green leader passes on
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A voice and a radio broadcast I will never forget, one pf the defining moments of the war against terrorism. That lovely Rhodesian accent and the calm clear delivery. RIP Chris and thanks.
Green Leader
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I just picked this up from the Military thread...posted some years ago!
"There is a rumour that he flies freight and that he gets great pleasure in using his distinctive voice as he says "Aaah good afternoon Lusaka tower this is ...."
Brilliant!
"There is a rumour that he flies freight and that he gets great pleasure in using his distinctive voice as he says "Aaah good afternoon Lusaka tower this is ...."
Brilliant!
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Had Zambia gone ahead and put up some Mig 21s I suspect we may have had to suffer a little less Rhodesian arrogance!! An impressive raid, but in the face of ZERO opposition, not overly daring.
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It wasn't about arrogance, or daring, and it wasn't a quarrel with the government of Zambia. It was a strike against Rhodesian dissidents who had based themselves on Zambian soil and were waging a guerilla war against the Rhodesian government and people.
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I suspect if they'd tried with CD and colleagues in just that position to deal with them, there may have been a couple less Migs on the Zambian strength.
Who knows? As it was, their purpose there was fulfilled.
Who knows? As it was, their purpose there was fulfilled.
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I knew, and used to fly with, an ex ZAF Mig pilot. He had been trained both in the UK and Russia and was a very high calibre pilot. He also happened to be the first Zambian pilot to break the sound barrier.
He was at Mumbwa Airbase that day and was itching to get airborne, but the directive from Kenneth Kaunda was to stay on the ground.
A Mig 21 in the hands of a competent and committed pilot is a potent force, and I suspect a few less Canberras and Hunters would have been transiting back across the border home!
The fact remains, although it was an impressive and daring raid, still it was carried out in the face of ZERO opposition, and so I'm still surprised the Rhodesians are held in such awe!
He was at Mumbwa Airbase that day and was itching to get airborne, but the directive from Kenneth Kaunda was to stay on the ground.
A Mig 21 in the hands of a competent and committed pilot is a potent force, and I suspect a few less Canberras and Hunters would have been transiting back across the border home!
The fact remains, although it was an impressive and daring raid, still it was carried out in the face of ZERO opposition, and so I'm still surprised the Rhodesians are held in such awe!
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Broke the sound barrier, eh? Well there you go then. How could anyone possibly stand up to his expertise? No chance of him getting nailed at all, is there?
Must be nice to be omnipotent and know everything.
As I said - Who knows what would have happened? As it stands, their objective of keeping aircraft on the ground was achieved.
Must be nice to be omnipotent and know everything.
As I said - Who knows what would have happened? As it stands, their objective of keeping aircraft on the ground was achieved.
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"Rhodesian arrogance"? Maybe just in response to the terrorist arrogance of shooting down civilian airliners?
Maybe Kenneth Kaunda was so disgusted with the shooting down of those airliners that he actually sympathised with the raid and therefore directed the grounding of the MiGs?
"A Mig 21 in the hands of a competent and committed pilot is a potent force". I wonder how 'potent' it is during taxy out and take-off? (Got to get through that phase first!)
Maybe Kenneth Kaunda was so disgusted with the shooting down of those airliners that he actually sympathised with the raid and therefore directed the grounding of the MiGs?
"A Mig 21 in the hands of a competent and committed pilot is a potent force". I wonder how 'potent' it is during taxy out and take-off? (Got to get through that phase first!)
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Trossie, I suspect you are quite right.
Solid Rust Twot, yes, who knows. The fact that he was the first to break the sound barrier was simply an aside, not any reference to his ability or otherwise. As for arrogance, it seems you are not short in that department at all! A Wenwe yourself, perhaps?!! And where did I ever infer that I was omnipotent and knew everything? I think you should put some salve on those raw nerves of yours!!
Solid Rust Twot, yes, who knows. The fact that he was the first to break the sound barrier was simply an aside, not any reference to his ability or otherwise. As for arrogance, it seems you are not short in that department at all! A Wenwe yourself, perhaps?!! And where did I ever infer that I was omnipotent and knew everything? I think you should put some salve on those raw nerves of yours!!
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No raw nerves here. I'd say any raw nerves and wounded pride are yours with your accusations of arrogance and assumptions as to my provenance. My riposte was merely to state the fact that the outcome of the operation to deny the airspace to aircraft other than those involved in the attack, was successful. Any suppositions as to other scenarios were yours.
My apologies for misinterpreting your opening sentence starting with "I knew..." I took that to mean you had knowledge of the hypothetical eventual outcome, even though no aircraft was launched.
As for Zambian air force crews, it's possible your friend was the exception. Having worked there many years ago, I'm afraid I was not that impressed. Don't even get me started on govt bureaucracy.
May one suggest speaking to the chaps on the military aircrew forum for a more educated take on any hypothetical encounter?
My apologies for misinterpreting your opening sentence starting with "I knew..." I took that to mean you had knowledge of the hypothetical eventual outcome, even though no aircraft was launched.
As for Zambian air force crews, it's possible your friend was the exception. Having worked there many years ago, I'm afraid I was not that impressed. Don't even get me started on govt bureaucracy.
May one suggest speaking to the chaps on the military aircrew forum for a more educated take on any hypothetical encounter?
Está servira para distraerle.
Had the intrepid Zambian aces got airborne in their Mig 21s, they would have slaughtered the interlopers, a fact no doubt equally obvious to both side's pilots. The raid was predicated on a bluff and the bluff wasn't called. That's pretty daring ain't it? Such ventursome bravery in the past has won gongs no matter how you whistle the name of the dog in the manger.
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This thread was started to simply honour and mark someones passing. A man who obviously touched a great many peoples lives.
How on earth does no matter what anyone puts on this forum, that it ends up in a BITCHING session.
Its quite unbelievable.
How on earth does no matter what anyone puts on this forum, that it ends up in a BITCHING session.
Its quite unbelievable.
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The raid itself was impressive....and most certainly justified. And, of course, it was successful.
My only point was that it was conducted across the borders of another sovereign state without their knowledge or permission. For instance, had the terrorist base been in South Africa, do you think they would have dared such a mission then, and do you expect it would have been as successful?
Zambian jets were instructed to remain on the ground by KK. Zambia had Migs based at several locations throughout the country, and I doubt the Rhodesians could have shot ALL of them down. And whilst I have no doubt the Rhodesian pilots were of a higher calibre, nevertheless, a Russian trained pilot in a MIG 21 would have still been more than a passing inconvenience to a Rhodesian Hunter, and certainly a Canberra.
The fact remains that the mission, impressive though it was, took place completely unopposed....
Just my opinion.
My only point was that it was conducted across the borders of another sovereign state without their knowledge or permission. For instance, had the terrorist base been in South Africa, do you think they would have dared such a mission then, and do you expect it would have been as successful?
Zambian jets were instructed to remain on the ground by KK. Zambia had Migs based at several locations throughout the country, and I doubt the Rhodesians could have shot ALL of them down. And whilst I have no doubt the Rhodesian pilots were of a higher calibre, nevertheless, a Russian trained pilot in a MIG 21 would have still been more than a passing inconvenience to a Rhodesian Hunter, and certainly a Canberra.
The fact remains that the mission, impressive though it was, took place completely unopposed....
Just my opinion.
Last edited by The Wraith; 1st Nov 2011 at 15:57.
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I didn't want to see this turned into a bitching session but as someone who lived through some of the terrorist war in Rhodesia, knew people on the Viscounts who were shot down by ZIPRA terrorists, remembers the reports of how survivors from one were butchered and raped by savages, heard Joshuah Nkomo chuckle when talking about this atrocity (read the sermon below).... etc ... I take offence at this :
The terrorists were killing innocent civilians in Rhodesia, going for soft targets. The raid into Zambia was aimed at Westlands Farm, a known terrorist base. Anyone there was either a terrorist, or was supporting terrorism in some way.
The raid may not have been an act of great heroism, I don't think anyone has claimed it was, but it was a decisive blow against terrorism and Chris Dixon deserves to be remembered for his part in that.
besides being indescriminate in who it killed (thus making the Rhodesians no better morally than the terrorists they aimed to kill)
The raid may not have been an act of great heroism, I don't think anyone has claimed it was, but it was a decisive blow against terrorism and Chris Dixon deserves to be remembered for his part in that.
The Silence is Deafening
Sermon by Very Rev. John da Costa, Anglican Dean of Salisbury
Clergymen, I am frequently told, should keep out of politics. I thoroughly agree. For this reason, I will not allow politics to be preached in this cathedral. Clergy have to be reconcilers. That is no easy job. A minister of religion who has well-known political views, and allows them to come to the fore, cannot reconcile, but will alienate others, and fail in the chief part of his ministry.
For this reason, I personally am surprised at there being two clergymen in the Executive Council. It is my sincere prayer that they can act as Christ’s ambassadors of reconciliation.
My own ministry began in Ghana, where Kwame Nkrumah preached: "Seek ye first the political kingdom and all these things will be added to you." We know what became of Kwame Nkrumah. We are not to preach a political kingdom, but the kingdom of God.
Clergy are usually in the middle, shot at from both sides. It is not an enviable role. Yet times come when it is necessary to speak out, and in direct and forthright terms, like trumpets with unmistakable notes. I believe that this is one such time.
Nobody who holds sacred the dignity of human life can be anything but sickened at the events attending the crash of the Viscount Hunyani. Survivors have the greatest call on the sympathy and assistance of every other human being. The horror of the crash was bad enough, but that this should have been compounded by murder of the most savage and treacherous sort leaves us stunned with disbelief and brings revulsion in the minds of anyone deserving the name "human."
This bestiality, worse than anything in recent history, stinks in the nostrils of Heaven. But are we deafened with the voice of protest from nations which call themselves "civilised"? We are not. Like men in the story of the Good Samaritan, they "pass by, on the other side."
One listens for loud condemnation by Dr. David Owen, himself a medical doctor, trained to extend mercy and help to all in need.
One listens and the silence is deafening.
One listens for loud condemnation by the President of the United States, himself a man from the Bible-Baptist belt, and again the silence is deafening.
One listens for loud condemnation by the Pope, by the Chief Rabbi, by the Archbishop of Canterbury, by all who love the name of God.
Again the silence is deafening.
I do not believe in white supremacy. I do not believe in black supremacy either. I do not believe that anyone is better than another, until he has proved himself to be so. I believe that those who govern or who seek to govern must prove themselves worthy of the trust that will be placed in them.
One looks for real leadership One finds little in the Western world: how much less in Africa?
Who is to be blamed for this ghastly episode?
Like Pontius Pilate, the world may ask "What is truth?" What is to be believed? That depends on what your prejudices will allow you to believe, for then no evidence will convince you otherwise.
So who is to be blamed?
First, those who fired the guns. Who were they? Youths and men who, as likely as not, were until recently in church schools. This is the first terrible fact. Men who went over to the other side in a few months were so indoctrinated that all they had previously learned was obliterated. How could this happen if they had been given a truly Christian education?
Second, it is common knowledge that in large parts of the world violence is paraded on TV and cinema screens as entertainment. Films about war, murder, violence, rape devil-possession and the like are "good box-office". Peak viewing time is set aside for murderers from Belfast,, Palestine, Europe, Africa and the rest, to speak before an audience of tens of millions. Thugs are given full treatment, as if deserving of respect.
Not so the victims' relations.
Who else is to be blamed?
The United Nations and their church equivalent, the WCC. I am sure they both bear blame in this. Each parade a pseudo-morality which, like all half-truths, is more dangerous than the lie direct. From the safety and comfort of New York and Geneva, high moral attitudes can safely be struck. For us in the sweat, the blood, the suffering, it is somewhat different.
Who else? The churches? Oh yes, I fear so.
For too long, too many people have been allowed to call themselves "believers" when they have been nothing of the kind. Those who believe must act. If you believe the car is going to crash, you attempt to get out. If you believe the house is on fire, you try to get help and move things quickly. If you believe a child has drunk poison, you rush him to the doctor. Belief must bring about action.
Yet churches, even in our own dangerous times, are more than half-empty all the time. We are surrounded by heathens who equate belief in God with the Western way of life. In many war areas, Africans are told to "burn their Bibles". If this call was made to us, what sort of Bibles would be handed in? Would they be dog-eared from constant use; well-thumbed and marked? Would they be pristine in their virgin loveliness, in the same box in which they were first received?
There are tens of millions of all races who call themselves believers, who never enter any house of prayer and praise. Many are folk who scream loudest against communism, yet do not themselves help to defeat these Satanic forces by means of prayer, and praise and religious witness.
For, make no mistake, if our witness were as it ought to be, men would flock to join our ranks. As it is, we are by-passed by the world, as if irrelevant.
Is anyone else to be blamed for this ghastly episode near Kariba? I think so.
Politicians throughout the world have made opportunist speeches from time to time. These add to the heap of blameworthiness, for a speech can cause wounds which may take years to heal.
The ghastliness of this ill-fated flight from Kariba will be burned upon our memories for years to come. For others, far from our borders, it is an intellectual matter, not one which affects them deeply. Here is the tragedy!
The especial danger of Marxism is its teaching that human life is cheap, expendable, of less importance than the well-being of the State. But there are men who call themselves Christians who have the same contempt for other human beings, and who treat them as being expendable.
Had we, who claim to love God, shown more real love and understanding, more patience, more trust of others, the churches would not be vilified as they are today. I have nothing but sympathy with those who are here today and whose grief we share. I have nothing but revulsion for the less-than-human act of murder which has so horrified us all.
I have nothing but amazement at the silence of so many of the political leaders of the world. I have nothing but sadness that our churches have failed so badly to practise what we preach. May God forgive us all, and may he bring all those who died so suddenly and unprepared into the light of His glorious presence.
Amen
Sermon by Very Rev. John da Costa, Anglican Dean of Salisbury
Clergymen, I am frequently told, should keep out of politics. I thoroughly agree. For this reason, I will not allow politics to be preached in this cathedral. Clergy have to be reconcilers. That is no easy job. A minister of religion who has well-known political views, and allows them to come to the fore, cannot reconcile, but will alienate others, and fail in the chief part of his ministry.
For this reason, I personally am surprised at there being two clergymen in the Executive Council. It is my sincere prayer that they can act as Christ’s ambassadors of reconciliation.
My own ministry began in Ghana, where Kwame Nkrumah preached: "Seek ye first the political kingdom and all these things will be added to you." We know what became of Kwame Nkrumah. We are not to preach a political kingdom, but the kingdom of God.
Clergy are usually in the middle, shot at from both sides. It is not an enviable role. Yet times come when it is necessary to speak out, and in direct and forthright terms, like trumpets with unmistakable notes. I believe that this is one such time.
Nobody who holds sacred the dignity of human life can be anything but sickened at the events attending the crash of the Viscount Hunyani. Survivors have the greatest call on the sympathy and assistance of every other human being. The horror of the crash was bad enough, but that this should have been compounded by murder of the most savage and treacherous sort leaves us stunned with disbelief and brings revulsion in the minds of anyone deserving the name "human."
This bestiality, worse than anything in recent history, stinks in the nostrils of Heaven. But are we deafened with the voice of protest from nations which call themselves "civilised"? We are not. Like men in the story of the Good Samaritan, they "pass by, on the other side."
One listens for loud condemnation by Dr. David Owen, himself a medical doctor, trained to extend mercy and help to all in need.
One listens and the silence is deafening.
One listens for loud condemnation by the President of the United States, himself a man from the Bible-Baptist belt, and again the silence is deafening.
One listens for loud condemnation by the Pope, by the Chief Rabbi, by the Archbishop of Canterbury, by all who love the name of God.
Again the silence is deafening.
I do not believe in white supremacy. I do not believe in black supremacy either. I do not believe that anyone is better than another, until he has proved himself to be so. I believe that those who govern or who seek to govern must prove themselves worthy of the trust that will be placed in them.
One looks for real leadership One finds little in the Western world: how much less in Africa?
Who is to be blamed for this ghastly episode?
Like Pontius Pilate, the world may ask "What is truth?" What is to be believed? That depends on what your prejudices will allow you to believe, for then no evidence will convince you otherwise.
So who is to be blamed?
First, those who fired the guns. Who were they? Youths and men who, as likely as not, were until recently in church schools. This is the first terrible fact. Men who went over to the other side in a few months were so indoctrinated that all they had previously learned was obliterated. How could this happen if they had been given a truly Christian education?
Second, it is common knowledge that in large parts of the world violence is paraded on TV and cinema screens as entertainment. Films about war, murder, violence, rape devil-possession and the like are "good box-office". Peak viewing time is set aside for murderers from Belfast,, Palestine, Europe, Africa and the rest, to speak before an audience of tens of millions. Thugs are given full treatment, as if deserving of respect.
Not so the victims' relations.
Who else is to be blamed?
The United Nations and their church equivalent, the WCC. I am sure they both bear blame in this. Each parade a pseudo-morality which, like all half-truths, is more dangerous than the lie direct. From the safety and comfort of New York and Geneva, high moral attitudes can safely be struck. For us in the sweat, the blood, the suffering, it is somewhat different.
Who else? The churches? Oh yes, I fear so.
For too long, too many people have been allowed to call themselves "believers" when they have been nothing of the kind. Those who believe must act. If you believe the car is going to crash, you attempt to get out. If you believe the house is on fire, you try to get help and move things quickly. If you believe a child has drunk poison, you rush him to the doctor. Belief must bring about action.
Yet churches, even in our own dangerous times, are more than half-empty all the time. We are surrounded by heathens who equate belief in God with the Western way of life. In many war areas, Africans are told to "burn their Bibles". If this call was made to us, what sort of Bibles would be handed in? Would they be dog-eared from constant use; well-thumbed and marked? Would they be pristine in their virgin loveliness, in the same box in which they were first received?
There are tens of millions of all races who call themselves believers, who never enter any house of prayer and praise. Many are folk who scream loudest against communism, yet do not themselves help to defeat these Satanic forces by means of prayer, and praise and religious witness.
For, make no mistake, if our witness were as it ought to be, men would flock to join our ranks. As it is, we are by-passed by the world, as if irrelevant.
Is anyone else to be blamed for this ghastly episode near Kariba? I think so.
Politicians throughout the world have made opportunist speeches from time to time. These add to the heap of blameworthiness, for a speech can cause wounds which may take years to heal.
The ghastliness of this ill-fated flight from Kariba will be burned upon our memories for years to come. For others, far from our borders, it is an intellectual matter, not one which affects them deeply. Here is the tragedy!
The especial danger of Marxism is its teaching that human life is cheap, expendable, of less importance than the well-being of the State. But there are men who call themselves Christians who have the same contempt for other human beings, and who treat them as being expendable.
Had we, who claim to love God, shown more real love and understanding, more patience, more trust of others, the churches would not be vilified as they are today. I have nothing but sympathy with those who are here today and whose grief we share. I have nothing but revulsion for the less-than-human act of murder which has so horrified us all.
I have nothing but amazement at the silence of so many of the political leaders of the world. I have nothing but sadness that our churches have failed so badly to practise what we preach. May God forgive us all, and may he bring all those who died so suddenly and unprepared into the light of His glorious presence.
Amen
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Thank you for that, Capetonian.
That "Green Leader" raid was all about civil aviation. It was a response to barbarism against civil aviation. And even during its execution it was ensuring the safety of local civil aviation (note the question at one stage from Lusaka ATC: "I hope you are ensuring the safety of my civilian air traffic", and they were with their advice...). I don't care if it was 'unopposed', it was effective... and that's that!
Likewise the raid to nail Bin Laden was also a response to barbarism against civil aviation and has to go alongside the "Green Leader" raid in that respect.
I also had a cheer at Gaddaffi's demise, again due to his involvement in barbarism against civil aviation.
(Now I won't be listening to any arguments about civil airliners that have been shot down through 'mistaken identities' being brought in here: the three incidents that I have mentioned above were all the deliberate targetting of civil airliners, because they were civil airliners. And that is barbaric.)
The manner in which "Green Leader" read out his initial communication to Lusaka tower, and his (and his colleagues') subsequent communications, showed some decency towards civilians that none of those barbarians ever did... There are a lot of us who have never met him who will remember him for it.
That "Green Leader" raid was all about civil aviation. It was a response to barbarism against civil aviation. And even during its execution it was ensuring the safety of local civil aviation (note the question at one stage from Lusaka ATC: "I hope you are ensuring the safety of my civilian air traffic", and they were with their advice...). I don't care if it was 'unopposed', it was effective... and that's that!
Likewise the raid to nail Bin Laden was also a response to barbarism against civil aviation and has to go alongside the "Green Leader" raid in that respect.
I also had a cheer at Gaddaffi's demise, again due to his involvement in barbarism against civil aviation.
(Now I won't be listening to any arguments about civil airliners that have been shot down through 'mistaken identities' being brought in here: the three incidents that I have mentioned above were all the deliberate targetting of civil airliners, because they were civil airliners. And that is barbaric.)
The manner in which "Green Leader" read out his initial communication to Lusaka tower, and his (and his colleagues') subsequent communications, showed some decency towards civilians that none of those barbarians ever did... There are a lot of us who have never met him who will remember him for it.