A Zimex Pilot
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: France
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A Zimex Pilot
a Zimex pilot in Africa flying a Twin Otter had the O.A.T gauge come off while in the field with Pax.
said pilot left the Pax in the field and flew the machine back to main base and is raising bloody hell about shoddy maintenance, entering this in the company SMS and in general being an ass.
what are your thought on this you African flyers
said pilot left the Pax in the field and flew the machine back to main base and is raising bloody hell about shoddy maintenance, entering this in the company SMS and in general being an ass.
what are your thought on this you African flyers
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Technical aspect: If this story is true and the flight could have been conducted in VMC, I think his actions were a bit stupid in that case. No reason to conduct such a fuss or overreact about it (unless it is an ongoing experience with maintenance in general and he did it to prove a point), just make sure it has been properly fixed for the next flight from home base. Conclusion: inappropriate.
Customer aspect: Just leaving the customers standing like that without an alternative plan for them getting to their destination at hand however is highly unprofessional. Conclusion: very inappropriate.
Customer aspect: Just leaving the customers standing like that without an alternative plan for them getting to their destination at hand however is highly unprofessional. Conclusion: very inappropriate.
Drain Bamaged
I agree with all above and I would had that there is probably more to this story.
Something about this pilot being feed up with Zimex and trying to prove a point maybe !?
Something about this pilot being feed up with Zimex and trying to prove a point maybe !?
Having been a Zimex pilot out of Hassi, I can understand the school of thought.
ZIM has all the best intentions of holding the highest safety standards, it is one reason why they continually renew contracts even though they are not the cheapest.
Is the OAT part of the MEL?
Knowing that the WX has been XX****Y in Hassi in the past few weeks I could probably argue that a VFR flight was not possible.
Some clients however have unrealistic ideas, they preach that its all Safety first and blah blah blah, however having lived in a shipping container for 4 weeks the rig pigs will do anything to get out of sandland. So I can understand they would be upset.
Reality, storm in a tea-cup, some of my mates have been grumbling about standards slipping. Was this pilot sending a message, if so good on them. If he operated within the FOM then he is doing nothing but follow the letter of the law.
Crew flexibility ebbs and flows in every company and ZIM is no different. Could he have gone.... maybe? Did he have a copilot that was likely to run off to the office telling porkies..... maybe??
Rig Pigs will always get their nose out of joint if they dont get their way, but if it was blowing a sandstorm with zero vis and 50ft x-wind, I bet your ass they would not want to get in the otter if it had an OAT gauge or not.
ZIM has all the best intentions of holding the highest safety standards, it is one reason why they continually renew contracts even though they are not the cheapest.
Is the OAT part of the MEL?
Knowing that the WX has been XX****Y in Hassi in the past few weeks I could probably argue that a VFR flight was not possible.
Some clients however have unrealistic ideas, they preach that its all Safety first and blah blah blah, however having lived in a shipping container for 4 weeks the rig pigs will do anything to get out of sandland. So I can understand they would be upset.
Reality, storm in a tea-cup, some of my mates have been grumbling about standards slipping. Was this pilot sending a message, if so good on them. If he operated within the FOM then he is doing nothing but follow the letter of the law.
Crew flexibility ebbs and flows in every company and ZIM is no different. Could he have gone.... maybe? Did he have a copilot that was likely to run off to the office telling porkies..... maybe??
Rig Pigs will always get their nose out of joint if they dont get their way, but if it was blowing a sandstorm with zero vis and 50ft x-wind, I bet your ass they would not want to get in the otter if it had an OAT gauge or not.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The wrong side of town.
Posts: 193
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tit for Tat....
Given that an oil company will have a pilot chucked off contract for something as trivial a paperwork non compliance, or not signing the DFR correctly, one can hardly bitch about this pilot when he applies the same "high" standards of safety back to the oil company.
Having flown for most of the oil company's at some stage, I was always astounded by their hipocracy regarding safety.
They constantly hammer their aero contractors on the most rediculous issues, in the name of safety, until those same high standards are directed back at them then suddenly there are cries of indignation and claims that the pilots are being difficult.
I was often expected to bend rules when it suited the oil company only to get cited by the company H & S nazi's for stupid things like, wearing flip flops in the camp, because apparently scorpions might sting me.....
Having flown for most of the oil company's at some stage, I was always astounded by their hipocracy regarding safety.
They constantly hammer their aero contractors on the most rediculous issues, in the name of safety, until those same high standards are directed back at them then suddenly there are cries of indignation and claims that the pilots are being difficult.
I was often expected to bend rules when it suited the oil company only to get cited by the company H & S nazi's for stupid things like, wearing flip flops in the camp, because apparently scorpions might sting me.....
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Africa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Far to often companies preach that they have high safety standards by making pilots do heaps of paper work, heaven help him if it isn’t done. Then when a pilot makes a safety call, as captain and therefore responsible person for the lives onboard, which now inconveniences the client, then suddenly he is a bad pilot and should go home. If it were an IFR flight, regardless of the MEL, if it were me – same decision. I can promise you all the hot shots above are the same ones commenting after accidents on how they wouldn’t do this and that and how they have the balls to tell the client where to get off wada wada wada. Now they willing to fly aircraft with parts falling off. Shameful. I would have expected support from other pilots
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Your nearest Marriott
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Twot is unpressurised, or was when I last checked. So just how much can the OAT change between gnd and cruising level?
Was the weather solid IMC? To the deck? Could he not have completed the flight VFR at low level?
Sounds like he was looking for an excuse to be difficult. I know that happens sometimes, because we have all been there...but for an OAT gauge on a Twotter - really
If it was safe enough to fly home, without pax, then he might as well have completed the flight with pax. Or how did he get the aircraft home then? By road? Seems the u/s OAT gauge wasnt the real issue. If he refused to fly the aircraft, I would say, ok, pedantic, but hey, his choice. But he chose to fly the aircraft home - different story.
Or should he now be a hero for not exposing his pax to the risk of flying with no OAT gauge??
Was the weather solid IMC? To the deck? Could he not have completed the flight VFR at low level?
Sounds like he was looking for an excuse to be difficult. I know that happens sometimes, because we have all been there...but for an OAT gauge on a Twotter - really
If it was safe enough to fly home, without pax, then he might as well have completed the flight with pax. Or how did he get the aircraft home then? By road? Seems the u/s OAT gauge wasnt the real issue. If he refused to fly the aircraft, I would say, ok, pedantic, but hey, his choice. But he chose to fly the aircraft home - different story.
Or should he now be a hero for not exposing his pax to the risk of flying with no OAT gauge??
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Jungle or Sand!!!!!!
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember in Angola when the WFP contract was up for grabs, a Dutch company flew in with 200's. Two days later they left. This was due to, not being able to comply to the route loading the WFP stipulated as minimums.
That was to say the crew wanted more fuel and the WFP was contracted more Pax. In such enviroments, guys coming from countries full of VOR's, ILS's and airports don't understand the complications of flying in Deep dark Africa.
I remember having a fat argument with the head of airops Kinshasa (Short ex-airline dude) about flying that day into weather and shoving some pax off to make it work. The next day getting a ticking off from the auditor for not planning a enough fuel reserves.
You will never win, and if you complain the company finds people to fill your seat. I found making as few waves as possible and keeping it as safe as possible (T.I.A) is best for reputation and sanity.
Try night Medivacs with the closest alternate 400nm away and nothing below you but jungle. You might as well be a single over the atlantic.....
That was to say the crew wanted more fuel and the WFP was contracted more Pax. In such enviroments, guys coming from countries full of VOR's, ILS's and airports don't understand the complications of flying in Deep dark Africa.
I remember having a fat argument with the head of airops Kinshasa (Short ex-airline dude) about flying that day into weather and shoving some pax off to make it work. The next day getting a ticking off from the auditor for not planning a enough fuel reserves.
You will never win, and if you complain the company finds people to fill your seat. I found making as few waves as possible and keeping it as safe as possible (T.I.A) is best for reputation and sanity.
Try night Medivacs with the closest alternate 400nm away and nothing below you but jungle. You might as well be a single over the atlantic.....
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The wrong side of town.
Posts: 193
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's winter in the Sahara at the moment, I recall there being some very wet days with Low icing levels at some times of the winter there, could low icing levels possibly have influenced the pilots decision?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Laos,Kenya,Czech republic,IOM , Eire , France,CAR,Libya...etc..
Age: 50
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....winter in the sahara in June ???
Hassi Messaoud currently :METAR: DAUH 180830Z 12010KT CAVOK 33/13 Q1017
short-TAF: périmé (20136 heures)
long-TAF: DAUH 180500Z 1806/1906 VRB02KT CAVOK BECMG 1810/1814 20010KT TEMPO 1818/1902 VRB02KT
Summer actually begins on the 20/21st of June (Summer solstice) in the Northern Hemisphere .
The OAT gauge problem might have more to do with max.operating temp than icing at the moment
From what my colleagues tell me : Conditions are very comfortable in the camps in terms of food / internet / comms /A/C ... It just gets a bit boring after a while so take plenty to read/do/watch I guess .
There's a couple of flights from London directly to DAUH (dedicated to oil companies)or you have to connect via Algiers for more choice (regular multiple flights daily from Hassi to Algiers).
A few of those mates are smokers but I believe you have to smoke outside the rooms because of the A/C.
Hassi Messaoud currently :METAR: DAUH 180830Z 12010KT CAVOK 33/13 Q1017
short-TAF: périmé (20136 heures)
long-TAF: DAUH 180500Z 1806/1906 VRB02KT CAVOK BECMG 1810/1814 20010KT TEMPO 1818/1902 VRB02KT
Summer actually begins on the 20/21st of June (Summer solstice) in the Northern Hemisphere .
The OAT gauge problem might have more to do with max.operating temp than icing at the moment
From what my colleagues tell me : Conditions are very comfortable in the camps in terms of food / internet / comms /A/C ... It just gets a bit boring after a while so take plenty to read/do/watch I guess .
There's a couple of flights from London directly to DAUH (dedicated to oil companies)or you have to connect via Algiers for more choice (regular multiple flights daily from Hassi to Algiers).
A few of those mates are smokers but I believe you have to smoke outside the rooms because of the A/C.
Last edited by perceval; 18th Jun 2011 at 09:01. Reason: addendum
It's not listed in the Series 300 or Series 400 MEL at present, but the next time I revise these two MMELs, I will try to include it. It makes sense to provide relief if the OAT measurement system is inoperative for a flight (or series of flights) to return to a maintenance base to have a repair carried out.
I'll need to talk to the regulatory authority of the State of Design (Transport Canada, in this case) and see if there is any precedent for putting the OAT indication on the MMEL. TC is generally pretty good about granting relief to let an aircraft get back to a maintenance base as long as safety of flight is not compromised.
My first thoughts are that provided that the temperature is well above freezing, the pilot can obtain a reliable OAT from another source prior to flight to enable performance calculations to be made, and the flight is conducted in VMC (clear of cloud), it would be reasonable to allow a flight to depart without a functional OAT indication... the pilot could assume a standard lapse rate for the purposes of determining temperature (for power setting calculations) during flight.
Michael
I'll need to talk to the regulatory authority of the State of Design (Transport Canada, in this case) and see if there is any precedent for putting the OAT indication on the MMEL. TC is generally pretty good about granting relief to let an aircraft get back to a maintenance base as long as safety of flight is not compromised.
My first thoughts are that provided that the temperature is well above freezing, the pilot can obtain a reliable OAT from another source prior to flight to enable performance calculations to be made, and the flight is conducted in VMC (clear of cloud), it would be reasonable to allow a flight to depart without a functional OAT indication... the pilot could assume a standard lapse rate for the purposes of determining temperature (for power setting calculations) during flight.
Michael
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Enzed
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a troop of baboons tear off my OAT probe and run off into the african wilderness with it once, not much maintenance could have done about that!
They also shat on the window
Was more concerned about the poor vis due to the baboon sh%t to be honest!
I was vfr tho.
They also shat on the window
Was more concerned about the poor vis due to the baboon sh%t to be honest!
I was vfr tho.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: on earth
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"wearing flip flops in the camp, because apparently scorpions might sting me....."
One of the oil companies told me I couldn't wear flip flops in the canteen should I drop a knife or fork on my pinky toe. This coming from a company employing people lifting tons of steel/metal equipment every day which could and did easily kill.
They obviously would not listen to my remark regarding the locals wearing their "jesus" sandals in the very same canteen.
They sure were good at double standards regarding safety. A certain Dutch company were the worst.
Glad I left this part of aviation behind me for better things.
One of the oil companies told me I couldn't wear flip flops in the canteen should I drop a knife or fork on my pinky toe. This coming from a company employing people lifting tons of steel/metal equipment every day which could and did easily kill.
They obviously would not listen to my remark regarding the locals wearing their "jesus" sandals in the very same canteen.They sure were good at double standards regarding safety. A certain Dutch company were the worst.
Glad I left this part of aviation behind me for better things.
I had a troop of baboons tear off my OAT probe and run off into the african wilderness with it once, not much maintenance could have done about that!
They also shat on the window
Ah, maintenance or the baboons?
They also shat on the window
Ah, maintenance or the baboons?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 76
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a difference?
Just a little joke there; some of my best friends are engineers, even if that is just because most of the other pilots wouldn't speak to me after I made fun of their fancy hats with scrambled eggs on the brim. (What is the difference between a Dornier 328 Captain and a Twin Otter pilot? One has scrambled eggs on his hat and the other has scrambled eggs on his shirt. Bwahahaha....)
Oh, you are just going to love it there in the desert, especially if you go on a contract for Shell!
We had a guy get a teensy bit behind on his cross-wind steering, so that his Twotter went into bundu-seeking mode, as they sometimes do. He gathered it up and got it back on the island with no harm done, so that this was basically a non-event, just a typical day at a bush strip in a strong cross-wind with what can be a squirrelly airplane.
Then the camp's Shell HSE bod sprang into action to do the assessment, when he gave it 5 out of 5. (1 is a stubbed toe, 5 is being run over by a Caterpillar after having been set on fire.)
I was sent out there to help out a bit while our man got his confidence back, when I had speaks with Mr HSE, who seemed quite proud of the strict way he was ensuring safety for all the Shellies. (I had already worked for what seemed like forever in Nigeria on a Shell contract, so that I knew their system.) I looked at that scale from 1 to 5 and then asked him, 'So, what are you going to do if you have a real accident, now that you have given this non-event a 5?' Cue a stricken look, which seemed to say that he had only focused on dropping an airplane driver in the poo without giving the big picture much of a thought.
You may find a sort of Old Guard in place at Hassi Messaoud, not terribly responsive to Zimex HQ, with their own rather secretive way of doing things.
If your face fits then you will find yourself stationed at base, enjoying good food and the swimming pool and all that sort of stuff, and if it doesn't then you may find yourself out there in the middle of nowhere with one raggedy-ass Twotter, one FO, a handful of ex-pats and a gang of semi-feral locals for company, when 5 weeks can seem a very long time. 5 times a day the call to prayer will come blasting over the Tannoy, with the first one before sunrise; that can get old quickly, once you learn what 'Allahu akbar!' means.
If you have read Wind, Sand and Stars you can forget that; the camps are all lit up with those sodium lights so that you cannot see the night-time sky from within the camp, and you are not allowed off the camp at night in any case. During the day, if you are allowed to go walkabout then you have to stay within line-of-sight of a guard post.
You might want to read up on the history of the FLN war against the French, since the bad guys of today are using FLN tactics against the FLN, when you may well find yourself in the cross-hairs just because.
About those camp guards... They are armed with Russian 12-gauge shotguns, but the bad guys are armed with Kalashnikovs. If it comes to a gunfight, a shotgun against an AK-47 is about as much use as a chocolate teapot, plus the guards stay in these stupid little guard shacks, sort of like phone booths, that are all lit up at night so that it might be rather easy to sneak up and pot them.
If you go for it, do learn basic French and at least enough Arabic to say 'Hello, Thanks very much,' and that sort of thing, respect the local culture and be ready to make new friends, while casually watching your six for new enemies, fellow ex-pats.
Good luck!
Just a little joke there; some of my best friends are engineers, even if that is just because most of the other pilots wouldn't speak to me after I made fun of their fancy hats with scrambled eggs on the brim. (What is the difference between a Dornier 328 Captain and a Twin Otter pilot? One has scrambled eggs on his hat and the other has scrambled eggs on his shirt. Bwahahaha....)
Oh, you are just going to love it there in the desert, especially if you go on a contract for Shell!
We had a guy get a teensy bit behind on his cross-wind steering, so that his Twotter went into bundu-seeking mode, as they sometimes do. He gathered it up and got it back on the island with no harm done, so that this was basically a non-event, just a typical day at a bush strip in a strong cross-wind with what can be a squirrelly airplane.
Then the camp's Shell HSE bod sprang into action to do the assessment, when he gave it 5 out of 5. (1 is a stubbed toe, 5 is being run over by a Caterpillar after having been set on fire.)
I was sent out there to help out a bit while our man got his confidence back, when I had speaks with Mr HSE, who seemed quite proud of the strict way he was ensuring safety for all the Shellies. (I had already worked for what seemed like forever in Nigeria on a Shell contract, so that I knew their system.) I looked at that scale from 1 to 5 and then asked him, 'So, what are you going to do if you have a real accident, now that you have given this non-event a 5?' Cue a stricken look, which seemed to say that he had only focused on dropping an airplane driver in the poo without giving the big picture much of a thought.
You may find a sort of Old Guard in place at Hassi Messaoud, not terribly responsive to Zimex HQ, with their own rather secretive way of doing things.
If your face fits then you will find yourself stationed at base, enjoying good food and the swimming pool and all that sort of stuff, and if it doesn't then you may find yourself out there in the middle of nowhere with one raggedy-ass Twotter, one FO, a handful of ex-pats and a gang of semi-feral locals for company, when 5 weeks can seem a very long time. 5 times a day the call to prayer will come blasting over the Tannoy, with the first one before sunrise; that can get old quickly, once you learn what 'Allahu akbar!' means.
If you have read Wind, Sand and Stars you can forget that; the camps are all lit up with those sodium lights so that you cannot see the night-time sky from within the camp, and you are not allowed off the camp at night in any case. During the day, if you are allowed to go walkabout then you have to stay within line-of-sight of a guard post.
You might want to read up on the history of the FLN war against the French, since the bad guys of today are using FLN tactics against the FLN, when you may well find yourself in the cross-hairs just because.
About those camp guards... They are armed with Russian 12-gauge shotguns, but the bad guys are armed with Kalashnikovs. If it comes to a gunfight, a shotgun against an AK-47 is about as much use as a chocolate teapot, plus the guards stay in these stupid little guard shacks, sort of like phone booths, that are all lit up at night so that it might be rather easy to sneak up and pot them.
If you go for it, do learn basic French and at least enough Arabic to say 'Hello, Thanks very much,' and that sort of thing, respect the local culture and be ready to make new friends, while casually watching your six for new enemies, fellow ex-pats.
Good luck!
Last edited by chuks; 27th Jun 2011 at 07:38.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Joburg
Age: 44
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you guys might be missing the point. This is assuming the weather was IFR.. I am not too sure what the JAR law is regarding IFR flights, but in SA it is as follows (I am sure JAR cannot be too different) :
Flight, navigation and associated equipment for aircraft operated under IFR
91.04.5 (1) No owner or operator of an aircraft shall operate the aircraft in accordance with IFR, unless such aircraft is equipped with –
(j) a means of indication, in the cockpit or in the flight deck, the outside air temperature in degrees Celsius
Flight, navigation and associated equipment for aircraft operated under IFR
91.04.5 (1) No owner or operator of an aircraft shall operate the aircraft in accordance with IFR, unless such aircraft is equipped with –
(j) a means of indication, in the cockpit or in the flight deck, the outside air temperature in degrees Celsius
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 76
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having a bad day...
I assume you are familiar with the DHC-6 Twin Otter, or 'Twotter' as it is usually known.
If the thermometer fell out of its mounting hole then I think you could very easily just take it along to hold in your hand and stick out the slightly-opened pilot's sliding window if you really needed to know the OAT exactly. Okay, apply CRM and have the PNF do that!
Given that this was the Sahara Bloody Desert then it is pretty safe to assume that one could look at the OAT on the ground, apply the standard lapse rate of 2 degrees C. per thousand feet and know the freezing level if one was going to fly in IMC.
Or, if you were cheesed off about bits falling off your Twotter then you could look in the MEL, find that a missing thermometer was a no-go item and ferry it back to base just to prove a point, what seems to have happened in this case. So management took the point, in a market with plenty of other pilots on the market, and fired this guy!
Is there some part of this that is difficult to understand?
If the thermometer fell out of its mounting hole then I think you could very easily just take it along to hold in your hand and stick out the slightly-opened pilot's sliding window if you really needed to know the OAT exactly. Okay, apply CRM and have the PNF do that!
Given that this was the Sahara Bloody Desert then it is pretty safe to assume that one could look at the OAT on the ground, apply the standard lapse rate of 2 degrees C. per thousand feet and know the freezing level if one was going to fly in IMC.
Or, if you were cheesed off about bits falling off your Twotter then you could look in the MEL, find that a missing thermometer was a no-go item and ferry it back to base just to prove a point, what seems to have happened in this case. So management took the point, in a market with plenty of other pilots on the market, and fired this guy!
Is there some part of this that is difficult to understand?