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Sloppy is as sloppy does
Here's a thought... if one adopts trendy, fad ideas, takes shortcuts, makes unnecessary abbreviations and is generally sloppy in the way one talks and writes, is it fair to assume the same parameters and ethics apply all the way to how one flies as well? If one does not apply the rules of speech and grammar, does that mean one does not apply the rules of aerodynamics, airlaw and good airmanship. Or is that taking it too far?
I recently flew on a national carrier where the cabin crew were totally disinterested in their job, the flightcrew were so bored as to barely be able to make a coherent pa announcement, and generally the whole service reeked of apathy and lethargy. Shortly afterwards this carrier had a serious fatal crash. One assumes that apathy at ground level goes all the way to the top - and vice versa. Apathy at the top goes all the way down the ranks.
So in summary, if you cannot be bothered to talk or write properly, can you be bothered to fly properly?
I recently flew on a national carrier where the cabin crew were totally disinterested in their job, the flightcrew were so bored as to barely be able to make a coherent pa announcement, and generally the whole service reeked of apathy and lethargy. Shortly afterwards this carrier had a serious fatal crash. One assumes that apathy at ground level goes all the way to the top - and vice versa. Apathy at the top goes all the way down the ranks.
So in summary, if you cannot be bothered to talk or write properly, can you be bothered to fly properly?
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Coleman M,
This thread is long overdue. Well said that man!
I believe this sums it up perfectly (Pasted from Foxcotte's earlier posting):
Coleman, i cannot agree with you more.
As professional aviators (or even amateur pilots), we're supposed to have reached a certain level of education, professionalism, responsibility and the ability to make ourselves clearly understood all around the world. Our lives and those behind us, depend on it after all. Yes, slang is trendy, and yes, we're all in the abominable habit of abbreviating communication for mobile phones, but as writing is rapidly becoming a dying art, I think the least we can do is try and make an effort when going public with written comments.
Bring back grammar, bring back punctuation, and most of all bring back text we can read and understood. Hell, bring back Shakespeare and Dickens - they would be fantastic to hear over the frequencies!
ATC: Wherefore art thou Speedbird 321?
PILOT: What dulcit tone is that I hear as yonder sunrise breaks?
COPILOT: Methinks he doth protest too much...
It would be truly wonderful!
Spot on.
This thread is long overdue. Well said that man!
I believe this sums it up perfectly (Pasted from Foxcotte's earlier posting):
Coleman, i cannot agree with you more.
As professional aviators (or even amateur pilots), we're supposed to have reached a certain level of education, professionalism, responsibility and the ability to make ourselves clearly understood all around the world. Our lives and those behind us, depend on it after all. Yes, slang is trendy, and yes, we're all in the abominable habit of abbreviating communication for mobile phones, but as writing is rapidly becoming a dying art, I think the least we can do is try and make an effort when going public with written comments.
Bring back grammar, bring back punctuation, and most of all bring back text we can read and understood. Hell, bring back Shakespeare and Dickens - they would be fantastic to hear over the frequencies!
ATC: Wherefore art thou Speedbird 321?
PILOT: What dulcit tone is that I hear as yonder sunrise breaks?
COPILOT: Methinks he doth protest too much...
It would be truly wonderful!
Spot on.
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Wazzuuuuupppp, Homies!
Something about glass houses and the impropriety of flinging stones about springs to mind...
Bring back grammar, bring back punctuation, and most of all bring back text we can read and understood.
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Gotcha!
Okay, can I get away with saying that it was a reading and spelling test to see if anyone was paying close attention?
No? Okay can I then blame an unfamiliar keyboard? Or an over hasty pressing of the submit key?
No? Okay, I will take due note of the report card saying "must do better and should apply oneself to the matter in hand" and go and practice taking better aim with my stones....
No? Okay can I then blame an unfamiliar keyboard? Or an over hasty pressing of the submit key?
No? Okay, I will take due note of the report card saying "must do better and should apply oneself to the matter in hand" and go and practice taking better aim with my stones....
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Foxcotte, I couldn't agree with you more about apathy towards writing and grammar spilling over into peoples professional attitude. I'd like to add a funny (although not really) story about an interview I recently conducted:
This young lady had actually included Cell-phone short-hand as one of her talents
At the end of her "Why I'd like to work for you" speel, she wrote: "Thanx"
Is the use of the "x" really saving you that much time?
Bottom line, If you can't take the time to read and speak properly, how can you expect us to think you'll pay any more attention to the other things in life.
This young lady had actually included Cell-phone short-hand as one of her talents
At the end of her "Why I'd like to work for you" speel, she wrote: "Thanx"
Is the use of the "x" really saving you that much time?
Bottom line, If you can't take the time to read and speak properly, how can you expect us to think you'll pay any more attention to the other things in life.
).
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Linguistic Validity
At the end of the day, African Aviation does have one of the worst safety records in the world, and it could be argued that language and understanding might be a small factor in some of the pointless, stupid actions that occur in the skies above us here. So I think talking (in good grammatical, punctuated English of course) about this subject is entirely valid.
Besides which, Africa is also a true melting-pot of languages; everything from English, Portuguese, French, Spanish, Bantu, Swahili, Maasai, Pokot, Luo, Luhya, Zulu, Xhosa, Arabic etcetera. So in conclusion, my friends, Romans and countrymen, I would say that the discussion about slang and proper language is probably more valid to be in the Africa Forum than some of the others.
Et tu Brutus?!!
Besides which, Africa is also a true melting-pot of languages; everything from English, Portuguese, French, Spanish, Bantu, Swahili, Maasai, Pokot, Luo, Luhya, Zulu, Xhosa, Arabic etcetera. So in conclusion, my friends, Romans and countrymen, I would say that the discussion about slang and proper language is probably more valid to be in the Africa Forum than some of the others.
Et tu Brutus?!!
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Hi SRT. It is like fishing with 160 lb breaking strain is it not? Chelano you are 
nal, but I do declare your command of the noble English language is profound.
Blue skies to you all.
nal, but I do declare your command of the noble English language is profound.Blue skies to you all.
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Apology
The thread seems to have generated much interest and varied responses. A great deal of fair points have been raised.
Having been banned for a week I apologise for offending others and the moderator.My intention was neither racist nor unkind, just stating the facts as I, a second language speaker / writer, am seeing them.In this case the "pot" is very black along with the kettle.
Chileno, maybe it has'nt been moved because it relates directly to aviation safety ?.In our part of the world safety is a daily issue. I recall recently a B777 crew of a major African carrier repeatedly failing their type rating, sim and line checks, not for lack of skill, but purely because of their insufficient grasp of written and conversational comprehension of English. Your thoughts ?.
Having been banned for a week I apologise for offending others and the moderator.My intention was neither racist nor unkind, just stating the facts as I, a second language speaker / writer, am seeing them.In this case the "pot" is very black along with the kettle.
Chileno, maybe it has'nt been moved because it relates directly to aviation safety ?.In our part of the world safety is a daily issue. I recall recently a B777 crew of a major African carrier repeatedly failing their type rating, sim and line checks, not for lack of skill, but purely because of their insufficient grasp of written and conversational comprehension of English. Your thoughts ?.
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I agree that this topic is critical to safety.
I have been the on-board engineer for a number of ferry flights between Cape Town and various destinations as far as Abidjan on the West Coast and Pemba on the East and my very basic Portuguese and French has been invaluable to the pilots who were busy eneough with the flying without trying to decode Portuguese/French or terribly spoken English.
Some of these pilots have been new to Africa, let alone ferry flying in Africa and they have been often at wits end trying to understand things.
I have been the on-board engineer for a number of ferry flights between Cape Town and various destinations as far as Abidjan on the West Coast and Pemba on the East and my very basic Portuguese and French has been invaluable to the pilots who were busy eneough with the flying without trying to decode Portuguese/French or terribly spoken English.
Some of these pilots have been new to Africa, let alone ferry flying in Africa and they have been often at wits end trying to understand things.
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English and other languages in Africa...
Yes, should you fly in Africa, knowledge of basics of French and Portuguese is definitely a recommendation, and be ready to understand some (quite) variable levels of English language.
xxx
The extent of the former British Empire nations is nearly equal to the nations which were "Colonies Françaises" and the Belgian territories of Congo, Rwanda and Burundi using French as well. Further, you will often overfly (or land) in Angola or Mozambique where Portuguese is used.
xxx
I often read the forums of pilots who are inquiring about education and training, about what is recommended in i.e. maths and physics... Honest, to be a pilot, a good scientific subjects background of secondary education level should be sufficient to pass the ATPL written exams. Why not consider the study of languages such as French, and Spanish/Portuguese. It would be invaluable for Africa... And should you be hired by an African airline or airplane operator, I would say, it is a must.
xxx
Two weeks of "total immersion" at a Berlitz language school (or equivalent) with French and or Spanish/Portuguese is definitely sufficient to handle these languages in the aviation environment. A "total immersion" program can be tailored to your needs, and have your language teacher telling you how to ask for wind direction, altitudes or levels, how to say visibility or ceiling. With "total immersion" it is often a one-to-one teacher/student, so it is up to you to specify your vocabulary needs.
xxx
Note: I said Spanish/Portuguese... Spanish is of almost no use in Africa but I recommend it to European and North American pilots, because of being of use in Central/South America... If you speak Spanish, you can understand a lot of Portuguese, and they can understand you. Fact is, in Angola and Mozambique, I noticed that they use a more "Brazilian" Portuguese vocabulary and accent. When I massacre Portuguese in Brazil, Angola and Mozambique, I make a mix with Spanish... I call it "Portuñol"...
xxx
Ppune benefit - your first lesson in French, Spanish and Portuguese.
Learn the numbers... in case of ATC confusion.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. 0 =
FRENCH - hun, deh, trwa, katreh, sink, sees, set, wheet, nof, zayro -
SPANISH - unoh, doss, tress, kwatro, sinko, sess, seeyeteh, otsho, nweveh, seroh -
PORTUGUESE - oom, doysh, tresh, kwatro, sinko, seysh, seteh, oytoh, nohveh, seroh -
xxx
Anecdote about Kinshasa...
I had noticed that the tower always gave the wind to be 250º/10 knots, when the wind is quite different... I inquired why. Apparently, tower controllers learn English communications in training, in Brussels, and did learn to say (in English) "wind iz two fife zeero at won zeero knots"... So, as they are good students, that is exactly what they will give you as wind, for their entire career. M'dio bwana...
xxx
Oh - I forgot - two PortuGEEZE - one PortuGOOSE...
Happy contrails
xxx
The extent of the former British Empire nations is nearly equal to the nations which were "Colonies Françaises" and the Belgian territories of Congo, Rwanda and Burundi using French as well. Further, you will often overfly (or land) in Angola or Mozambique where Portuguese is used.
xxx
I often read the forums of pilots who are inquiring about education and training, about what is recommended in i.e. maths and physics... Honest, to be a pilot, a good scientific subjects background of secondary education level should be sufficient to pass the ATPL written exams. Why not consider the study of languages such as French, and Spanish/Portuguese. It would be invaluable for Africa... And should you be hired by an African airline or airplane operator, I would say, it is a must.
xxx
Two weeks of "total immersion" at a Berlitz language school (or equivalent) with French and or Spanish/Portuguese is definitely sufficient to handle these languages in the aviation environment. A "total immersion" program can be tailored to your needs, and have your language teacher telling you how to ask for wind direction, altitudes or levels, how to say visibility or ceiling. With "total immersion" it is often a one-to-one teacher/student, so it is up to you to specify your vocabulary needs.
xxx
Note: I said Spanish/Portuguese... Spanish is of almost no use in Africa but I recommend it to European and North American pilots, because of being of use in Central/South America... If you speak Spanish, you can understand a lot of Portuguese, and they can understand you. Fact is, in Angola and Mozambique, I noticed that they use a more "Brazilian" Portuguese vocabulary and accent. When I massacre Portuguese in Brazil, Angola and Mozambique, I make a mix with Spanish... I call it "Portuñol"...
xxx
Ppune benefit - your first lesson in French, Spanish and Portuguese.
Learn the numbers... in case of ATC confusion.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. 0 =
FRENCH - hun, deh, trwa, katreh, sink, sees, set, wheet, nof, zayro -
SPANISH - unoh, doss, tress, kwatro, sinko, sess, seeyeteh, otsho, nweveh, seroh -
PORTUGUESE - oom, doysh, tresh, kwatro, sinko, seysh, seteh, oytoh, nohveh, seroh -
xxx
Anecdote about Kinshasa...
I had noticed that the tower always gave the wind to be 250º/10 knots, when the wind is quite different... I inquired why. Apparently, tower controllers learn English communications in training, in Brussels, and did learn to say (in English) "wind iz two fife zeero at won zeero knots"... So, as they are good students, that is exactly what they will give you as wind, for their entire career. M'dio bwana...
xxx
Oh - I forgot - two PortuGEEZE - one PortuGOOSE...
Happy contrails
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Reality Cheque please !
Please be advised that only ICAO signatory states are required to use English as an aviation language.
Even countries like Algeria which have adopted ICAO systems are not signatories to ICAO and are not therefore under any obligation to controll in English. ( Even though it is the Queens language ).
So next time one feels inclined to mouth off at a controller for not using English check your Jepp to see if you are in an ICAO country's airspace.
Most of West and Central Africa (also Madagascar)are affiliated to ASECNA, not ICAO so they are doing you a favour by speaking English to you.
I feel it is the height of arrogance to expect the rest of the world to speak English without us having to make any effort to accomodate other widley spoken international languages.
I have collegues who have flown in Francophone Africa for years who are still incapable of ordering a so much as a beer in a local language anywhere between Luanda and Algiers because " English is the International Aviation Language", so they think everyone else should speak it.
I agree with BelArgUSA's comments and I think that spending an afternoon learning to count to 10 in French and Portuguese will do more to improve air safety in africa than trying to change and alter the entire aviation culture of other people's countries.
Uma cerveja per favor amigo.
Un bier sil voux plez mon amis.
Min faartlahk ais wahid beer sadigi. (although not during Ramadan in daylight)
Even countries like Algeria which have adopted ICAO systems are not signatories to ICAO and are not therefore under any obligation to controll in English. ( Even though it is the Queens language ).
So next time one feels inclined to mouth off at a controller for not using English check your Jepp to see if you are in an ICAO country's airspace.
Most of West and Central Africa (also Madagascar)are affiliated to ASECNA, not ICAO so they are doing you a favour by speaking English to you.
I feel it is the height of arrogance to expect the rest of the world to speak English without us having to make any effort to accomodate other widley spoken international languages.
I have collegues who have flown in Francophone Africa for years who are still incapable of ordering a so much as a beer in a local language anywhere between Luanda and Algiers because " English is the International Aviation Language", so they think everyone else should speak it.
I agree with BelArgUSA's comments and I think that spending an afternoon learning to count to 10 in French and Portuguese will do more to improve air safety in africa than trying to change and alter the entire aviation culture of other people's countries.
Uma cerveja per favor amigo.
Un bier sil voux plez mon amis.
Min faartlahk ais wahid beer sadigi. (although not during Ramadan in daylight)
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I don't even want to get involved in a political thread like this one, but the origin of this thread got a smile to my face reminding me of an old joke:
How do you know someone is multi lingual? He's a black South African.
How do you know someone is bi-lingual? He's a white South African
and someone that only speaks one language? He's an english speaking, white South African.
This is meant as a joke only - don't take me seriously. (If it's true, it's your own fault)
How do you know someone is multi lingual? He's a black South African.
How do you know someone is bi-lingual? He's a white South African
and someone that only speaks one language? He's an english speaking, white South African.
This is meant as a joke only - don't take me seriously. (If it's true, it's your own fault)
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Aha
cforty7, as you come from a country that appears to have three national anthems in order to please everybody, I can understand your position
I suggest with immediate effect, that all air radiotelephony south of Cairo and north of Cape Town should be made first in Swahili, then in French and then for absolute compliance, in English
I suggest with immediate effect, that all air radiotelephony south of Cairo and north of Cape Town should be made first in Swahili, then in French and then for absolute compliance, in English
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Is this significant?
Having read the above posts I decided to check this out by simple means. Try Wikipedia and enter " Air Traffic Controller " Second paragraph confirms my understanding on this topic.
JSP
Having read the above posts I decided to check this out by simple means. Try Wikipedia and enter " Air Traffic Controller " Second paragraph confirms my understanding on this topic.
JSP
