Missing aircraft (with Aussies) Yaounde - Mbalam
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Black Box
I used to operate for the UN in DRC several years ago and am not aware of the requirement for the use of black boxes in smaller aircraft. The news reports in Australia are all claiming that the black box has now been recovered.
Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is a requirement for such an aircraft?
Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is a requirement for such an aircraft?
Originally Posted by lickmine
...Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is a requirement for such an aircraft?
So, in this particular case, the question is whether or not the state of registry (DRC?) requires that aircraft of this size operating in the particular service category (e.g. charter, scheduled public service, etc.) need to be fitted with recorders.
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Not related to this sad accident but a savvy SAR agency PR chap would surely find it easier to tell the press that the BLACK BOX has been found even if it hasn't or especially if there isn't one.
Much easier than to try to explain why it hasn't been found and far, far, easier than explaining that there is no requrement for a black box in certain classes of aircraft.
They will regurgitate the news that the black box has been found a few dozen times and then forget about it.
Same goes for Flight Plans. The meeja tends to seize upon the lack of a flight plan as the obvious cause of the prang. Better not to tell them.
Sorry to be so cynical.
Much easier than to try to explain why it hasn't been found and far, far, easier than explaining that there is no requrement for a black box in certain classes of aircraft.
They will regurgitate the news that the black box has been found a few dozen times and then forget about it.
Same goes for Flight Plans. The meeja tends to seize upon the lack of a flight plan as the obvious cause of the prang. Better not to tell them.
Sorry to be so cynical.
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As a bit of an aside, Seagull, I doubt very much whether the "meeja" or the public that absorbs their output has the least conception of what a flight plan actually is. It irritates the hell out of me when a puddlejumper goes down on a summer sundday afternoon and the meeja tell us "no flight plan was filed". The implication to the non-aviation public is that no form of planning or preparation was done and the aeroplane was simply swanning around on a whim, and probably unauthorised too. I think the public does understand that some sort of preparation and planning is required before anyone goes flying, and this statement carries an implication of negligence and recklessness to the uninformed ear. Regardless of the bald accuracy of the statement it conveys some very misleading connotations.
I also think that "black boxes" (what a daft meejaism that is!) are thought to be part of every aircraft's equipment too as far as the general public are concerned.
I also think that "black boxes" (what a daft meejaism that is!) are thought to be part of every aircraft's equipment too as far as the general public are concerned.
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The news reports in Australia are all claiming that the black box has now been recovered.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Folks,
thanks Pom Pax, I was then in the business of purveying fine Cessna aerial carriages to business gentlefolk, God how time flies, and this incident was not unexpected given the shenanigans, as I remember them, surrounding the flight operations of yes North BH. North BH at that time with Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation owned Rex Aviation the Australian Distributor for Cessna.
Bottom line as I uderstand it, was the BHP North folk (flight ex Melbourne) had a really really urgent need to be at a meeting in Kalgoorlie and I understand there was a bit of pressure applied to the pilot to get there in time. Protestations that he really really needed some fuel somewhere between Ceduna and Forrest were discussed and I guess he made the decision to "have a go". If I recall it correctly my calculations showed that he was into his fixed reserves overhead Forrest. It all went quiet about 30nm (about when it should have according to Mr Cessna's flight planning figures) short of Kalgoorlie and they realighted
on spaceship Earth with the pax relatively unscathed, beyond their bent pride and soiled underdungers, at the aforementioned firebreak. It was, as were all their flights, operated in Private.
I think, Dave Ford? was brought over from Sinneytahn, the aircraft was jacked up, the gear extended and it was trucked to Kal airport. An inspection and some remedial work (the pressure vessel was ruptured) and a DCA/DOT/or whatever they were called then ferry permit raised and off it flew to Bankstown for repair.
Lessons then as now.
Your absolute responsibility to your passengers sometimes means you have to have the guts to back your judgement and tell the boss to go plait it if he insists. I dont recall the pilot getting a bonus or promotion for "having a go" for the company. I dont recall any pilot ever getting a medal or his pension plan NOT getting cancelled from his company for services "beyond and above".
Like the recent accident, why have a policy or protocol if you dont follow it, to the letter.
I understand from the press that they had actually booked another operator who for whatever reason was unable to deliver. My overseas collegues from that part of the world are all scratching their heads, there was supplemental lift available, but it might have taken a couple or more hours to get there, so why the hurry?
We will never now know what local political/business pressures were extant.
Where was Mr Talbots Global Capt, the only onsite "expert", did he have the confidence, knowledge, experience or ability to say to his boss, flat out NO.
It is reported that a local Sundance company employee removed himself from the flight.
There are system and process failures from end to end in this tragedy.
And so it goes.
Oh and BTW Pom Pax, it is quite dangerous to get me started on MU2
, if that was the accident to which you reffered. i knew a number of the pax and the pilot. It took me a while (not soon enough in that case) but the type was eventually relegated to freight and unsuspecting boy wonder pilot fodder, never to be used for passengers again.
thanks Pom Pax, I was then in the business of purveying fine Cessna aerial carriages to business gentlefolk, God how time flies, and this incident was not unexpected given the shenanigans, as I remember them, surrounding the flight operations of yes North BH. North BH at that time with Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation owned Rex Aviation the Australian Distributor for Cessna.
Bottom line as I uderstand it, was the BHP North folk (flight ex Melbourne) had a really really urgent need to be at a meeting in Kalgoorlie and I understand there was a bit of pressure applied to the pilot to get there in time. Protestations that he really really needed some fuel somewhere between Ceduna and Forrest were discussed and I guess he made the decision to "have a go". If I recall it correctly my calculations showed that he was into his fixed reserves overhead Forrest. It all went quiet about 30nm (about when it should have according to Mr Cessna's flight planning figures) short of Kalgoorlie and they realighted
on spaceship Earth with the pax relatively unscathed, beyond their bent pride and soiled underdungers, at the aforementioned firebreak. It was, as were all their flights, operated in Private.I think, Dave Ford? was brought over from Sinneytahn, the aircraft was jacked up, the gear extended and it was trucked to Kal airport. An inspection and some remedial work (the pressure vessel was ruptured) and a DCA/DOT/or whatever they were called then ferry permit raised and off it flew to Bankstown for repair.
Lessons then as now.
Your absolute responsibility to your passengers sometimes means you have to have the guts to back your judgement and tell the boss to go plait it if he insists. I dont recall the pilot getting a bonus or promotion for "having a go" for the company. I dont recall any pilot ever getting a medal or his pension plan NOT getting cancelled from his company for services "beyond and above".
Like the recent accident, why have a policy or protocol if you dont follow it, to the letter.
I understand from the press that they had actually booked another operator who for whatever reason was unable to deliver. My overseas collegues from that part of the world are all scratching their heads, there was supplemental lift available, but it might have taken a couple or more hours to get there, so why the hurry?
We will never now know what local political/business pressures were extant.
Where was Mr Talbots Global Capt, the only onsite "expert", did he have the confidence, knowledge, experience or ability to say to his boss, flat out NO.
It is reported that a local Sundance company employee removed himself from the flight.
There are system and process failures from end to end in this tragedy.
And so it goes.
Oh and BTW Pom Pax, it is quite dangerous to get me started on MU2
, if that was the accident to which you reffered. i knew a number of the pax and the pilot. It took me a while (not soon enough in that case) but the type was eventually relegated to freight and unsuspecting boy wonder pilot fodder, never to be used for passengers again.
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All the victims have been identified, and families notified.
Pilots -
Frederic Canal - French
Steve Hollingworth - English
Pax -
Geoff Wedlock - Australian.
Don Lewis - Australian.
Don Talbot - Australian.
Craig Oliver - Australian.
John Jones - Australian.
John Carr-Gregg - Australian (Pakistan-born and lived in South Africa).
Natasha Flason Brian - French National, living in Australia for 6 yrs.
James Cassley - Irish born, but held a British passport.
Jeff Duff - American.
Pilots -
Frederic Canal - French
Steve Hollingworth - English
Pax -
Geoff Wedlock - Australian.
Don Lewis - Australian.
Don Talbot - Australian.
Craig Oliver - Australian.
John Jones - Australian.
John Carr-Gregg - Australian (Pakistan-born and lived in South Africa).
Natasha Flason Brian - French National, living in Australia for 6 yrs.
James Cassley - Irish born, but held a British passport.
Jeff Duff - American.
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Actually, Agaricus, I think the media reporting in Australia of this accident has been better than usual. We pilots would like to see a little local knowledge of the conditions in that area so we can form our own conclusions of the accident cause, however. Plenty of others jump on our thread if there is an accident in the east, (ie Remoak), perhaps we can get some feedback about this one by locals operating in this area.
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My heartfelt condolences to all the families. Steve was a very dear friend of mine, and he leaves a big void. If anyone has comms with his mother or sister, please pm me.
Fly Safe
SS
Fly Safe
SS
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Rip Steve
I also knew the pilot personnaly. He was the first one who helped me to get a Job in Africa and my very first flight over the African bush was with him. A great personality, great story teller and a really funny guy! But with a real srong english accent with all my respect - thats how most of us gonna remember Steve!
I feel deepest with his family unfortunately i dont have contact to his family! Rest in Peace!
I feel deepest with his family unfortunately i dont have contact to his family! Rest in Peace!
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At this point, no bodies have been recovered from the wreckage, despite media releases from the Congolese Govt, stating that all bodies have been recovered. The retrieval people are still having to rappel down into the site from choppers.
A team from the mining contractors employed locally are using earthmoving equipment to cut an access track to the site; and then, when the crash site is reached by this team, it is expected that a clearing will be opened up, big enough for choppers to land and evacuate the bodies.
A number of bodies are still trapped in the wreckage, and extensive cutting and component removal is required to extract them.
The mining company has officially engaged a team of (currently un-named) "specialist repatriation experts" to handle the bodies recovery and repatriation - and quite likely, the logistics of dealing with both the Cameroon, and Congolese Govts.
As can be seen by the erroneous and misleading statements by Congolese officials, their communication and logistics systems are poor - and a lack of any people in the Congo with serious air crash investigation/recovery/organisational skills, effectively means that the teams are up against major problems.
It's likely that the bodies, when recovered, will be flown to Brazzaville, as the crash happened on Congolese territory. I would hazard a guess that the specialist repatriation experts will try to expedite and cut through any Congolese logistical holdups, to get the bodies onto aircraft out of the country, as soon as possible.
It's highly likely, that due to a lack of any internationally-recognisable aviation safety authority in the Congo, that the crash will never be properly investigated.
In any other jurisdiction, competent air crash investigation authorities and teams would have been in there by now, securing the site, taking photos, and checking control positions, before anything was moved. It's highly likely that no CVR was fitted or working, let alone an FDR.
The Congo Govt is a typical, barely-functioning, 3rd world African Govt. A ceasfire with rebels who controlled serious areas of the country was arranged in 2008, and Presidential elections were held in July 2009, with Denis Sassou Nguesso elected President, amongst reports of "very low" voter turnout, fraud and irregularities.
Under these circumstances, don't expect to see a competent Congolese aviation safety authority arise, any time soon.
A team from the mining contractors employed locally are using earthmoving equipment to cut an access track to the site; and then, when the crash site is reached by this team, it is expected that a clearing will be opened up, big enough for choppers to land and evacuate the bodies.
A number of bodies are still trapped in the wreckage, and extensive cutting and component removal is required to extract them.
The mining company has officially engaged a team of (currently un-named) "specialist repatriation experts" to handle the bodies recovery and repatriation - and quite likely, the logistics of dealing with both the Cameroon, and Congolese Govts.
As can be seen by the erroneous and misleading statements by Congolese officials, their communication and logistics systems are poor - and a lack of any people in the Congo with serious air crash investigation/recovery/organisational skills, effectively means that the teams are up against major problems.
It's likely that the bodies, when recovered, will be flown to Brazzaville, as the crash happened on Congolese territory. I would hazard a guess that the specialist repatriation experts will try to expedite and cut through any Congolese logistical holdups, to get the bodies onto aircraft out of the country, as soon as possible.
It's highly likely, that due to a lack of any internationally-recognisable aviation safety authority in the Congo, that the crash will never be properly investigated.
In any other jurisdiction, competent air crash investigation authorities and teams would have been in there by now, securing the site, taking photos, and checking control positions, before anything was moved. It's highly likely that no CVR was fitted or working, let alone an FDR.
The Congo Govt is a typical, barely-functioning, 3rd world African Govt. A ceasfire with rebels who controlled serious areas of the country was arranged in 2008, and Presidential elections were held in July 2009, with Denis Sassou Nguesso elected President, amongst reports of "very low" voter turnout, fraud and irregularities.
Under these circumstances, don't expect to see a competent Congolese aviation safety authority arise, any time soon.
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RIP Uncle Steve. The times we had in Swk will never be forgotten. Your stories, laughs and advice will always be kept close to our hearts. Condolences to the family he left behind. One day we will all meet up again.
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Steve
Went to school with Steve or Holly as he was known and he was the best man at my wedding 20+ years ago! Lost touch but never forgot him (how could you!?)
Remember his passion for flying from the days we spent plane spotting at Manchester Airport and building an "airfix airforce"
The one consolation is that he died doing what he loved and always aspired to. Condolancies to all his friends and family.
Remember his passion for flying from the days we spent plane spotting at Manchester Airport and building an "airfix airforce"
The one consolation is that he died doing what he loved and always aspired to. Condolancies to all his friends and family.