears for having done a really great job being a cowboy, ignoring the rules. You got the trip done, the pax were happy, the boss is happy, you are screwed!

Not least, the boss is happy because he can watch from a safe distance as you, poor, alone and friendless are ripped to shreds by this FAA hell-hound while he, wealthy and lawyered-up can just say, "Well, Joe, you know I never wanted you to bust minimums there. I have no idea where you got that idea. Okay, I might have asked you if I needed to find me another pilot but I was just joking with you there, when you must have misunderstood. Don't forget to hand in your beeper; I need it for the new guy."

Africa, ah! Not the same at all, is it? We are left alone to figure out what is safe and what is not, when that is inherently unsafe in itself.

Yes and also.....
It would not anyway be Hitler...but Dr Joseph Goebbels, who was Minister of Propaganda...if you are to mention unmentionable names. If you are to deal in historical comparisons, and not nice ones, please make accuracy in the statements.

As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by flying stunts like using water as a touchdown spot or flying low over a full rugby stadion, there will always be some easy to impress youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel it's OK to push the limit!

As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by to be a pilot, there will always be some youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel its okay to push another pilots limit?

Yup! Just like me altough not a moderator and with variable pitch English!

Point taken, suitcaseman.

Do however, remember that the site's rules still apply and regardless of whether the mods are Saffer or Naija this site WILL play be the current regs, unlike some in the Dark continent's aviation community.;)



Variable pitch Englisch,

I Like it, Hammer!:D

suitcaseman: Setron took his timeout because his start point enabled the outraged to deflect all discussion away from the actual problem - a truly desperate safety record.

Setron got timed out to see if the level of discussion regarding SA aviation safety could roughly approach the standard over on Gunship's forums. Now I personally think the discussions there found a comfy, nebulous blame game also - the modern instructor or modern instruction. I reckon that's far too simple and there's only one post I can remember that pointed to it being cultural - built in and pre programed somehow - when there is no over riding 'law' at the pilot's shoulder. That 'law' might be a legislator, strong SOP's, or a superior CP and training department working for the bigger aircraft and pro operators but there's something seriously amiss outside that sphere and it was painful watching days of it being wilfully ignored here with all the feigned, faux outrage.

Far better discussion elsewhere while you lot started fights amongst yourselves.

Rob

Media Release
SACAA’s response to the recent aircraft accidents in the general aviation sector. Click here to see the latest media statements.

This below is from that media release.


A total of 103 accidents and 34 fatalities have been recorded from April – October 2008
compared to 102 accidents and 15 fatalities during the same period last year. However, the
5 year comparison table below indicates that, notwithstanding the growth in the aviation
industry, the rate of accident occurrences has been steady around 1,6% year on year which
makes the current year no different, other than the number of fatalities experienced this
month.
SA Civil Aviation Authority

If there is no common thread that can be action taken on by he CAA other than the fact that the pilots were inexperienced, then lack of experience before undertaking certain flying excercies or missions is precisely the the common thread that should be emphasised and that---at grass roots--the flying schools and the testing stages of flying! Inexperience and a failure to recognise that fact and take the necessary advice is part of....yes standy by...the teaching, testing of and insistence upon AIRMANSHIP! That is the common factor !

Now I retire to the trenches!

Rantings there may be but the fact if the matter is that it is perhaps not such a good idea for the SA CAA to publish a media release which in effect says that the accident statistic this year is just fine because it is the same as last year - only difference is number of people killed.
I bet the dead do not find this so entertaining as they fly about upstairs - or downstairs perhaps too?
I would hesitate very hard before making a ciritcism of the CAA flight ops department-so I do not do so-and I am no longer up to the speed I was in the past with that department. But I wonder these days if the boundaries have had to be changed to cater for cultural or LCDs. In the passed it was perfectkly acceptable for to fail a pilot on a test because of attitude even if his flying was up to the standard. This tough flexibility in CAA standards allowed instructors to be very hard indeed on students in terms of aviating discipline, planning and procedures.
Maybe the accident ratios are the same now as ever they were? But what I would have looked for with a new CEO is a stronger responding from the CAA to the recent disastrous safety record.-But then possible I live in cuckoo clock land?

"Entertainment"
 

Where is the professionalism in taking a series of fatal crashes as having any entertainment value at all? That's right out of line, I think.

I don't mind, enjoy even, winding up the tinfoil-hatters who show up on Jetblast but that, arguably, is what Jetblast is for! Here I would have thought people could back off, have a think about what we were taught about how to operate safely plus what experience in Africa has taught us and move forward in a reasoned way. Reading about this series of similar accidents seems to invite that.

I remember quite well how it was in Lagos, Nigeria when we would get the word at the "Watering Hole" of some accident or other. That was usually when we would just go into "it can't happen here" mode. There was no pattern emerging to a series of accidents that might apply to us; each one was taken to be something we in our charmed little circle were immune to. (Of course it certainly helped to be somewhat ratted when coming to this conclusion!) Next day this was all gone with the morning mists.

You could argue, I suppose, that part of the pattern was this "no pattern" mentality, that we just couldn't, perhaps still can't, connect the dots. If you do that sometimes you see a trail of dots leading straight to yourself, of course! I know I sure did that, when I took due care to move to another place entirely.

Perhaps part of that is just aging, maturing even. You finally start taking proper rest, reviewing the P.O.H. even when you don't have your annual check coming up, really using stuff such as CRM that you have been taught, not just going along in your little African bubble as if the outside world didn't apply at all...

There are many things we can do as individual pilots that will empower us to operate more safely that really do not take much time at all. Maybe a bit to start with, making that change of position, moving off the spot the dots are heading for but after that it's just a little bit of attention every day, just a few minutes. It sure isn't as much fun as "Kick the tires, light the fires, :mad: the weather; let's go!" but you might last longer.

Well, it might be like this, Suitcaseman:
 

You wrote that you derived entertainment from this discussion, without being at all specific about which part that was.

I don't find it entertaining at all to see people ranting, but perhaps that's just me. To have a serious discussion about safety issues is something useful. To just watch fellow pilots screeching and flinging doo-doo at one another is not really my thing, sorry.

The guy who started the thread got off on the wrong foot by loosely using the term "cowboys" for some people who have died in accidents. That is bound to upset others. Then he ignored that very basic rule of thumb, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!" Why not take the hint and go back to change the title of the thread when it became clear that it was offensive, even if he was too thick to have that idea from the start?

You know, a loose assumption you might be making is that I think I am really bright when it might just be that I only think that I am brighter than you are! You know, just going by some of what I read here, that is all.

Just because this site is free of charge doesn't mean that is a standing invitation to just waste the space! Why not try to have a productive discussion about how to improve safety rather than just watch the show as entertainment while things spiral out of control? What, the Jerry Springer Show does African Aviation? If anyone is being snobbish doing that it would be you!

That was not a rant.

It is a pity that further sensible input from South African flying instructors is not coming forth.

This indicates possibly.
1. They do not use Pprune.
2. They do not give a damn anyway.

Now for an inflammatory observation.
I see that many of white South African flying instructors - especially in Johannesburg areas-this days-are Afrikaans speakers and all are on the way up the flying ladder- so as to say, no dedicated instructoring.
Let the CAA state on accident reports the first language of pilot so that communications as with ATC may be determined. Further - this helps in determination of cultural attitudes to flying training.

They might be busy working.

A lot of this isn't rocket science and it can get sort of tedious trying to restate the bleedin' obvious, just because...

Der absolute Hammer, what the hell has language got to do with accidents!!! Are you implying that just because of your language you are more or less prone to make an accident!! Language definately don't make a good pilot.

All South African cpl and atpl pilots need to do an English proficiency test. You never hear any Afrikaans on the radio giving or reading back clearances/instructions. You might hear the occasional greeting, but that is it.

I do agree with the lack of interest of the instruction though.

H.S.

Hoy Shot,

It could be that if a student is particularly weak in Afrikaans and has an Afrikaans instructor that something could get lost in translation is what Hamer may have meant.
I really don't think that he was off on the German superiority kick.:=

Thank you unstable load - a generous statement for me which I will not deny.
As for you Hot Shots -Language has a hell of a lot to do with accidents - reference as a minimum example the Teneriffe/KLM. So please do not be so simple as to ask such a question as what has language got to do with accidents. I agree language do not make a good pilot but a pilot may be a safer pilot in proportion to his fluency in English-especially in the very rapid changing state of aviation today.

To teach the attitudes and outlooks of safe aviation is a complex task and it needs language comprehension of a near colloquial level.
If there is an Afrikaans speaking instructor and an English speaking student then it is very difficult for complete and colloquial cockpit communication - and the other way around too?
Perhaps this is not the case but I have found no instructors with English as their first language who are completely proficient in Afrikaans and no Afrikaans instructors who are completely fluent in English-but the level of English of the Afrikaans instructors is better than the level of Afrikaans of the English instructors.

The best thing that perhaps can be happening is for the CAA to make a massive public campaign to make very public the accisents that have happened and to make other pilots think and plan before they attempt that for which they are not qualified.

Hammer once again,

You lost me...you must be an Aerospace engineer/Nasa test pilot/Know it all/!!! Write an aviation book or something for crying out loud...we/I would be sure happy to line up and get your autograph...

Ding dong!!!:E

Lieber Hammer

Was Du so ausfürhlich auf die Muttersprache des Fluglehrers zurück führst ist absoluter quatsch. In Südafrika sprechen die Deutsch, Englisch und Afrikaans sprechenden Einwohner fast alle gleich und ich bin sicher das nichts während der Ausbildung in der Übersetzung verloren geht.
Weiterhin ist es noch mehr quatsch wenn Du behauptest das der afrikaanssprechende Fluglehrer kein Interesse in seinem Beruf hat weil er, wie Du meinst, auf dem Weg nach oben ist. Ist das nicht jeder junge Fluglehrer? Ganz davon abgesehen ob er Deutsch, Xhosa oder was auch immer für ne Muttersprache hat.

Denk mal bisschen nach. Volltrottel!

For the rest of the Ppruners that are not fluent in Hammer's language:
Basically what I said was that its pure absurdity that a person's mother tongue has anything to do with said person's dedication to the job. Regardless of which field we work in. Also, South Africans from different language backgrounds all speak the same. Its getting really difficult to distinguish wether a youngster these days is Afrikaans, German or Xhosa speaking at home. So I doubt things get lost in translation during instruction.

I can say that, yes, the English spoken here in Algeria by the South Africans is all to a very good standard, when some of them must have had Afrikaans as their mother tongue. Xhosa speakers, well, these guys all seem to be a uniform shade of pink so that probably doesn't come into it. Anyway I haven't noticed any clicking sounds.

I don't think that their language or professional dedication either, really comes into the root causes of this obvious problem with African accidents.

Thank you for your noble German.
In your English translation..I absolutely agree with you...mother tongue has nothing to do with dedication. I do not think I ever said that it did. My concern and argument had more to do with fluency of communication through the training than anything else.
So I suppose we let the cowboys be cowboys because there seems to be a lack of suggestions here on this thread as to what to do to change that?

Hammer,

Sadly I feel that you are right. This has degenerated to a farce. Sad, because there are a lot of folks on this forum who could contribute so much to trying to get to the bottom of this mess, but we all too often end up like this.

Fly safe, guys and if you are determined to become a statistic, then make it a positive one by contributing to the numbers that do ther jobs professionally and correctly, making aviation the great business it is.

Mina hambha manje.

Here we go again...
 

How long does one have to spend in Africa before one becomes abnormal, then?

I don't think a normal person would even find this low level of discourse entertaining, let alone the main topic under discussion. That said, yes, I seem to recall a few hangar-flying sessions where we would have more than a few grim laughs over the (non-fatal, usually) misfortunes of others. Not ME, of course, just all of my friends! So the idea that you, Suitcaseman, might find this whole ball of wax entertaining seemed plausible, somehow, especially since what you wrote could be read in exactly the way it was written.

On the other hand I have met a few normal pilots who didn't last very long in Africa before running away back to more normal surroundings. You know our abnormally normal "black-catting" in the bar about how many corpses were spotted on the Sunday trip to the beach: that sort of thing, when they would just curl up like a boiled prawn in a little ball of wounded sensibilities.

The part that really chafes is that there just doesn't seem to be much forward progress in these discussions, not much drawing of obvious conclusions but just a lot of either drooling compassion for yet another unfortunate whose luck has mysteriously run out or else huffing and puffing about lack of skill or professionalism on the part of same.

The one is just fatalism, often fatal in itself, and the other is finger-pointing, well known to be anti-safety.

Please, someone, anyone, point out anything that has worked in Africa continent-wide with coöperation at the highest level. In your dreams, Sunshine! ICAO cannot even get basic adherence to SARPS, when offers of help with that usually go ignored at the highest level. Meanwhile, reasonable suggestions of "best operating practices" at the very lowest level also go ignored, at least until something bad finally happens as predestined.

Like many African countries themselves, this is one seriously fragmented continent. A basket of crabs looks like the Life Guards on parade by comparison.

I do appreciate the notification of African accidents found here, along with the approximate circumstances. That usually is about all, though.

Attitude change
 

As much as this particular thread has lost it's course and gone off in another direction, let me try to put a couple of cents to it.

I personally have found that the flight planning of flights, (A/C under 20000 pounds), have deteriorated completely.

There is no pride in what these guys are doing, let alone the flouting of the law.

Example......pilot going to Margate....zero met, zero nav log...zero load sheet........zero map...zero everything.....OH...and a PPL at that....(oops, did I mention charter......Nah.......he works for the company as a tea boy).

But he did have his PPL mate with him to show him the way.

Another example....flight from PE......zero loadsheet...zero map...zero fuel monitoring....(oh....had enough fuel on board as he knew that he was over-weight on take off)......not one, but two comm pilots.

Oh yes, before I forget, he had two, yes, two GPS's to show him the way and was very proud of this...(and this was a company flight).

I watched a CAA inspector being told by the one of the pilots to stop wasting their time as he was sure that the inspector would not know the difference between a car licence or a pilot licence.

Time pilots stopped their uppy attitudes, and took some pride and time in their planning....Over-weight is over weight.....

Pity CAA accident department does not put a couple of photo's of dead peopl on prune for all to see...might knock some sense into people when they see that when you are dead, you are dead for very long time.

This thread could go on and on....but nothing will change until the attitude of pilots changed.....if everyone stood together, then the operator will have to change.

Goffel...ja boet.

Goffel...

A sad but an interesting post.
There is a time, not so long ago, when the CAA Inspector could and would have pulled the licence of the pilot concerned in your story - for lack of pre flight planning as a start.
The authority of the Authority may perhaps be a little part of the problem here?

A funny thing happened at the airstrip the other day...
 

The fire warning bell in the Twotter didn't test. Instead of blowing our ears off it just went "Clonk!"

My 250-hour co-pilot looked at me with a certain hopeful air, as if I might have a spare fire warning bell in my flight bag. Nope!

(Now, actually I was cheating, since I was pretty sure I already knew the answer.) I asked him to get out the MEL and look up the bell, telling him that if there was no entry for it then we were grounded, eh? Ooh, really piling on the pressure.

It turned out that the bell (Surprise!) is something you can do without as long as the red fire warning lights in the pull handles work. Anyway I reached back over my shoulder and fiddled with it until it sort of rang, just so we wouldn't have to snag it.

Well, it beats hell out of just growling to an impressionable young man that we don't need no steenking bell, that we are going anyway. Wrong message but one I used to get all the time when I was in his shoes.

Another time recently we did two (2) aborts just because of some stupid door warning light that we were 99.99% sure was just a mis-rigged switch. First they did that hasty tweaking of it, when it had checked okay but come on just before V1. The second time, ditto, when I told them to now take their time fixing it right; I was going for lunch to reduce the old stress levels.

I told the Chief Engineer that, yeah, I probably was being a bit picky there but how would I look if that big old main door came flopping open just as I rotated? I NEED to be famous as the guy who ignored the door warning light because he knew better? DeHavilland must have put that system on the airplane for a reason, right?

We can just build a safer way of operating one step at a time. It would be nice if teams of ICAO experts swooped down to sort out our African problems for us with coöperation at the very highest national levels but until that happens I guess it's up to us. And no fair for telling Management I am a wally for not taking a trip, okay? ("Me, Boss, me! I will do that trip/fly that bird/take that load without leaving anything behind!" Ever seen that one happen? No, me neither...)

A little off the subject but still on....
 

I recently finished my training for a PPL and am furthering my studies to CPL.

I am new to the aviaition industry but wish to voice my opinion on a few key issues related to this thread.

I have had training with multiple instructors and to ME it seems there is not a constant method of practice to instruct a wannabe pilot.
During the course of my studies I encountered a instructor that insisted the only way to land with a crosswind was using, ONLY, the crabbing technique.
On another occasion i was shown what the plane was "really" capable of, defying everything i had learnt in the technical about the constraints of the A/C.
On another occasion i was told to land even though i had not been cleared because " I'm a regular so its fine, they understand".

I dont want this coming across as a rant as it is not, I have utter respect for any instructor as I can understand how it is a talent in itself to become one. I do feel though that although this is not day to day teachings if subjecting someone who is easily influenced it could cause " if he can do it i can do it" mentality.

And when talking about the roots of the problem I think the training is as root as you can get..

OneDay

OneDay21,

It is a talent to instruct/teach properly and well. The guy that was so blase' abut the radio work pre-landing with you may not have been a day to day thing for you, but for the instructor it has become the norm as he is in and out that field eneough that the tower has got used to the fact that he has absolutely no discipline or respect for the regs and procedure and work around him.

You may have escaped the influence from him that it is perfectly OK to short-cut procedures, but the next guy may not, and HE may be the one that has a mid-air with you one day because the same instructor passed the message on that radio work is not really that big a deal, after all the tower know what's going on.
Except, the tower won't know what's going on UNLESS SOMEONE TELLS THEM. A bit of a Catch-22??

Most likely because it was the only way he knew how or rather, had actually perfected. Remember, instructors are people and the ego is an important facet of your instruction. An instructor who is weak in a particular field may not be up to telling you he doesn't know so he will alter the perception that the way that he does know is the only/best/preferred way.
Ditto the student's ego. All too often the instructor is a short jump ahead of his student in terms of actual hours and experience, and it is all too easy to adopt the mindset that anything he can do I can do better/faster/heavier/with less fuel etc etc.

I take my hat off to you for your post and the fact that you have identified one of the major players in this issue...

Now, remember what you have said and get out there and spread the word. :D:ok::D
All those guys that will call you a wimp/pu55ie/etc are WRONG!!:mad::=

Safety Record vs Instructor Experience
 

Could the problem perhaps be that the overall experience level of instructors, particularly at the ab-initio level, be part of the problem? Not really their fault though as this is often the only route to aquiring the hours and experience needed to qualify for that first "airline" job. Leaves the poor student at a disadvantage though as the instructor does not have a wide variety of non -GF/Circuit/Navex/Day VMC experiences to pass on to students thereby improving airmanship and decision making.

Also, being human, if instruction is a means to an end how good will the instructor ultimately be? To excel at something one must have a passion for it.

Apologies in advance to all the dedicated instructors out there who do not fit the above categories.

Dont get me wrong
 

My post might have come across as a generalisation of all instructors and i'd like to correct that.
Although I may have encountered this I have also encountered great instructors who have a talent and drive for instructing and who put, beyond everything else, safety first.

I just feel there should be a standard followed and more importantly ENFORCED, it should not be a student who brings these key issues up but rather the flightschool/CAA responsible for allowing that instructor to instruct.

I have indeed changed flight schools when I was in this situation and encountered it at the second flight school as well where i changed instructors to one that I feel was better suited.

I'm shotting myself in the foot bringing up these issues when in the end I want to become an instructor myself, never the less, rather an instructor preserving the industry than destroying it...

OneDay

OneDay, I admire you for sharing your story.

Instructors are the first line of defence against bad airmanship. As a student you do look at the instructor to teach you the "full package" that includes airmanship and safety conscious decision making. If they are lacking those skills themselves, it will take quite a strong student to recognise it and make the obvious more mature and safe decision to rather move to some place else. If you can do that, I recon you will get quite far in aviation.

Also agree with your last post that you can not generalize. There are some really good instructors out there. In the same breath, there are some bad students as well, that no matter how hard the instructor try to teach him, he "knows best". That is just as big a problem.

Also, if you get to a senior position (Captain, Chief Pilot, etc.) you must lead by example. I have seen to many times that as soon as some guys strap on that fourth bar, they turn into this know-it-all a:mad:oll and do whatever he thinks is best, regardless of the SOP, company policy, etc. and try to show his F/O how good he is.

So the problem is bigger than just one part of flying.

H.S.

Not all, but sadly too many, I think.

Quite the contrary!! The mere fact that you recognised an issue in your own training and remedied it shows that you are approaching this from the right perspective. You did not blunder on regardless with a substandard instructor and for that, I think you will do fine.

Having done instruction in SA and in the US, I find one of the major differences is in standardization. Since we are stuck with a system that forces people with 200 hours into instruction in order to gain experience, the FAA have made it a bit easier by having Practical Test Standards. These books are readily available and it makes it very clear what is required from students, instructors and examiners. I have done a few flight tests in the US and at all times I knew exactly what I was required to demonstrate and there were no shortcuts. My ATP test took 2.6 hours with a couple of refuellings because there were required maneuvers which needed to be completed before the examiner could legally sign me off. When in doubt, refer to the PTS. The PTS makes it a lot easier for a young and inexperienced instructor to find out what s/he is required to teach and how.

I have done even more flight tests in SA and the standards have sometimes been variable with no recourse to something like the PTS. When I did my flight instructors rating in SA, there was no syllabus and no "flight instructors handbook" to study from. Aeronav academy had published a book that was already old when I read it but I could find nothing published by the CAA. I have spent a lot of time outside SA recently so that may have changed, someone please correct me if it has.

I like the SA system of having different grades of instructor and I believe a new instructor should work under supervision of a more experienced one, it promotes safety and ensures compliance with the training standards, if the supervision is actually done. When an instructor shows contempt for authority or does not teach all that is required, what kind of pilot do you think that student will turn out to be? Proactive and responsible supervision will go a long way towards correcting that kind of attitude by catching it before it becomes a problem resulting in "cowboy" behaviour. I am off topic in this post as the original poster was lambasting Scully but the thread seems to have drifted towards flight instruction. I personally find nothing wrong in anything Scully has done and do not consider him to be a "cowboy" in any way.

Another big difference between the US and SA is the emphasis on accountability. If I, as the instructor, authorized a student or pilot to fly and they then had an accident or violated airspace, I was going to be answering some difficult questions from the FAA regarding the instruction I gave that pilot. Generally, the FAA treat you as an adult and a professional until proven otherwise and if you screw up you will answer for it, possibly by losing your license or facing criminal charges. I find the SA CAA to be quite toothless in disciplining those who transgress and until that changes there will be a continuing disregard of authority because there are no consequences to speak of.

I do not intend this as a rant against the CAA and I have had some really good instruction in SA but there is obviously a problem when looking at the amount of accidents recently. I would like to see the flight instruction industry in SA become more standardized and that will need to start with practical guidelines from the CAA. The only way for the CAA to garner some needed respect is to have and uphold standards and exercise the "authority" they have.

jab,

Just out of curiosity, do you use the PTS for the basis of your instruction in South Africa? I know it's a foreign standard, but I was curious as to what if any effect it has on your SA experience.
In the absence of any standard, surely a foreign one is better than nothing?

Just wondering.

Unstable Load

I don't use the PTS in SA but I do keep it handy and show it to students so that they are aware of it and I let them know how they can get one. Flight instruction everywhere shares the fundamental goal of teaching someone to fly and it is just the approach to it that may vary. Flying is flying, any experience helps and the same goes for instruction in my opinion.

I have my own bastardised training manual which I first started in SA and then added to in the US. I have to be very careful because there are such different ways of doing the maneuvers in the different systems. For example, the quick stop is done slightly differently under the FAA versus JAA systems and the JAA don't like it if you do the American version. Small stuff but it will make a difference when your student goes for his flight test if you have taught him incorrectly. This is not a problem when teaching within one system but it is something I need to concentrate on and I can fall back on the PTS.

There are standards in SA flying and in my travels I have generally found that standard to be quite high in comparison with pilots from other countries.

I have not done a lot of instruction and I would prefer someone more qualified to comment in this thread. It is my impression that the flight schools have different standards because the CAA has not set them clearly or enforced them enough. I think the training industry needs guidance and discipline from the CAA and thus far I have not seen it. I hope that changes.