Grand Van down at Eros
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Of course, the flaps may or may not have been retracted at the crash site. Presumably no one has absolutely any idea at which postion they were at the start of the take off run? An R type C310, for example, can take off, with full flap selected, having forgotten to reset the flap after preflight check,under certain hot, high and full load conditions. I can however, assure you that it does not climb out from 5,500ft @ +/- 20c.
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'experts' on van flying
Guys,
Just a quick one.... I usually manage to resist the urge to respond to threads that were started by fellow aviators looking for sincere and genuine information that then turn into a platform for discussions over textbook aviation.....
But I find it really up-setting that people seem to forget that someone has just lost their life and that the nearest and dearest will desperately be reading every word on this thread!
So please start a new thread to discuss perfomances and pilot errors.....
Unfortunately aviation follows that simple law of gravity that could get any of us.
My thoughts and condolences go out to all touched by this tragic accident.
Passionforflying
Just a quick one.... I usually manage to resist the urge to respond to threads that were started by fellow aviators looking for sincere and genuine information that then turn into a platform for discussions over textbook aviation.....
But I find it really up-setting that people seem to forget that someone has just lost their life and that the nearest and dearest will desperately be reading every word on this thread!
So please start a new thread to discuss perfomances and pilot errors.....
Unfortunately aviation follows that simple law of gravity that could get any of us.
My thoughts and condolences go out to all touched by this tragic accident.
Passionforflying
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But I find it really up-setting that people seem to forget that someone has just lost their life and that the nearest and dearest will desperately be reading every word on this thread!
So please start a new thread to discuss perfomances and pilot errors.....
So please start a new thread to discuss perfomances and pilot errors.....
I disagree with you completely. This is (supposed to be) a professional pilots' website. Family and friends trawling the threads here must expect to see the things that follow from an accident discussed.
This politically correct crap that we don't mention pilot error should stop. Only when we are completely honest with ourselves and others about the probable causes of accidents can we improve safety.
I have no experience of flying the Caravan, but from the discussion here, I have been exposed to the challenges of that a/c type, and discussion with my flight deck colleagues who have flown the 'Van seems to indicate that pilot error (in judgment) was more than likely the cause here.
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Not overload.
The pilot was very experienced with over 500hrs on caravans! The plane had +-600 kilos on board, which I understand is well within t/o limits! This info was obtained unofficially from friends of friends in high places!
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Well, to take then the speculative rumour mill a step more along the path.
600kgs of what and where?
Is that then a Caravan loaded with....
Pilot.
Three (male) pax.
Small allowance of personal baggage.
Fuel for somewhere in Angola. (How far away was destination? Full tanks-is Jet A1 cheaper in Angloa for example.)
600 kilos building supplies or cargo.
???? Rife speculation of course.
You will readily calculate that 4 men @ 75kgs each is 300 kgs. Was there really only a further 300 kgs of fuel, baggage and freight on board and in any way, was that significant.
Also, to those who have five hundred hours on type, is that just enough experience to know your way around the POH without need to reference to it?
600kgs of what and where?
Is that then a Caravan loaded with....
Pilot.
Three (male) pax.
Small allowance of personal baggage.
Fuel for somewhere in Angola. (How far away was destination? Full tanks-is Jet A1 cheaper in Angloa for example.)
600 kilos building supplies or cargo.
???? Rife speculation of course.
You will readily calculate that 4 men @ 75kgs each is 300 kgs. Was there really only a further 300 kgs of fuel, baggage and freight on board and in any way, was that significant.
Also, to those who have five hundred hours on type, is that just enough experience to know your way around the POH without need to reference to it?
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Grand Van Down At Eros
In My 30 Odd Years Flying In Africa I Came Home A Few Times Without My Aircraft - So I'll Never Make A Judgement Or Comment On What Went Wrong Or What The Pilot Did Or Did Not Do To End Up In Scrap Metal - One Must Take All The Elements And Only Then One Will Have Hopefully An Answer - Over Load-wrong Runway-engine Failure - The List Is Endless - Those Who Did Not Made It - May Your Souls Rest In Peace - And If There Are People Who Was Resposible For This Crash May God Have Mercy On Them -
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The plane had +-600 kilos on board, which I understand is well within t/o limits!
I think we know which way its going.
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If there were 600kg's with 4 POB, a Caravan even with full tanks will be close enough to gross for any difference either way to be negligable.
I understand that the stuff was all weighed before loading, so it would appear that the required calculation was done.
For the sake of correctness, jet engines make thrust, propellor engines make power. Thats why turboprops are rated in SHP and not pounds of thrust. The lack of depth of knowledge shown by the proud instructor in this tread is startling. I truely hope you are lying about this qualification, if not its criminal that someone signed the form. Perhaps less time on pprune and more time reading books would be in order.
I understand that the stuff was all weighed before loading, so it would appear that the required calculation was done.
For the sake of correctness, jet engines make thrust, propellor engines make power. Thats why turboprops are rated in SHP and not pounds of thrust. The lack of depth of knowledge shown by the proud instructor in this tread is startling. I truely hope you are lying about this qualification, if not its criminal that someone signed the form. Perhaps less time on pprune and more time reading books would be in order.
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Come on Fuzzy Lager, we know what he meant.
If you want to split hairs, turbo-props produce Torque, 'power' is a very loose decription.
Would you please explain to me in that case what a turbo-fan produces, all it is is a shrouded propellor. (it accellerates a small(er) mass of air quick(er) as opposed to a turbo-prop which accellerates a larger mass of air less quicker).
Only at high alitude where the air become less dense does the exhaust thrust start to have more influenece than the 'thrust' produced by the fan.
Perhaps what you referred to was a pure jet engine which works with exhaust thrust only, but turbo-props and turbo-fans are not so different in principle.
Even on the PT6 there is a value given in the POH for 'residual thrust'.
If you want to split hairs, turbo-props produce Torque, 'power' is a very loose decription.
Would you please explain to me in that case what a turbo-fan produces, all it is is a shrouded propellor. (it accellerates a small(er) mass of air quick(er) as opposed to a turbo-prop which accellerates a larger mass of air less quicker).
Only at high alitude where the air become less dense does the exhaust thrust start to have more influenece than the 'thrust' produced by the fan.
Perhaps what you referred to was a pure jet engine which works with exhaust thrust only, but turbo-props and turbo-fans are not so different in principle.
Even on the PT6 there is a value given in the POH for 'residual thrust'.
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Every airline pilot in the world who has done a conversion course to both an American and a British manufactured public transport aircraft, knows that the British employ terminologies which can be strange and somewhat confusing, probably stemming from the belief that they were the first to create the jet engine.
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Fuzzy said,
'For the sake of correctness, jet engines make thrust, propellor engines make power.'
Does a turbo-fan engine not produce 'power' which is harnessed and used to turn a fan?
Both turbo-fans and turbo-props have their power turbines connected to either a fan or a prop both of which accelerate air backwards pruducing thrust, however a turbo-fan engine also produces thrust (more than a turbo-prop will/can) by means of accelerating air through its core.
Q. How do you get a certain 'thrust' value on a turbo-prop?
A. By setting a specific Torque setting.
Q. How do you get a certain 'thrust' value on a turbo-fan?
A. By setting an specific N1 or EPR setting.
The principle is the same, its just a different method of measuring a value which gives a certain amount of thrust.
Its all getting a but pointless though, but to make a statement about someones ability to instruct and/or fly safely on the basis of a comment posted on here actually shows more about your ability or lack there of to put in into perspective what posting on here is about.
'For the sake of correctness, jet engines make thrust, propellor engines make power.'
Does a turbo-fan engine not produce 'power' which is harnessed and used to turn a fan?
Both turbo-fans and turbo-props have their power turbines connected to either a fan or a prop both of which accelerate air backwards pruducing thrust, however a turbo-fan engine also produces thrust (more than a turbo-prop will/can) by means of accelerating air through its core.
Q. How do you get a certain 'thrust' value on a turbo-prop?
A. By setting a specific Torque setting.
Q. How do you get a certain 'thrust' value on a turbo-fan?
A. By setting an specific N1 or EPR setting.
The principle is the same, its just a different method of measuring a value which gives a certain amount of thrust.
Its all getting a but pointless though, but to make a statement about someones ability to instruct and/or fly safely on the basis of a comment posted on here actually shows more about your ability or lack there of to put in into perspective what posting on here is about.
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May the sadness of the event overpower your self righteousness and cause you to pay closer attention to flying and the respect it deserves in all its detail.
Fuzzy out
Fuzzy out
Last edited by Fuzzy Lager; 23rd Nov 2009 at 16:27.
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Ha ha ha....not at all Fuzzy, I will happily read what others have to say, including your goodself.
I wouldn't lose my temper because of something on prune, I think you have once again misunderstood a post.
I now see you have edited your post where you said I was having a tantrum, what happened, re-read your post and realised how silly it sounded?
I wouldn't lose my temper because of something on prune, I think you have once again misunderstood a post.
I now see you have edited your post where you said I was having a tantrum, what happened, re-read your post and realised how silly it sounded?
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Ah well, was/is an interesting discussion and less we forget someone died in this accident which kind of puts the difference of opinion and semantics into perspective, but never the less, we can only try to learn from other peoples' mistakes.
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Van Crash Fywe
I must say that the human race just does not stop to amuse me - alot of most intresting facts came up through this crash - only got one question - If the flaps were up - and according to the only non-flying passenger - they went down nose up attitude and one wing first into the ground - what does that say - if the pilot did decides to retract the flaps to gain more speed to climb better - was that the right or wrong desision - the question now - if he did retract the flaps - what was the speed and the bank angle to the west - but then again we can write-we can talk - but will we ever know what really happend out there - in this regard I think I'll close the book and just say again - my they rest in peace - Cheers and safe flying out there !!!!
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''I must say that the human race just does not stop to amuse me''
Why, because some members of this amusing human race ask questions in the wake of an accident, as opposed to spouting the usual public hand-wringing and general mawkishness? (before you have a go at me, I knew somebody on board, too) Namibia has suffered an absolutely appalling accident-rate in the last few years. If this situation does not improve dramatically, and quickly, the regulators are quite likely to impose some draconian laws which may severely impact on the aviation scene. It is necessary to establish what went wrong, so as to learn from it. See Nugpot's post above.
Why, because some members of this amusing human race ask questions in the wake of an accident, as opposed to spouting the usual public hand-wringing and general mawkishness? (before you have a go at me, I knew somebody on board, too) Namibia has suffered an absolutely appalling accident-rate in the last few years. If this situation does not improve dramatically, and quickly, the regulators are quite likely to impose some draconian laws which may severely impact on the aviation scene. It is necessary to establish what went wrong, so as to learn from it. See Nugpot's post above.