Change at SAA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: South Africa
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After following this post, I'll give my 2 cents worth. SAA, like SAX, Eskom, Telkom, etc, is a parastatal, which means it's an employment generating machine for the government, so any privitisation is not going to happen soon, besides Airbus pays handsome "bribes" to the officials who are responsible for fleet acquisitions. A good book to read is Jetlag, by Dennis Beckett to get a good perspective on SAA's history post 1994.
Pilots running an Airline.... I didn't learn how to fly because I wanted to sit behind a desk... There are people who are well qualified to run an Airline out there, our government just has to put a stop to nepotism and enriching themselves and their friends and things would get better. I guess that's like asking for the crime rate in SA to drop by 90%.
I don't work for SAA, there are days where I think about applying to SAA, but sitting for 13 years in the right hand seat to get command on an A319 makes me think twice.
I have a lot of friends at SAA and I don't think their egos are any bigger than most pilots out there, me included. Is the ego not part of the passion we have for what we do? Yes there are extremes, as someone once said to me "We are all nice people, some just hide it better than others". As for calling the Pilot in Command Captain, I can see the logic behind it, especially when working with some Cabin Crew who need to reminded there is an authority gradient that has to be adhered to. The salaries they earn are huge, I wouldn't say no to it, it's a testament to SAAPA and lets convert their salary into US Dollars and compare it to other International Airlines, are they that far off Industry Standard?
Whether you fly a C150 for R180 an hour or a 747-400 for R100 000 a month it beats working for a living.
Pilots running an Airline.... I didn't learn how to fly because I wanted to sit behind a desk... There are people who are well qualified to run an Airline out there, our government just has to put a stop to nepotism and enriching themselves and their friends and things would get better. I guess that's like asking for the crime rate in SA to drop by 90%.
I don't work for SAA, there are days where I think about applying to SAA, but sitting for 13 years in the right hand seat to get command on an A319 makes me think twice.
I have a lot of friends at SAA and I don't think their egos are any bigger than most pilots out there, me included. Is the ego not part of the passion we have for what we do? Yes there are extremes, as someone once said to me "We are all nice people, some just hide it better than others". As for calling the Pilot in Command Captain, I can see the logic behind it, especially when working with some Cabin Crew who need to reminded there is an authority gradient that has to be adhered to. The salaries they earn are huge, I wouldn't say no to it, it's a testament to SAAPA and lets convert their salary into US Dollars and compare it to other International Airlines, are they that far off Industry Standard?
Whether you fly a C150 for R180 an hour or a 747-400 for R100 000 a month it beats working for a living.
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As long as the Government dictates how SAA should be run and who should run it they must be prepared to pay for their lack of wisdom.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Bubbly Lover and Sir Osis,
One should refrain from attacking the individual or personality, but if that is by the wayside, I would like to offer my tuppence worth. The pilots flying under the SAA banner are some of the finest aviators I have come across. Their professionalism and dedication to the task at hand is pretty awesome. I have had the priveledge of flying with airforce jocks and civvy jocks (more airforce, more longer), probably an experience that neither of you have had. If you have, then my apologies are tendered, but the three of us should then sort this out over some beverages. I could say that the domestic scene should be left to the SAA guys, but I won't.. (I'll only "think"it
).
The airforce guys don't know it all, neither do the civvy guys, neither do the SAA guys, nor the Comair, 1time, or Anglo guys. I have made a habit of learning from each and applying that to my "style". If its good-keep, if its not- discard. To talk about arrogance, well, maybe you should take some time out and get to know some of "those (real) SAA guys", you may be quite surprised to find they are just normal people doing the best they can. I personally don't know of many (including senior training captains)that aren't open to discussion or new ideas. And there is no "Captain", "Sir" BS, only that acquired by respect for the individual.... (if formally required at all).
Ernest K. Gann wrote a wonderfil book, "Fate is the Hunter". Do yourselves a favour and read it every couple of years (over your favourite tipple by the river). It gives one a reality check like nothing else. Adios amigos.
One should refrain from attacking the individual or personality, but if that is by the wayside, I would like to offer my tuppence worth. The pilots flying under the SAA banner are some of the finest aviators I have come across. Their professionalism and dedication to the task at hand is pretty awesome. I have had the priveledge of flying with airforce jocks and civvy jocks (more airforce, more longer), probably an experience that neither of you have had. If you have, then my apologies are tendered, but the three of us should then sort this out over some beverages. I could say that the domestic scene should be left to the SAA guys, but I won't.. (I'll only "think"it
). The airforce guys don't know it all, neither do the civvy guys, neither do the SAA guys, nor the Comair, 1time, or Anglo guys. I have made a habit of learning from each and applying that to my "style". If its good-keep, if its not- discard. To talk about arrogance, well, maybe you should take some time out and get to know some of "those (real) SAA guys", you may be quite surprised to find they are just normal people doing the best they can. I personally don't know of many (including senior training captains)that aren't open to discussion or new ideas. And there is no "Captain", "Sir" BS, only that acquired by respect for the individual.... (if formally required at all).
Ernest K. Gann wrote a wonderfil book, "Fate is the Hunter". Do yourselves a favour and read it every couple of years (over your favourite tipple by the river). It gives one a reality check like nothing else. Adios amigos.
Last edited by Doodlebug2; 8th Oct 2008 at 19:23. Reason: Punctuation..maybe spelling!
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Tell me this question please.
Why do you fly SAA to Europe?
Okey, Munich is handy but cabin crew are terrible -most important safety but service also. Ticket prices are not cheap, food is sometime uneatable coming south/north, not so bad north/south. Terminal 1 LHR is revolting, admit better than T111.
So why did I fly?
Because on last four flights aircraft was almost empty so had 3/4 seats myself.
Keep up good work. My favourite private airline company is SAA. Please do not change one bit.
Must tell you though, pilots are top gun, think so too.
Why do you fly SAA to Europe?
Okey, Munich is handy but cabin crew are terrible -most important safety but service also. Ticket prices are not cheap, food is sometime uneatable coming south/north, not so bad north/south. Terminal 1 LHR is revolting, admit better than T111.
So why did I fly?
Because on last four flights aircraft was almost empty so had 3/4 seats myself.
Keep up good work. My favourite private airline company is SAA. Please do not change one bit.
Must tell you though, pilots are top gun, think so too.
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Well said
D-Bug2,
Well said. A good post. (BTW, your apology is accepted.)
My post however did not malign any of the SAA drivers that I regularly have a tipple or two with, (Alas, no river but a dam wil do). I realize that they are just the victims here and are forced to accept the salaries given to them.
Unfortunately, if the airline was privatised, those same salaries would evaporate, as might their jobs. That is the point. It is not sustainable in the present economic climate. Their management has to come to terms with this, as do their unions. Nuff said.
(PS, I do have a first edition copy of Fate is the Hunter and it is, in my humble opinion, the greatest book ever written on the subject of aviation.
Well said. A good post. (BTW, your apology is accepted.)
My post however did not malign any of the SAA drivers that I regularly have a tipple or two with, (Alas, no river but a dam wil do). I realize that they are just the victims here and are forced to accept the salaries given to them.
Unfortunately, if the airline was privatised, those same salaries would evaporate, as might their jobs. That is the point. It is not sustainable in the present economic climate. Their management has to come to terms with this, as do their unions. Nuff said.
(PS, I do have a first edition copy of Fate is the Hunter and it is, in my humble opinion, the greatest book ever written on the subject of aviation.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Suitcaseman - wouldn't it be nice if you posted your credentials here so we could judge you - you must be a pleasure to fly with.
1. You will find on the SAA A340's (three different models) that there is a vast variance in the levels of PA even on aircraft with sequential serial numbers. Getting your pitch across is not as straight forward as you might like to think.
2. Given the manner in which the airline is run - I am still amazed by how professionally the majority of my colleagues conduct their PA announcements. Just what are you going to say that is going to impress the guy who has been ridden roughshod from booking to boarding?
3. PA is a personal issue - many a time I have thought the plethora of announcements made by the cabin crew in delightful language and by pre recording are just too many - nobody pays attention especially if they cannot hear or if it is too loud. Who cares if you cannot smoke in the terminal and why is it the airlines problem? - you get my drift too much useless info!
4. What exactly would you have liked to have heard? The ETA? - on the screen, the speed/altitude/routing? - on the screen. Are you sure that what you wanted to hear would be as interesting to the other couple of hundred people around you?
5. Are we to assume you were wide awake monitoring the whole flight to notice the seat belt signs the entire time?
6. The cabin service I find has a marked lack of consistency - in my experience it is determinded directly by the attitude of the senior cabin attendant. If that person is lazy, incompetent, rude or unwilling so the service will be. It is easy to identify these people - but prey tell how does one prove any of the above in our airline with it's penchant for cronyism and then how does one get rid of them in our society with it's labour law?
I am sure for each time you have experienced this level of "service" I could find some one who has enjoyed the flight.
7. As for your comment about the landing - again an insight into what you fly might be important here - but I jumpseat a lot and often I find myself second guessing the landing from 3a, 43c or where ever, but I would never be so bold as to assume I had the full picture from my position of comfort outside the kitchen as it were. A hard firm landing on the markers beats a soft smooth transition half way down the park for me every time. Furthermore if you have ever landed the A340 you would know that pulling off a smooth landing on the markers is damn nigh impossible given that the centre gear will never touch where the main wheels touch - so you are bound to have two thuds - the second very nearly always more harsh than the first. Having said that it does happen on occassion and I must say in over four years on the bus I have only experienced one landing that I would call a controlled crash - that was my first in a 600 with a 23 knot crosswind at Frankfurt - and I also did not know what to say!! Afterward I thought I should have said something but I was under training and just keeping quiet seemed the best thing to do! I should have said "even Tiger hits it in the rough on ocassion" - some how I suspect even that would not amuse you!
Finally - in my personal operation I try to say very little on the PA. (I was once chastisd by a passenger for saying too much while they were trying to sleep between CT and Durban on and then again a few weeks later for not saying anything between Antigua and New York). I find keeping the seat belts on as much as possible covers me in the event of some CAT and from personal experience know that very few passengers obey the signs anyway, especially if nature calls - so where is the harm?
I take it you got there safely but based on your many vociferous anti SAA posts I can't help but wonder if your outlook on life is not determining how you experience it? Of course you are probably going to say none of the above is valid because you were in a 747.
Never, drop the aeroplane while you are trying to fly the PA. Tailwinds.
1. You will find on the SAA A340's (three different models) that there is a vast variance in the levels of PA even on aircraft with sequential serial numbers. Getting your pitch across is not as straight forward as you might like to think.
2. Given the manner in which the airline is run - I am still amazed by how professionally the majority of my colleagues conduct their PA announcements. Just what are you going to say that is going to impress the guy who has been ridden roughshod from booking to boarding?
3. PA is a personal issue - many a time I have thought the plethora of announcements made by the cabin crew in delightful language and by pre recording are just too many - nobody pays attention especially if they cannot hear or if it is too loud. Who cares if you cannot smoke in the terminal and why is it the airlines problem? - you get my drift too much useless info!
4. What exactly would you have liked to have heard? The ETA? - on the screen, the speed/altitude/routing? - on the screen. Are you sure that what you wanted to hear would be as interesting to the other couple of hundred people around you?
5. Are we to assume you were wide awake monitoring the whole flight to notice the seat belt signs the entire time?
6. The cabin service I find has a marked lack of consistency - in my experience it is determinded directly by the attitude of the senior cabin attendant. If that person is lazy, incompetent, rude or unwilling so the service will be. It is easy to identify these people - but prey tell how does one prove any of the above in our airline with it's penchant for cronyism and then how does one get rid of them in our society with it's labour law?
I am sure for each time you have experienced this level of "service" I could find some one who has enjoyed the flight.
7. As for your comment about the landing - again an insight into what you fly might be important here - but I jumpseat a lot and often I find myself second guessing the landing from 3a, 43c or where ever, but I would never be so bold as to assume I had the full picture from my position of comfort outside the kitchen as it were. A hard firm landing on the markers beats a soft smooth transition half way down the park for me every time. Furthermore if you have ever landed the A340 you would know that pulling off a smooth landing on the markers is damn nigh impossible given that the centre gear will never touch where the main wheels touch - so you are bound to have two thuds - the second very nearly always more harsh than the first. Having said that it does happen on occassion and I must say in over four years on the bus I have only experienced one landing that I would call a controlled crash - that was my first in a 600 with a 23 knot crosswind at Frankfurt - and I also did not know what to say!! Afterward I thought I should have said something but I was under training and just keeping quiet seemed the best thing to do! I should have said "even Tiger hits it in the rough on ocassion" - some how I suspect even that would not amuse you!
Finally - in my personal operation I try to say very little on the PA. (I was once chastisd by a passenger for saying too much while they were trying to sleep between CT and Durban on and then again a few weeks later for not saying anything between Antigua and New York). I find keeping the seat belts on as much as possible covers me in the event of some CAT and from personal experience know that very few passengers obey the signs anyway, especially if nature calls - so where is the harm?
I take it you got there safely but based on your many vociferous anti SAA posts I can't help but wonder if your outlook on life is not determining how you experience it? Of course you are probably going to say none of the above is valid because you were in a 747.
Never, drop the aeroplane while you are trying to fly the PA. Tailwinds.
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Although all a bit off topic, I'm with suitcaseman on this one.
Firstly, I just find it good professional and good mannered if the flightdeck makes an anouncement from time to time, especially during daytime flights - it is comforting for the passengers and does a lot for customer loyalty. Even if it is not everybody on board, at least a larger percentage like to know some technical details about the flight - as an example I was once on a flight, where the captain mentioned our actual take off weight on a 747 and how much fuel we would use for the flight and what weather was to be expected and the other usual stuff. It brings flying closer to the people, that do not understand anything about it and increases their trust and belief, that they are in good hands and that makes people feel comfortable. Then he mentioned major landmarks and cities during the flight from time to time - all in all however he probably not even spent more than 4 minutes of total talking during the 10 hour flight but conveyed a lot of interesting things. Showing an open approachable personality and enthusiasm for your job sparks positiv reaction on people psychologically and it even makes that flight memorable, just because you did something different than everybody else - like a pinch of salt in right amounts.
Secondly, I have never had a real bad landing in an Airbus A340 ever - some were smoother than others, but nothing to write home about either way. Best one was actually a Turkish Airlines Copilot doing his first landing ever in the real aircraft... ;-)
Now slightly back to the topic - SAA probably does very little if anything at all and Actuator seems to be part of that boring agenda now, keeping his mouth shut because one daunting passenger opened his... ag shame man!
Firstly, I just find it good professional and good mannered if the flightdeck makes an anouncement from time to time, especially during daytime flights - it is comforting for the passengers and does a lot for customer loyalty. Even if it is not everybody on board, at least a larger percentage like to know some technical details about the flight - as an example I was once on a flight, where the captain mentioned our actual take off weight on a 747 and how much fuel we would use for the flight and what weather was to be expected and the other usual stuff. It brings flying closer to the people, that do not understand anything about it and increases their trust and belief, that they are in good hands and that makes people feel comfortable. Then he mentioned major landmarks and cities during the flight from time to time - all in all however he probably not even spent more than 4 minutes of total talking during the 10 hour flight but conveyed a lot of interesting things. Showing an open approachable personality and enthusiasm for your job sparks positiv reaction on people psychologically and it even makes that flight memorable, just because you did something different than everybody else - like a pinch of salt in right amounts.
Secondly, I have never had a real bad landing in an Airbus A340 ever - some were smoother than others, but nothing to write home about either way. Best one was actually a Turkish Airlines Copilot doing his first landing ever in the real aircraft... ;-)
Now slightly back to the topic - SAA probably does very little if anything at all and Actuator seems to be part of that boring agenda now, keeping his mouth shut because one daunting passenger opened his... ag shame man!
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The other problem lies with the glorified shoppers onboard who are supposed to serve you.
Leave the seatbelt light on, and they won't allow you get out of your seat to get to the toilet. Explain to them that there has been no turbulence for over an hour, and you get told you are undermining their AUTHORITY and are being difficult - regardless of the fact that I might be dribbling in my pants already.
You cant mention anything to these numb-skulled excuses for cabin attendants, or get seen as being uncooperative and best of all racist - yes - I am a racist because I dont want to piss myself in my seat. Racist too for asking them to turn down the bleeding heat slightly, and racist for sure, for asking the herd of overweight big-5 imitators to keep it down in the galley at 3am - and probably spoiled their imminent orgy...so yes...
Leave the seatbelt light on, and they won't allow you get out of your seat to get to the toilet. Explain to them that there has been no turbulence for over an hour, and you get told you are undermining their AUTHORITY and are being difficult - regardless of the fact that I might be dribbling in my pants already.
You cant mention anything to these numb-skulled excuses for cabin attendants, or get seen as being uncooperative and best of all racist - yes - I am a racist because I dont want to piss myself in my seat. Racist too for asking them to turn down the bleeding heat slightly, and racist for sure, for asking the herd of overweight big-5 imitators to keep it down in the galley at 3am - and probably spoiled their imminent orgy...so yes...
