Insulting Nigerian Aviation on Pprune
 

Based on CJ750 thread concerning the situation in Lagos, which I find totally absurd.

I have decided to print out as many copies as my baby printer will allow of this thread and also of a few other threads and post's made here on pprune by mostly expartriate pilots working in Nigeria for distribution to my fellow Nigerian Colleagues in Lagos.

Its cool to hide behind pprune and put out threads like this eeeeh, well lets see how this month goes once this gets out to the locals.

The Director General of the NCAA and I believe the Director of licensing will get an A4 size envelope with these threads. ;) , from me :E

Its quite clear that most if not all the expatriate pilots here in Nigeria are taking us for a ride, just like how they try to do in the middle east and asia (but the locals there just will not let them have it their way, so they moan and talk crap here on pprune).

No week goes by on pprune without one of these geezers throwing an open insult at Nigerian Aviation, in the full glare of the moderators.

Well maybe we should bring the lagos flying factor out unto the open tarmac now. Lets moderate it right here in Lagos.

This is going to be fun.

Remember if you get any of this threads either in your crew rooms or just handed out to you by another colleague to pass it on after you have read them.

Will be passing a few copies to the Lagos, Abuja and Port Harcourt Towers and also Kano control.

Well said mate!
Lets see how it happens when the table starts to turn!!!!!
Cheers.

Balewa,

Much as I understand where you're coming from, you have to understand that most of the guys making these statements are not the typical expats who are working in Nigeria and have been there awhile.
You typically have the 24hr wonder boys who come in, get dropped off at Sheraton and to them they have seen the country from North to South, East to West and are ready to say all sort of crap
Lets not make things difficult for the guys who make their daily living in Nigeria and have been acting in a mature manner. Trust me, they are the norm.

It's threads like this that cause further divides - you should ask yourself Balewa, are you helping things, or making them worse? I don't see how further polarising people, and making some poor pilot who happens to be an 'Expat' flying into Nigeria take flak from ATC or ground authorities is going to help change the perception people have about Nigeria. You'll just make things worse.

I can only suggest a more welcoming approach. It's only when people are pleasantly surprised will they go home thinking, 'Maybe I was wrong about that place, they're a nice bunch of people', and get others to change their minds. The fact of the matter is, peoples exposure to Nigerians in other countries is often a negative influence. Why don't you do what you can to change that, instead of attacking people? It's your choice...

So, Balewa...
 

You are the guy who thinks Arik is such a Good Thing, right? That would be the airline set up by some highly dubious characters using funds from... where?

Didn't your mother ever tell you the one about how people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? Or, in local terms, "A man who makes trouble for others only makes trouble for himself."

Yes, a lot of nonsense gets talked here about Nigeria. On the other hand some of you guy who think you are defending her image come across as ignorant and thuggish to your overseas audience.

For the time being you still need ex-pat pilots. Judging by what I read of Zaria this will continue for a few more years, just until the oil runs out. Until then you probably will have to learn to deal with this criticism and try to respond to it in a way that doesn't make you look even worse than your critics.

Prehaps if you chaps didn't keep getting arrested in foreign countries for drug trafficking and stopped overstaying your visas you would be more welcome.

Prehaps if you stopped the internet, mail and credit card fraud your reputations would improve.

Prehaps if you improved your law and order situation and removed corrupt officials people would be easier about doing business with you.

Just suggestions of course, but somethings you have to do yourselves.:E

Firstly, Well said Shrike, Chuks and Metro!!:D:D

Secondly, I'll take the bait on Balewas regular "fishing" trip!!;)

Interestingly this is the same Balewa who started a few other racist threads on PPRUNE recently. Seems to be pre-occupied with a strange agenda and trying to create problems where none exists (except in HIS warped mind!!) No doubt Balewa you want Nigeria for the Nigerians? Well, Balewa, mate, I hope you can get this programme up and running, just dont forget to remove the Nigerians criminals in South Africa back to your "own" country. We also want South Africa for the South Africans, you see. We will GLADLY let Nigeria be if you can do this!:ok:

As for wanting anything to do with Nigeria? Well, I have my own personal blacklist of countries I will have nothing to do with and Nigeria is number one on the list.:ok:

Balewa,

Grow up! You think the NCAA want even more useless paper? You think they don't have access to this forum already? You think many of the people here also don't know who you are? Act like a man, not a child

Balewa ....
 

Yawwwnnnn....

Please pass the pretzels. :ugh:

You guys better adjust your spam filters. I foresee loads of 419 emails coming your way. But for a fee....bla bla you know the story :{

Balewa
Don't forget to pay a bribe to whoever you want to read these posts you going to print. Because if you don't grease a palm, it ain't gonna get further than the desk you put it on!!! It is Nigeria after all, the bastion of honesty...

"Thank you for the pretzels dear...... another Pimms??":eek:

Make mine a Gin and Tonic, thanks

(Rather Colonial, don't you think? ):D

those in glass houses pls dont throw stones,the glass may just shatter and injure you as well:=

Yawn, I'll have a Pimms on the veranda.

Hellooooooooooo,

hmmmm I see the South African Terre blanche pprune army are here in full force eh.

Still trying to get your racist backsides into the UK and the Middle East eh well believe me we also having pretzels and pimms over here.

And while you Rednecks are at it, please more coal on the Bri.

Of all the ppruners to ask me to grow up, its you, TomBola...!!! you grow up Papi := come on then, spill it, who am I, pheeeeeeew :rolleyes:

Chuks look at you after all these years, := why not try the Rotor page eh :yuk:, how,s the retirement going eh and stop telling lies on pprune and go back out to ur back garden the cucumbers need watering.

Balewa
In the absence of anything intelligent to say, play the racist card. Its like a get out of jail free card. At first I just thought you were a twit. Now I know you are a twit.
Another spread kicks the bucket...

Just to further rain on our racist Nigerian "chums" parade
 

The following are just some of the aviation achievements South Africans can be proud of. Care to name a few Nigerian achievements? (apologies to the mods as this was copied from another avaition site)



"What springs to mind immediately is what this littel African Country has achieved - this might fall under broad marketing of commercial nature - hehe

1. MGL Avionics- building in our very own country an Efis system that serves the world at a fraction of the price

2. Aerosud - Designing and manufacturing for all the great Aviation companies in the world inlcuding Boeing, Airbus , Spirit , Agusta and BAe

3. Adept Airmoitive- designed and built an AIRCRAFT engine in AFRICA - truly great

4. SUNSAT - launching our very own satelites - hopefully soon from South African grounds

5. Avitronics - building the worlds best missile detection system for aircraft

6. Rotorway - building helicopter for the world in our very own country -South Africa

7. Denel - even though they are going through tough times - they are building a missile - the A Darter - a fifth generation missile, of which only the US, Russia, French ( I think) and mmm. one other country can match.

8. Comair, Safair, Naturelink, Kulula, Mango, 1 - Time, Airlink and a whole bunch of other carriers - with excellent safety records and making our lives easier every day - try and travel in Mozambique.

9. Then the homebuilts like Bushbaby and the trike companies which all build homegrown airies.

10. We actually have Pratt and Whitney here - doing remanufacturing on PT-6 engines - not a lot of those places in the world.

11. Comair - one of the oldest Cessna dealers in the WORLD

12. A Shuttle Landing facility - still unclear if its Upington or Hoedspruit.

13. TVOS/TFDC - our very own aircraft, missile and bomb test facility - looks like NASA in some of the buildings there.

14. Raven and SLick - to home-grown honeys - with great people like Glen Dell and Jan Trosky getting those things off the ground

15. Stellenbosch University with their huge aero department

16. CSIR windtunnels - huge - for every size and speed you can dream up - with people like Peter Skinner

17. Individuals like John Sayers and Stu Davidson keeping our older collections alive.

18. PLENTY aerobatic teams - gosh - MAZDA ZOOM ZOOM, SILVER FALCONS, Chubb?

19. All the enthusiasts flying anything form paragliders and hang gliders, to private jets and ex-military planes like Thundercity's Lightnings -


Hell - I say lets support our country and it effort - PS sorry for all those I forgot - please add your stuff. Without them - what would we talk about."

Balewa!
 

Now it comes back to me! At first I thought you must have been in the right seat with me at some time, but no, I would have remembered you better.

You were the guy who used to drive the tractor for Precision, right, towing the honey-bucket.

Respect, Bro'! You have moved up in the world since then.

Me, no cucumbers, just a JAR licence and a job as a Twin Otter pilot. No more jet job, boo-hoo! Feel better now?

Rooinecks I have no problem with. At least they are easy to share the skies with, no cutting in front or babbling abuse on an active ATC frequency like some people I could name.

Hmmm I thought long and hard before I decided to comment on this thread.

BALEWA I do not think that your planned action serves the best interests of Nigerians. It is divisive and would only give those who like to deride Nigeria more ammunition to distort and misuse.

I like the idea put forward earlier that the way to defeat the bigots is a charm offensive rather than aggression. My views on Nigeria are favourable because my time there was very enjoyable, and it was made enjoyable by the people I worked with, and those I encountered in other companies and socially. This mix of people who made my time enjoyable were from many nationalities, but predominantly Nigerian and Ghanaian.

I was shown around V.I.and Lagos Island by one of our drivers on a quiet Sunday morning. He was pleased to have someone who wanted to see around the area rather than just sit in the hotel bar swapping horror stories. We even went for a stroll down Bar Beach. We were hassled a little by beach hawkers but a firm 'no thank you' saw them disappear. It isn't a holiday beach by any means but it had a lot of people on it enjoying the simple act of being by the ocean. The beaches near Lekki have potential to be very nice beaches.

I think your actions could take away the opportunity for an expat to explore Nigeria, and instead create an atmosphere of distrust and dislike.

Someone else stated that the majority of expats doing the moaning on here are not those who stay and take part in life, but those who come and do not get on with the hustle bustle and hardships of life in Lagos. I think that is fair comment.

Me, I have forgotten about the dreadful roads, the constant power cuts and the high price of Star and Gulder......... but I remember clearly the laughter and fun that I had on nights out on V.I. with my Nigerian colleagues. Bacchus Bar in Ikoyi with it's customers all 'dressed to impress' is as good an up market bar as you'll get anywhere, and there are others as well.

To overcome the negativity it needs Nigerians to be better people than those hurling the insults. They need to continue to offer the hand of friendship, even if the hand is ignored by a few for the first few times. There are many more decent Nigerians than there are crooks and ne'er do wells, and it is their voice of friendship that needs to be heard.

Jamex what was the point of your post? If you cannot see the difficulties in SA at the moment then you are indeed blinkered. Not all the crime is carried out by foreigners, and your government is not exactly squeaky clean if some of the allegations agianst some senior members of it are to be believed.

Balewa take a deep breath, and don't let the vitriol get to you.

Quote "Jamex what was the point of your post? If you cannot see the difficulties in SA at the moment then you are indeed blinkered. Not all the crime is carried out by foreigners, and your government is not exactly squeaky clean if some of the allegations agianst some senior members of it are to be believed."

You asked for the point of my post and so here's my answer. I am a South African and sick and tired of the racial card being played and my country denigrated by morons who just want to spout off, even when they have nothing intelligent to add. I wander whether Balewa ever actually visited SA, as he seems to base his opinions and "facts"on the old ANC propaganda films made during the apartheid era. I never ever said, nor implied, that SA is squeaky clean. But then hell, show me the country that is. Your own country does not stand up too well to the type of scrutiny you and your "friends" continually place mine under. Look at whats happening in Kenya right now after the elections. It also seems things are not so good currently with the Nigerian government. No single country has a monopoly on problems and I assure you, working for the official opposition party in SA, I know more than most people what is actually happening in my country. I certainly removed any blinkers I may have had right about the time you guys joined the US to bomb the crap out of Iraq! Whenever anyone dares to portray my country in a fair or positive light, then we have to have all the old worn out cliches and political agendas once again polished up and pushed out into the sun light so that these types can feel good about themselves. I note your good advice to friend Balewa and can only wander at your own agenda. He starts the stone hurling exercise every time and every time you feel compelled to jump to his defence! Why is this? Could it be that you feel, due to your own white skin superiority complex maybe, that he is unable to defend his pathetic actions? Well, friend, this is the worst form of racism and certainly not appreciated by any self-respecting black person who does not want nor need patronising whites around him/herself. So my advise to you is, get some help or get over yourself. As a South African white I am proud of my country and proud of her achievements. Should you wish to continue the discussion in person I would willingly let you have my telephone number and address and extend an invitation to call on me for a one-on-one chat should you ever be in SA. PM me for my details.

surelynot,

I wish I had your way with words. I actually tried to post something earlier, but Prune seems to be having some problems (or maybe it's just my slow server). It would be pointless trying to post what I was trying to say earlier, because you've said it all - only much better.

Jamex,

A good reply and you made your point very well.

I think it's time to put this to bed now isn't it? Sadly, I doubt it, but let's hope everyone has learned something. Older, yes; wiser :confused:

Hello Tombola been a while :E nice to see the ol ppruners are still on the prowl, just like old times.

Just a quick question concerning your remarks to Jamex, and what exactly was his point, and not to worry Sir, you do not have to respond with my dear friend, surely not's extraordinary way with words .

Zazoo

Since the gloves seem to be off, have a look at this.
The guy has a valid argument. It may be in the American setting, but it applies everywhere. Somehow, playing the race card seems to be an act of irresistible necessity for some.....


Michael Richards better known as Kramer from TV's Seinfeld,
does make a good point.

This was his defense speech in court after making racial
comments in his comedy act. He makes some very interesting
points.

Proud To Be White:

Someone finally said it.
How many are actually paying attention to this?

There are African Americans, Mexican Americans,
Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc.
And then there are just Americans.

You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction.
You Call me 'White boy,' 'Cracker,' 'Honkey,'
'Whitey,' 'Caveman' ... and that's OK.

But when I call you, Nigger, Kike, Towel head,
Sand-nigger, Camel Jockey, Beaner, Gook, or Chink ....
You call me a racist.

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you,
so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?

You have the United Negro College Fund.
You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Black History Month.
You have Cesar Chavez Day.
You have Yom Hashoah.
You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi.
You have the NAACP.
You have BET.
If we had WET (White Entertainment Television) we'd be
racists.
If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.
If we had White History Month , we'd be racists.
If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance'
OUR lives we'd be racists.

We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber
of Commerce, and then we just have the plain Chamber of
Commerce.
Wonder who pays for that?


A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American
pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.


If we had a college fund that only gave white students
scholarships you know we'd be racists.
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges
in the US. Yet if there were 'White colleges' THAT
would be a racist college.


In the Million Man March, you believed that you were
marching for your race and rights. If we marched for
our race and rights, you would call us racists.

You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and
you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce
our white pride, you call us racists.

You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a
white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats
up a black drug-dealer running from the law and posing a
threat to society, you call him a racist.

I am proud.
But you call me a racist.

Why is it that only whites can be racists?

Good stuff Rockpecker from a white boy who has lived and worked in Nigeria and although European by birth now lives in the good ole USA.

Even though I am white and proud of it, because I do not speak "American", I get all sorts of racist comments made at me, I just let it roll off my back.

As a very good african friend of mine used to say, "Life is like a sh*t sandwich, the more bread you have, the less sh*t you eat", my reply to that was quite simply, "no situation is permanent".

A detail to correct, Jamex (in between all the PC rage...)
The Shuttle landing facility is apprently in Dakar, and previously in The Gambia, not Upington or Hoedspruit. I had a thread on this a few months back.

Thank you for your correction james ozzie but maybe the following will serve as an update for you?

"The following image if from a PDF document obtained from a US source that works for NASA.
Its from the STS-114 training documents and it lists all the emergency landing sites ( there were more listed on the next page )

You will see Hoedspruit listed near the top"



Nasa1.jpg Description: Filesize: 173.76 KB Viewed: 1088 Time(s)
http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/files/nasa1_163.jpg

Thanks for the update Jamex. I see Amberely is also approved - just a few ks from where I am sitting.

As far as I can glean, only about 3 of the sites are active on an STS mission - needs loads of kit for defuelling etc etc. The 3 sites are chosen for the abort modes at launch & I gather are abandoned as soon as it reaches orbit, from where it can always abort back to the USA.

But lets get back to the handbag swinging on this thread...

no sheraton for me! second rate hotel (if you can call it that). did a full year no wonder boy here! and not many expat's that i know left at the company.

AVSEC posted on another thread, which has now been closed, comments on the situation in the UK.

I have also posted comments on the UK in other threads. In one of which I refered to the UK as "a drug addicted, alcohol fueled, cess pit". Several people from the UK replied agreeing to this.

Most of his comments I agree with, especially the effects of binge drinking. There are many threads on Jet Blast concerning the UK, especially "chavs" (British white trash)

Why not stick to Nigeria on this thread ?

I tell it like it is. When I can post about what a safe place Moss Side or Kirby is, and how well behaved the teenagers are, I will. A British father was recently kicked to death by a gang of teen hooligans, simply for complaining about their behaviour.

If I was in the UK I would feel very nervous about walking past a gang of white trash teenagers dressed in white tracksuits, fake Burberry caps and gold chains.

When people can post comments on how safe Lagos is at night, how effeciently things work and how few Nigerians are being arrested for drug trafficking, I will be the first one to post.

In the meantime why not stick to the facts ?

Again, digressing a bit from the original and admittedly ridiculous post but any idea what the outcome was of that Michael Richards (Kramer) race trial?

We all have our crosses to bear...
 

"Racism" is like pornography: hard to define but everyone knows it when they see it! Problem is, what you see, I might not see and vice-versa.

I often had people pull out the "race card" during my time in Nigeria. It's just something one has to put up with, I guess. Once in a while I had to admit my accuser was probably right, come to that. You really cannot sort out your thoughts and feelings to the degree that your average idealist might like you to. It would be like watching the video replay versus being in the game; sometimes we get it wrong in the heat of the action.

There's a real problem in Nigeria with people seeing things just the way they are presented to them. There used to be a fellow who was operating "the largest airline in Africa" with a scandalous number of ex-pat engineers going unpaid who was noted for disbursing local funds out the window of his car to the joy of the general populace in his town.

It used to be so that one could steal millions and then hand out hundreds of thousands to be greeted as some sort of philanthropist. Well, desperate people just learn not to ask too many questions, I think.

I'm up in North Africa now. There are the locals and the South Africans as the African contingent and a broad swathe of Europeans, the odd Canadian and me as the token Yankee. I think I am just the same as I used to be in Nigeria but the funny thing is, no one seems to think that I am any sort of racist! Perhaps getting that JAR licence made a better person out of me.

When you look at the problems in Nigeria I think you can exercise a lot of tolerance when the odd post here pops up with some weird combination of threats and boasts. CJ750 probably could have been more diplomatic in his request for information about Lagos, but look what he got in return! A neutral observer might well think that, yes, there are some problems there when he can read something along the lines of, "My country is great and I will make big trouble for anyone who says different!"

You don't see the South Africans threatening trouble in that way. I wonder why that is? (Just a rhetorical question there: please, please, do not bother to tell me why!)

Perhaps if and when Nigerian airlines start operating more flights outside the country then the indigenous pilots will calm down a bit with all this shouting about how good their standards are compared to everyone else's. Too, they might take some of what they learn abroad home. We all have something to learn from other cultures, even one you might think of as flawed by "racism," just for one.

chuks,
I find your comments hard to believe, i quote:
I must say that you may have been looking around for such, expecting that this was an unavoidable sequence of events in Nigeria.
Contrary to average belief, Nigerians do like whites and dont ever discriminate against them when in Nigeria. It is also true however,that generally Nigerians WILL take offence when the country is perceived to be under racial, or political attack.
Well, there, i do agree with you wholly. An obvious result of what i stated above.
Well, you didn't want an answer, but, here's one.
The south africans sorry to say, have racial issues continuously, we, on the other hand, dont!
I fail to see where anyone was threatened? As you may have noticed, it does get Nigerians going when the facts are distorted or when some go out of their way to just malign Nigeria.
It is a strong nation with obvious problems, but very proud people who will not back down particularly against what is perceived as a racial slur or outright disregard for those that try their best to help curb our excesses.
This, i will agree with totally mate. You may want to have a word with the politically inclined pilots here and probably give them some insight.:ok:
Metro man,
I quote:
The difference is, you'll never find Nigerians criticizing the UK or any other country for that matter unless provoked, we do have enough problems of our own, so, we stay out of those of others.
Its a simple case of remove the log in your own eye first!:ok:

Well...
 

that "race card" was sometimes played when I was looking on, not on me!

I remember once when I was on my way to lunch from the old Warri Airstrip, in a crew bus. Some local loon, who proved to have been nipping at the "ogogoro," backed out and slammed right into the side of our bus!

He came weaving out of his "beetle" to see why his car had stopped moving to be confronted by a group of guys dressed in uniform. The one of us who tried to reason with him was immediately told, "You ah YELLOW MAN!" That silly bush man just kept shouting that until some of his comrades began to gather with a certain air of menace so that we disentangled his dog-knotted little crap-box and went on our way in our remodelled crew bus. So someone who is pure black has right-of-way over someone who is mixed-race? Good thing to bear in mind, eh? Sounds like racism to me, but what do I know?

I am not particularly sensitive to this sort of stuff, not being much of a liberal, I guess, but I just noted it down for future reference when it happened and I tell you that it happened reasonably often in Nigeria. Bear in mind we are speaking here of a period of about 25 years. I am not saying that it was an every-day occurrence, just that the card often was pulled when you had someone there with his arm up to the elbow in the cookie jar; it was the last refuge.

You guys need to work on your presentation; I can tell you that much. Nigeria itself I enjoyed for the most part but not long ago I was asking my present boss if, say, I came up with a possible contract there, what about it? Ever seen a guy with a snake dropped in his lap? He couldn't back away fast enough from the idea of even thinking about it! Never been there, just heard all the stories. Too bad, eh?

Remember this?.

http://www.arikjobs.com/images/diversity298x420.jpg

You cant ignore the facts. Nigeria is just not a place you can put a rosy spin on. Not a year goes by that something dodgy - if not an A/C accident - happens. Ive had the "pleasure" of visiting Kano and Lagos, neither impressed me very much. I might be one of the in-and-outs you talk about, and by the way the Sheraton is very nice. Not once have I been there when there wasnt a cock-up. Number 3 in line for take-off, in a que of about 10 A/C, only 1 runway in operation, took us 45min before take-off. AWESOME ATC, you can see the A/C on final, and at least 1 (more probably 3) could take-off inbetween landings..but nooooo.." I call you back when I feel like it " Imagine the whole worlds ATC had that attitude, if I cant give u an awnser Ill just keep quiet..then problem she go away..

Since this thread is titled Nigerian Aviation, I wont even go into the corruption and traffic and services in and around the airport..

You can keep Nigeria Balewa, sounds like you are right where you belong, I hope you got satisfaction when you handed out your printouts, although I sincerely doubt it, the only way controlling could be worse is if there was none at all....o wait...that would actually be safer and more productive..

Zoltan,

I couldn't agree with you more about ATC, inadequate training and lack of exposure to more modern procedures has produced the current phenomena. But trust me, the guy is not ignoring you because he feels like it, he's working with very limited skills, equipment and outdated procedures. We feel the same way just like you do in situations like this.
Chuks,
Agreed, perception can be a problem, I believe like you rightly said, if we are open to each other we can see alot of positives in each other.
Just like someone coming to the southern part of the US and assuming all whites there are racist. I find that ridiculous, and like I explain to 1st time visitors to the US, how you present yourself to others determine the feedback you get from them. Irrespective of race, people want to be respected and appreciated. Calling a southerner a country bumpkin is not a very smart thing to do.
I guess we should all keep our prejudice opinions aside and learn from each other.

belawa hello it if the fuel tank is at a low of peterol then you can just put a bit of water it will work trusty me your are a good at piloting it is aaaa in ure bloode my friendy!!!
morphy!!!!!!

Ya well no fine.
 

At first this thread intrigued me, then it started to bore me and just as I was about to dis it, it made me sad. It saddened me that grown intelligent men(if any lady contributed I stand corrected) would waste the time available to them to take part in blowing at this the glowing embers of a fire that never dies. A fire that consumes intellect, compassion, understanding and reason.
"I read once that xenophobia is based on a lack of understanding, is devoid of reason that is caused by lack of knowledge and has as its basis, self doubt." One of the wisest men of our time said that. I leave you to find his name, at least its a better way to waste time.
The starter of this topic indicated, his fear in the form of hate speech. One by one, the rest have followed choosing sides. Some voices of reason were shouted down because they were saying it to nicely.
Do I need remind you what hate speech has caused in the world to date, apart from Two world wars, genocide in Rwanda, disappearance of whole peoples on each continent to name a few.
What am really amazes me, is that this thread has been binned yet.
And I am not supporting either side.
Mr Mod my vote will say bin it.

Clearly. Right from the start of the thread.

You are right, contraxdog. This argument, in all of history, has never reached saturation, nor will it ever. We do not learn from the past.
Neither is this forum capable of resolving issues of political and social philosophy that have plagued our species since the dawn of time. This thread, and the likes of those who start such threads, will only divide further. If these issues cannot be resovled in the highest gatherings of tribal leadership, how could it here?
Yip, bin it.