Is SAX going to order more Q400's and CRJ900's?
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I too have been exposed to 10yrs of SAX (airforce and civvie) instructors and have enjoyed all of it and have never had the slightest bit of trouble or unfair comment from any of them.
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SAX training
Just my small voice to discussion. One of the best with SAX is unique professional training. Disciplined and very clear way of operations (SOP etc). This achievement is due to extremely professional Training Department. My experience with SAX never was easy but always fair and very beneficial to me and this is eight years with SAX before experiencing some "First World" Dash 8 operators.
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Originally Posted by suitcaseman
I dont work for SAX and this is the first time I have heard anything negative about the SAX training so I have no comment or opinion on it....
You simply cannot compare the current SAAF to the SAAF when we were there - the only thing in common is the name.
Mirek - Good to hear from you! How's your Spanish coming on?
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A certain amount of thread-drift here, but some comments posted regarding SAX training deserve a considered response, as a fair degree of emotion is evident - even from experienced SAX pilots.
1) Is perception not reality for the individual? Therefore there are current- and former-SAX employees reading & responding who have/had varying experiences in their dealings with the training dept.
2) There are different instructional cultures in the CRJ and Dash fleets - this is undeniable by recent 'veterans' of both pools. Personality clashes & differences of opinion will invariably arise between instructors and pilots.
3) Virtually every pilot (including, most likely, those who have been 'washed' from SAX training) will agree that all flight training is solidly grounded in SOP. These SOP's are strictly enforced across both fleets to the benefit of experienced and inexperienced pilots alike. Compromising would likely lead to more CRM-related incidents, and potentially to accidents.
4) Flight training at all levels is not easy and not intended to be - the cost of training is too high to allow it to continue indefinitely. Furthermore, not everybody has the same set of skills & abilities - the statisticians will produce a bell-curve that shows how people at the edges of competency (itself a variable concept) will inevitably be excluded - this is true in all spheres of life.
CRJ:
The method of teaching in the CRJ pool is more military in style (save for the two civilian-trained instructors - and what a great pleasure it is to learn from BD & PB plus the CP: FduTleR) and is not always conducive to learning unless perhaps your own background is from the same military environment and you're familiar with it. Is it really enjoyable and/or helpful to be shouted at while in the simulator? Is there not enough pressure as it is?
DH8:
The attitude of the Dash instructors makes for a pleasant learning environment and permits for more of a team effort in attaining initial and on-going competency. They allow room for discussion and disagreement while maintaining the standards.
There are obviously many diffferent methods of imparting information and interacting with crew-in-training, but the Dash instructors (also ex-military interestingly) seem to have achieved this in a more human and 21st century manner than the CRJ instructors.
1) Is perception not reality for the individual? Therefore there are current- and former-SAX employees reading & responding who have/had varying experiences in their dealings with the training dept.
2) There are different instructional cultures in the CRJ and Dash fleets - this is undeniable by recent 'veterans' of both pools. Personality clashes & differences of opinion will invariably arise between instructors and pilots.
3) Virtually every pilot (including, most likely, those who have been 'washed' from SAX training) will agree that all flight training is solidly grounded in SOP. These SOP's are strictly enforced across both fleets to the benefit of experienced and inexperienced pilots alike. Compromising would likely lead to more CRM-related incidents, and potentially to accidents.
4) Flight training at all levels is not easy and not intended to be - the cost of training is too high to allow it to continue indefinitely. Furthermore, not everybody has the same set of skills & abilities - the statisticians will produce a bell-curve that shows how people at the edges of competency (itself a variable concept) will inevitably be excluded - this is true in all spheres of life.
CRJ:
The method of teaching in the CRJ pool is more military in style (save for the two civilian-trained instructors - and what a great pleasure it is to learn from BD & PB plus the CP: FduTleR) and is not always conducive to learning unless perhaps your own background is from the same military environment and you're familiar with it. Is it really enjoyable and/or helpful to be shouted at while in the simulator? Is there not enough pressure as it is?
DH8:
The attitude of the Dash instructors makes for a pleasant learning environment and permits for more of a team effort in attaining initial and on-going competency. They allow room for discussion and disagreement while maintaining the standards.
There are obviously many diffferent methods of imparting information and interacting with crew-in-training, but the Dash instructors (also ex-military interestingly) seem to have achieved this in a more human and 21st century manner than the CRJ instructors.
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read with the intended humour to it, i have to agree with coil in many (if not all) ways.
i'm sorry whom that might offend (honestly and truly i am), but his sentiments reflect far more of the pilot opinions at SAX than people would care to admit.
that said, errorplaneone does sum it up very well indeed.
i'm sorry whom that might offend (honestly and truly i am), but his sentiments reflect far more of the pilot opinions at SAX than people would care to admit.
that said, errorplaneone does sum it up very well indeed.
Last edited by Foo-Fighter; 8th Jan 2010 at 17:21.
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Reptile Said : The fact that you feel like you're getting treated like crap tells me you should possibly be paying a bit more attention to what you're doing in the cockpit and less time trying to blame others.
Let me start by saying you've got to be ex military with a response like that ! Error One has actually responded better than I could have and has expressed views I would agree with 100%, Reptile you're another one who clearly has there head firmly buried in the sand. Of my f/o's I fly with 90-99 percent will say there training was the worst experience of their lives, that is fact and not hearsay.
Do I blame others ? Hardly and don't quite know what you're on about, sort of drivvling on it seems.
So to be more specific and give credit where due, The jet fleet has two normal instructors, we know who there are BeeDee and PB, the rest need their circuits re-set and a course on manners and instruction the 21st century way .
The Dash fleet has certainly improved dramatically over the last few years and the last 3-4 positions have been a breath of fresh air, and so as to avoid being accused of being "anti SAF" all of those besides one are ex SAF and one is ex military..
My post was to mearly highlight what is most definately an issue at SAX and is best spoken about and not ignored as is normally the SAF way with rank and seniority taking priority over relevant issues.
The EX SAF guys who have not yet embraced a civilian culture need to look at themselves very closely and need to take critisiscm where it is needed, they are no longer a bunch of elite people who think they are above civilian pilots. We are all adults who take pride in our work and Ex SAF guys seem to think that they earn respect by keeping to rigid military style cockpit gradients and mannerisms, they need to be dumped as they are dangerous. One can run a brilliant flight deck by being open and civil and in fact when one doesn't have to demand respect by being an assh... respect comes naturally and is more genuine. ( Just my experience )
SAX is a civilian company and needs those hard asses to come to the party, we adapt to them but they don't either have the curtisy to adapt to us or frankly don't care, that is simply rude and arogant.
Mirek I am surprised by your comment as one of the reasons you left was due to the training and that is from you own mouth, I think time has allowed you to remember the fond times as opposed to the bad times.
Dasher 8 , well you're probably so happy you could come back to SAX and feel you owe a sense of graituity, because I've also heard you talk about how "hectic" our instructors can be.
Bee DEE you're great and I love you.
FooFighter thanks for having the balls to say what most people are to scared to say for fear of damage to their careers.
Lastly I have no problem with what the instructors teach I simply ask to put the methods you use in the after burner and try return to humanity, of course it applies only to those types mentioned above.
Let me start by saying you've got to be ex military with a response like that ! Error One has actually responded better than I could have and has expressed views I would agree with 100%, Reptile you're another one who clearly has there head firmly buried in the sand. Of my f/o's I fly with 90-99 percent will say there training was the worst experience of their lives, that is fact and not hearsay.
Do I blame others ? Hardly and don't quite know what you're on about, sort of drivvling on it seems.
So to be more specific and give credit where due, The jet fleet has two normal instructors, we know who there are BeeDee and PB, the rest need their circuits re-set and a course on manners and instruction the 21st century way .
The Dash fleet has certainly improved dramatically over the last few years and the last 3-4 positions have been a breath of fresh air, and so as to avoid being accused of being "anti SAF" all of those besides one are ex SAF and one is ex military..
My post was to mearly highlight what is most definately an issue at SAX and is best spoken about and not ignored as is normally the SAF way with rank and seniority taking priority over relevant issues.
The EX SAF guys who have not yet embraced a civilian culture need to look at themselves very closely and need to take critisiscm where it is needed, they are no longer a bunch of elite people who think they are above civilian pilots. We are all adults who take pride in our work and Ex SAF guys seem to think that they earn respect by keeping to rigid military style cockpit gradients and mannerisms, they need to be dumped as they are dangerous. One can run a brilliant flight deck by being open and civil and in fact when one doesn't have to demand respect by being an assh... respect comes naturally and is more genuine. ( Just my experience )
SAX is a civilian company and needs those hard asses to come to the party, we adapt to them but they don't either have the curtisy to adapt to us or frankly don't care, that is simply rude and arogant.
Mirek I am surprised by your comment as one of the reasons you left was due to the training and that is from you own mouth, I think time has allowed you to remember the fond times as opposed to the bad times.
Dasher 8 , well you're probably so happy you could come back to SAX and feel you owe a sense of graituity, because I've also heard you talk about how "hectic" our instructors can be.
Bee DEE you're great and I love you.
FooFighter thanks for having the balls to say what most people are to scared to say for fear of damage to their careers.
Lastly I have no problem with what the instructors teach I simply ask to put the methods you use in the after burner and try return to humanity, of course it applies only to those types mentioned above.
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Coil, I like your post but...our life can be amazing! Sometimes we need perspective to be objective. I experienced troubles with my training but I have to admit that lot of it was created by myself. OK, sometimes I expected more patience with "my accent" and I experienced even personal clashes, but mostly I try always work on myself. I didn't said that training was ever the reason for going to Europe, this troubles I had already long time behind me...it was reason, serious one, but definitely not personal or training related. Back to perspective. Last two years shockingly proved to me that level of SAX training (I am not again elaborating on its methods) is by far superior. SAX pilots after all sweat can be sure that they are one of the best trained in the world. I don't know, if its possible to maintain this level of professionalism with other methods. Otherwise I will support your crusade. If I have to choose between methods and final effect I am opting for the final result. However you have to admit that last years the methods are also much more "civilised" and I believe professional standard is maintained. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle? And at the end; What about SAX expansion and business plans?
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what a sigh of relief. coil. you said what no onehasever dared to say. i read every single word in your post and you are 100% correct. even for the ppl you love. i say coil for president!!!
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SAX 3rd CRJ700?
Is it true that Horizon has leased out another CRJ700 to South African Express?
Will SAX be extending the leases on their other two CRJ700's? Can we expect anymore CRJ700's from Horizon if this aircraft is indeed heading for South Africa?
Hopefully an order for CRJ900's is still in the pipeline for SAX!
Will SAX be extending the leases on their other two CRJ700's? Can we expect anymore CRJ700's from Horizon if this aircraft is indeed heading for South Africa?
Hopefully an order for CRJ900's is still in the pipeline for SAX!
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You must remember that a lot of, if not most of, the people being trained at SAX are low-timers who come from contract, charter or instruction ops. SAX does indeed provide a better level of training syllabus than those operations. And by using simulators the student feels he/she has moved up in the training world big-time. This gives the illusion of excellent training to them. But the way the training is carried out there leaves a lot to be desired. Middle-of-the-night sim sessions for initial ratings, the ex-mil instructors lording it over them, shouting in the sim, being the big hevs when actually they are in SAX because their erstwhile ex-mil colleagues in the bigger airlines didnt want them there. And it shows.
I completely agree with Coil. The ex-military types at SAX, especially on the CRJ fleet, need to have a very good look at themselves. Their egos are huge. 'Don't eat until I've eaten', hey RI? WTF? Pulling little leather flying gloves on to take off and land with, BG?! Yet they fly little pisscat jets. And its not just the instructors - plenty captains there who act the same. And the company itself isn't all that much to write home about. At all. Pretty fricken disorganised is as far as I'll go now.
There are some good guys who instruct at SAX, but they are in the minority. Compare that with the other airlines, SAA, Comair, 1Time - there are very few if not zero wound-up, cynical, narcisstic instructors.
I could go on but they're actually not worth it.
I completely agree with Coil. The ex-military types at SAX, especially on the CRJ fleet, need to have a very good look at themselves. Their egos are huge. 'Don't eat until I've eaten', hey RI? WTF? Pulling little leather flying gloves on to take off and land with, BG?! Yet they fly little pisscat jets. And its not just the instructors - plenty captains there who act the same. And the company itself isn't all that much to write home about. At all. Pretty fricken disorganised is as far as I'll go now.
There are some good guys who instruct at SAX, but they are in the minority. Compare that with the other airlines, SAA, Comair, 1Time - there are very few if not zero wound-up, cynical, narcisstic instructors.
I could go on but they're actually not worth it.
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Online Pilot Application.
Greetings to all.I filled in the online form a while back.I got an automated response,but I havent got any reply fom them.Has any one been contacted?
I notice the online application did not have fields for flight time and type rating.I thought this were necessary for any pilot application?
Does anyone know an email address or physical add, where I can send a CV with all my hours and types?
DASHER 8:You mentioned recruitment to continue after 2010 soccer,is it on the dash 8 300?as Iam typed on it.
Out of curiosity,will Sax move dash8 training from CAE Spain to the Flight Safety Johannesburg?thanks in advance
I notice the online application did not have fields for flight time and type rating.I thought this were necessary for any pilot application?
Does anyone know an email address or physical add, where I can send a CV with all my hours and types?
DASHER 8:You mentioned recruitment to continue after 2010 soccer,is it on the dash 8 300?as Iam typed on it.
Out of curiosity,will Sax move dash8 training from CAE Spain to the Flight Safety Johannesburg?thanks in advance
Last edited by saxdh8c; 25th Jul 2010 at 20:12. Reason: spelling
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Updates on the CRJ900 & Q400's for SA Express
Any updates on the possible order and arrival of CRJ900's and further Q400's?
Apparently Horizon is selling a further 8 CRJ700's, is South African Express adding anymore to the 3 that they are currently leasing?
Apparently Horizon is selling a further 8 CRJ700's, is South African Express adding anymore to the 3 that they are currently leasing?
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SAX is replacing the Q400 with CR7 aircraft on JNB-GRJ as from next week, so unless they're pulling CR7s from other routes it means they must be getting more.