Pilots License vs. Diploma vs. Degree
 

I have always wondered why a commercial license/instructors rating/airline transport license is not granted the same recognition as tertiary qualifications such as degrees and diplomas.

Whenever you fill out any formal application for finance etc, if you are a professional pilot, your highest level of education would be the last standard you passed in high school eg Matric or Std 9.

This is of course a huge insult to me as a professional pilot because I believe I worked very hard to achieve my pilot qualification (as an aside I also have an undergraduate degree and am able to compare work loads etc and by the time you have your ATP I reckon you will have put some serious studying hours in, equaling or nearly equaling a 3-year degree, at the very least a 2-year technical diploma with practical work experience giving you your third year) and I believe my qualification should be recognised.

Is this phenomenon specific to South Africa or is it a global issue?:ugh:

The reason might be because pilots can't spell. "Licence" isn't spelt "lisence"! How many folk out there know the difference between "licence" and "license"?

Generally, pilots' spelling is atrocious, and its sometimes embarrassing. I try to use a dictionary if I'm not sure of a spelling when posting (which is quite often!).


Fluffyfan, no offense, but I think you should check out the difference between "there", and "their".

Someone told me the other day that the SA Education Department have recognised a SA ATP licence the equivalent of a Honours Degree. JB, I do agree with that you are saying.

hmm:

It is global but it is not an issue.
Just fill in any form that requires your higher educational qualifications thus:

BA/BSc. (ATPL/Aviation.)

In my case I have always continued in this vein:

BA/BSc equiv. (ATPL/Aviation.) UK.USA.RSA. Botswana)
or, if you feel suitably grandiose, make it an MA/MSc!

Never had a query on it and would defend my right to do so so quite vigorously.

Most of the people who read those forms are unable to interpolate beyond a two syllable word anyway.:D

the rane in spaine is manely on the pleine!!!!!

Gyro Nut, would it not be a better idea to use spell check than pull out a dictionary, who uses those things these days???:ugh:

...Those of us who spell flavour with a "U"...:E

As they say in the classics "six munch ago I coerren even spel enjineer now I are wun!"

No offense ment. Their you go agian.

By the bye, how does one use a dictionarey if you can't spell anyway??

Bye. Off to buy the latest from Mr. Oxford, that erudite man of letters. French, you know. :E

Thats why everything is abbreviated ATC, IFR, RWY, VOR.... There is usually a list of abbreviation at the beginning of AIP's or Jepp Charts. :cool:

SAASFO,
Whoever you are? You're a genius!!!!
I was just thinking of that. Nice one!!:ok:

Nah!


Pilots are just a bunch of glorified bus drivers in any case....:E

Digree vs Diploma
 

Hey JB,

Why not join the mass exidus from your beluvit cuntree and move to ostralia.

Seems their is a digree offered by Australian International Aviation Training Agency.

Cheque out there websight : http://www.australianaviationtrainin...on_degrees.htm

:hmm:
Pilots parading as glorified bus drivers? Surely that can hardly be the case! A gross example of wishful social climbing, worthy of the most un-noteworthy element of urban insignificance.
Any casual examination of pilots' external appearance at South African airfields will reveal that Putco bus drivers look smarter. Intellectually they probably are as well!:p

C or S
 

Mr W, the font of all knowledge quotes:

"A license (also spelled licence) is the document demonstrating that permission. ... Obtaining a licence is required of a number of occupations and "blah blah blah...


So their we are there then.

windy

Ozzie
 

Thanks Yokeman, but I reckon there will be too much competition for jobs in Oz what with all the SAA guys going over there...their....they're....thar...had you going Gyro Nut, actually do know the correct spelling to this one; there now (just kidding guys, really do feel for you at SAA, hope you all come right with the powers that be and that you all get back the job security you have worked hard to achieve and deserve IMHO)

The thread was started not so much because I yearn for recognition of what I have achieved, I am comfortable with myself, but rather, if the economy as a whole does not recognise professional flight crew as such ie professionals with professional qualifications, then is it any wonder we get shafted when it comes to salaries etc?

Correct me if I am wrong here, but ours is one of the few professions which carries a potential jail sentence if we are negligent in the fulfilment of our duties. That requires the highest possible standards from all of us at all times.

The reason an ATPL is not recognised as the equal of a degree is because it is no where near the level or close to the amount of work needed to achieve a degree.

6 months studying parrot fashion to pass a set of multiple guess type questions, and you think that equals 3 or 4 years worth of work with essays and dissertations?

Get real people, it is considered as a professional position only because in the old days only wealthy people, who had normally been educated to a 'professional' standard could afford to undertake the training.

Doctors who have a practical job with theory at its base, similar to pilots I think, study for 7 years and call themselves professionals, not sure our training practically or academically really compares to theirs.

What South Coast said.
While it would be nice to be recognised as having a higher qualification by financial intitutions etc, comparing a CPL to a degree, and an ATP to something like a Masters, is only valid when it comes to (sometimes) the amount of time it takes. A relative recently obtained a Masters in Project Management. It was only part time, and took two years. The amount of work involved made studying for Comm/ATP look absolutely trivial. I know in flying that building the hours takes time, but it's hardly comparable to putting in the research for a thesis (for example), which at that level is generally a hell of a lot of work.

I suppose we're like artisans/tradesmen. Something like that.

I agree with south coast (hope all's well with you! long time no see)

I have a BSc which I spent three hard years studying for, culminating in numerous very tough three hour written examinations to test not only knowledge but ability to reason and show original thought.

I also have a South African ATPL which took eight weeks of study to pass eight very straightforward Comm exams, followed later by six weeks of very part time study to pass seven even more straightforward ATP exams. The fact that only six weeks were required for the ATP was that Met only took a long evening.

14 weeks equivalent to a degree? Maybe in the new South Africa; nowhere else.

Degree vs.diplomas
 

Pilots parading as glorified bus drivers? Surgeons parading as butchers....

Postmen parading as:

Postman Pat, postman Pat,Postman Pat and his black & white cat...early in the morning.....:hmm:

So what's the issue guys. I have been putting down matric as highest education qualification and ATPL as other qualifications for the last 26 years and never had a problem or been turned down for anything I might have applied for. Be proud of your "meagre" ATPL or SAAF wings, not everyone can achieve those accomplishments either. A fair number of my colleagues at school that went off and got various degrees have not exactly ended up as success stories or as well off as myself, but yes they can all fill in bank applications and whatever else with a degree in the right box.

Flyer

The time it takes to get a 'heavy' on ones ATPL is just time doing the job. It is not like it is studying or carrying out research and writing dissertations.

We all enjoy the job we do, but we should accept it for what it is, an Airline Transport Pilots Licence, not a BA or MBA or BSc or Phd, its just an ATPL.

Reasons why flightcrew are not treated as professional
 

I have been reading these posts, as well as various others on similar subjects. There seems to be a general concern among flightcrew regarding this topic. They generally feel that they are not recognized as professional, neither does their salaries increase as a professional person's would. The solution to this is not as obvious as one might think, since one needs to look at both sides of the coin (from both the crew and the industry side). I feel I am qualified since I have both professional and pilot qualifications Here are a few points to ponder:

* Pilots feel they should be regarded as professionals. This is true, since they
are expected to work professionally at all times.

* Pilots feel their qualifications should be regarded as a degree. This is not
necessarily true. Even though it is hard work to become a pilot. The
academic standard and sheer workload is not nearly as much as a four
year degree in Engineering for example. We pilots are lucky that all the
questions are multichoice.

* Pilots do carry the tremendous responsibility of people's lives when they
are flying. Even though some professions like engineers may have a legal
appointment, they rarely die with their subordinates (pax) if something
goes wrong.

* The industry expects pilots to pay for their own ratings even after they
gained their licenses. I do not agree with this, since the pilot has already
spent a fortune on just getting qualified to get a low time job. Expecting
pilots to pay to work at a company is just wrong. If I apply for a job and
they tell me I need to pay money to work there, I will show them the
bird.

From the industry side, the following points are valid:

* We pilots like the attention that comes with the job. We also like to be the best. As such, we will always strive to fly the newest and best aircraft. In order to do this, the pilots will move on as soon as they have enough experience. The industry knows this, that is why they will keep on regarding pilots as a temporary expense. As such, the salaries will be as low as possible. They are also no willing to invest a large amount of money into someone who will only be at the company for a year or two.

* In another type of professional job, the salary normally grows because
the person has more experience that can be utilized in other positions. In
other words, the longer you work, the more valuable you are to the
company. You can be a manager and bring in more value to the company
than when you were first employed. When you are first employed as a
pilot, you fly the aircraft, as you gain experience, you become better,
but you still only fly the aircraft. You feel that you deserve a raise based
on your hours, but the company feels that you are still doing the same
job that you did when you started there. You cannot be employed in
another position, and you will not be happy there, because you want to
fly. You never went to flight school because you want to manage a
charter company one day.

I hope these few thoughts provide some insight into a much debated topic.

Regards and happy landings

Schmieglie

If my memory servers me correctly, an ATPL with a certain amount of command hours is classified as a "RVQ-13" by the state. RVQ13 is an equivalency rating of matric plus 3 years formal education, and is used by the government to compare tertiary education between Varsities, Technicons on Industry specific certifications. A degree is RVQ13, as is a Tech diploma, certain on the job training programs, and lots of IT international certifications.

So, at least in the Govenments eyes, an Airline Capt has a degree equivalent education ;)

Because anyone with a few working brain cells can get a Comm, ATP or IR. The same unfortunately cannot be said for most degrees.

I don't know what you studied mate, but I barely put in the same hours for ALL the ATP subjects that I spent on one subject before exams at varsity.

I don't know why some pilots want to compare us with graduates and other professionals. We are professional pilots and should be proud of that fact alone. The same goes for pay. We are worth what we are worth. Sometimes pilots are scarce and we are worth a lot. Other times, work is scarce and we are worth less. It doesn't matter what doctors, lawyers and engineers earn. They can't fly and we can't do their jobs.

BA Sociology





...'Nuff said...

Engineering degrees
 

Say Engineering to a English layman and they think of the person who services your boiler or fixes your car. :(

Just because you have a degree it doesn't mean you are recognised for it. A Proffessional Engineer with many years services that is liable for large projects and runs the risk of jail in a foreign country if he screws up is still regarded as an engineer, which as I said in many peoples eyes is someone who turns a spanner...

At least a pilot in many peoples eyes is still clearly a pilot and despite what some may think this is highly respected by the masses.:D

Be proud to say that you are a highly qualified pilot as most people out of the cockpit think CPL, ATPL.... are just letters and may as well be MEng or Phd.

Oh and yes I am an engineer :ugh:and a pilot :cool:.

How long did you spend servicing boilers then?

:hmm:

It's an unfortunate but probably true fact that these days a South African university qualification, or a pilot's licence for that matter, are indicative of nothing more than an ability to achieve nothing very much whilst simply awaiting the foregone results of reflective advantage. As such, one might just as well mail order the piece of parchment from Harare with Ebagum's signature on the flapping seal for all the international credence that such variations on the theme of Bronco Lane might afford.:p

diploma all the way:)

The reason it's not recognised is because you can obtain the qualification without finishing school, maybe you should try doing a degree to compare the two.

At best it should be the same as a tech diploma, maybe that's too generous.

Under one defintion, a professional is one who is paid to work, as opposed to an amateur who "does it" for fun - perhaps the best meaning in the aviation context.
.
The word has another meaning that refers to the responsibility for the professionals advice and decisions. A doctor, laywer, accountant and consulting engineer are all required to carry professional indemnity insurance. Here in Australia, it is typically $10m cover per claim. A broker told me that a professional consulting engineer who has more than two PI claims against him/her is unlikley to be able to get further cover - bye bye career!
.
This is in contrast to other occupations claiming to be professional, such as real eatate agents, who carry very little responsibility for their advice. Unfortunately, people such as these have corrupted the meaning of the word to the point that anyone who wears a tie & sits in front of a computer now call themselves "professional"

Gyro

although I do thank you for correcting my spelling, at least I dont speak fluent Bulls:mad:it

Any Moron can get an ATP....it just takes time and effort, not everyone can get a degree, that takes a lot more time and a lot more effort, and a few years off your life

i want to digress a little. which is more expensive?Obtaining a degree and or an ATPL license?:ugh:

You can't work full time while getting a degree, so taking loss of earnings into account, the degree is more expensive.

:hmm:

One of the foundation stones of the Open University is that professional men and women should be able to work while furthering their education. The university bestows both BAs and MAs upon completion of the relevant and internationally recognised courses. It just takes a little longer than the full tilt, residential, beer swilling, fornicating variety. But then the concept is directed at mature men and women.:ouch:

Agree, depending on the degree. A dedicated person can complete a degree part time whilst working. Takes a little longer, though.

Most people here want there ATP's to be equal to a professional degree like engineering, medicine, etc. I want to see you do those part-time.......................

You can do Law part-time, but at some stage you will have to do the article phase and/or write the bench exams, and believe me, those cannot be compared to ATP subjects.

That's why I said depending on the degree. I agree fully that an ATPL is not equivalent to an engineering or a medical degree and not all degrees can be done part-time.

This years UCT rates are about R24,000 tuition fees for the year. Average that out over 4 years, and you are looking at about R100,000 for the degree. If you stay in res, add another R25,000 per year, so another R100,000. All in all, you are looking at walking out of varsity having spent about R200,000 to sit in the classes, write the exams, eat their food, and sleep in their beds. ;)

In addition to this, most natural sciences related careers require some sort of industry training/certification, so add to this figure at least two years worth of on the job training at minimum wage, plus expensive international certification exams. Companies dont do this training for free, so most grads are expected to sign training bonds of at least two years post qualification. So, in summary, it takes 8 - 10 years before you start earning decent money and you certifications are paid for. If you have taken a student loan to pay for this, starting varsity at 18 means that most succesful sciences grads will only be debt free and beginning to make money round about their 30th birthday. This is round about the time the whole cycle starts again because to get anywhere in engineering you need a masters of something degree (be it a MBA or MSc)...

:hmm:
Oh well!
In the UK from start up to frozen ATPL apparently costs about £50,000. That's roughly SAR750,000 and that's without eating or sleeping.
In financial terms then, an ATPL must be approaching a doctorate.:eek: