SAA back to CDG ?
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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SAA back to CDG ?
Read on another french web forum that SAA could resume fights to CDG from next year. 
( after they ceased the daily light last October , leaving AF with 2 daily 773 )
Any one from SA heared the same good rumor ?
( after they ceased the daily light last October , leaving AF with 2 daily 773 )Any one from SA heared the same good rumor ?
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According to wikipedia, Air France is going to start operating into FACT from September 2008.
Cape Town is really starting to attract the international airlines.
Interesting
Cape Town is really starting to attract the international airlines.
Interesting
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No connection at CDG ? well I think Paris is already a nice destination and you can find air/train connections.( French Railways have already many agreements with airlines ).
In addition many StarAlliance airlines fly there.
I dont explain myself why SAA flies to FRA & MUC. it seems, for me, to be double utility.
In addition many StarAlliance airlines fly there.
I dont explain myself why SAA flies to FRA & MUC. it seems, for me, to be double utility.
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I dont explain myself why SAA flies to FRA & MUC. it seems, for me, to be double util
SAA only for some time to MUC, then they have agreed to give it to the Germans(LH) 
"Jawohl!"
Dont no wat se next ordert assignment will be foa se railroaders from se sueden jaa!
"Jawohl!"Dont no wat se next ordert assignment will be foa se railroaders from se sueden jaa!
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Overheard that the route boffins at SAA reckon that the only money making routes are Sao Paulo, London and Perth. Maybe there is a little flame in the smoke about Lufthansa. Emirates etc. taking over the international routes!!
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Here is the money making potential of the routes (and reasons):
GRU (very profitable): high laods, okay yields, no competition, good freight, A342
IAD (decent): very high loads, high yields, poor freight on return (weight restrictions), A346
JFK (decent): high loads and yields, good freight, very high yields on the JFK-DKR sector, A343
PER (very profitable): high loads, high yields, good freight, A342
HKG (decent): okay loads and yields, lots of connections from GRU, great freight, A343
BOM (borderline): dissapointing loads and yields, dissapointing freight, A342 although they want A343 to increase yield
FRA (borderline): high loads but yield killed by competition, great freight, A346, daytime from CPT increases utilization
MUC (decent): good loads, okay yields and cargo, A342, daytime flight in one direction!
LHR (borderline): high loads but yield killed (no slaughtered by competition), great freight, mix of A346, A343, A342
Interesting observation: the most profitable routes are flown by the A342! Even though operating costs are high the cost of ownership is very low and the utilization is very, very high! The A346 and A343 routes are killed by the low utilization of the aircraft! Seabury have recomended to SA that they play with the schedule to increase utilization, hence PER moving to A346 in the summer!
GRU (very profitable): high laods, okay yields, no competition, good freight, A342
IAD (decent): very high loads, high yields, poor freight on return (weight restrictions), A346
JFK (decent): high loads and yields, good freight, very high yields on the JFK-DKR sector, A343
PER (very profitable): high loads, high yields, good freight, A342
HKG (decent): okay loads and yields, lots of connections from GRU, great freight, A343
BOM (borderline): dissapointing loads and yields, dissapointing freight, A342 although they want A343 to increase yield
FRA (borderline): high loads but yield killed by competition, great freight, A346, daytime from CPT increases utilization
MUC (decent): good loads, okay yields and cargo, A342, daytime flight in one direction!
LHR (borderline): high loads but yield killed (no slaughtered by competition), great freight, mix of A346, A343, A342
Interesting observation: the most profitable routes are flown by the A342! Even though operating costs are high the cost of ownership is very low and the utilization is very, very high! The A346 and A343 routes are killed by the low utilization of the aircraft! Seabury have recomended to SA that they play with the schedule to increase utilization, hence PER moving to A346 in the summer!
Too mean to buy a long personal title
If SA's yields are low on this route, is this because they sell too much via consolidators at too low a price? I get special offers for SA flights at silly prices from one UK-based travel company whose mailing list I'm on, but I can never find anything like that for travel on BA or VS.
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This is not scientific since there are many factors coming into play, but here is an example for two low season return fares between JNB-LHR and JNB-PER, exluding all taxes and levies:
JNB-PER: 5168 mi (21:05 total flying time)
JNB-LHR: 5645 mi (22:50 total flying time)
Q class (reasonably discounted):
JNB-PER: ZAR 8140 (1.32 per mi)
JNB-LHR: ZAR 6960 (1.23 per mi)
K class (almost full fare economy):
JNB-PER: ZAR 11070 (2.14 per mi)
JNB-LHR: ZAR: 10360 (1.83 per mi)
Generally PER yields higher and when one considers that the loads are higher it looks even better! The best way to look at it is ARP measures. I have seen them for various routes and PER is great and LHR is ****!
JNB-PER: 5168 mi (21:05 total flying time)
JNB-LHR: 5645 mi (22:50 total flying time)
Q class (reasonably discounted):
JNB-PER: ZAR 8140 (1.32 per mi)
JNB-LHR: ZAR 6960 (1.23 per mi)
K class (almost full fare economy):
JNB-PER: ZAR 11070 (2.14 per mi)
JNB-LHR: ZAR: 10360 (1.83 per mi)
Generally PER yields higher and when one considers that the loads are higher it looks even better! The best way to look at it is ARP measures. I have seen them for various routes and PER is great and LHR is ****!
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Equally unscientific, but this is a quick and dirty search for the lowest fares now available on flights ex-LHR on 22 November returning 29 November, all inclusive (as reported by ITA Software, priced for sale in JNB and therefore in ZAR):-
LHR-JNB: ZAR 12912 (BD, H class, total return scheduled time 23:10)
LHR-JNB: ZAR 13318 (SA, Q class, for comparison)
LHR-MIA: ZAR 7701 (AA, V class, total return scheduled time 19:00)
LHR-LAX: ZAR 6559 (BA, Q class, total return scheduled time 21:10)
LHR-HKG: ZAR 7346 (BA, Q class, total return scheduled time 24:00)
I know that the real yield figures reside inside the respective airlines, and depend on many different factors. So I'm not doubting the correctness of what you say. But this is why (at least from a UK perspective) it surprised me to read that LON-JNB is a low-yield route. And I know my perception is shared by many others.
Might SA's yield, compared to those achieved by other airlines, be affected by the proportion of tickets sold ex-JNB and ex-LON by the respective airlines?
LHR-JNB: ZAR 12912 (BD, H class, total return scheduled time 23:10)
LHR-JNB: ZAR 13318 (SA, Q class, for comparison)
LHR-MIA: ZAR 7701 (AA, V class, total return scheduled time 19:00)
LHR-LAX: ZAR 6559 (BA, Q class, total return scheduled time 21:10)
LHR-HKG: ZAR 7346 (BA, Q class, total return scheduled time 24:00)
I know that the real yield figures reside inside the respective airlines, and depend on many different factors. So I'm not doubting the correctness of what you say. But this is why (at least from a UK perspective) it surprised me to read that LON-JNB is a low-yield route. And I know my perception is shared by many others.
Might SA's yield, compared to those achieved by other airlines, be affected by the proportion of tickets sold ex-JNB and ex-LON by the respective airlines?
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Indeed the starting point does influence the fare basis (not the class however). However, Q class means something totally different in different airlines, it is the deepest discounted ticket for BA but not SA. In order to make a fair comparison one needs to look at the same fare class for the same airline for the same starting point (i.e. LHR or LGW or JNB - not LON however) in the same season. Including or excluding taxes will depend on your own preferences.
By the way, November is shoulder season hence your Q class fare on SA being much higher than mine. Also your includes all taxes and levies while my data was excluding all!
What you do see in your data is that LAX is a much higher yielding route than HKG for BA since LHR-HKG is much longer than LHR-LAX even though the laters price is the price is only higher by a marginal amount! (For the same fare class).
By the way, November is shoulder season hence your Q class fare on SA being much higher than mine. Also your includes all taxes and levies while my data was excluding all!
What you do see in your data is that LAX is a much higher yielding route than HKG for BA since LHR-HKG is much longer than LHR-LAX even though the laters price is the price is only higher by a marginal amount! (For the same fare class).
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Hence putting in all the detail so that anyone can reproduce the results.
Whatever booking class it happens to be in, these were the lowest fares available on any carrier for those dates.
The pattern is similar at other times. For example, lowest fares on 3/10 March:-
LHR-JNB: £681.50 (BD, H class)
LHR-JNB: £706.50 (SA, Q class)
LHR-JNB: £794.10 (BA, V class)
LHR-MIA: £454.50 (AA, V class)
LHR-LAX: £358.50 (BA, O class)
LHR-HKG: £596.40 (NZ, T class)
LHR-HKG: £621.40 (BA, V class)
So for ex-London bookings, the route to South Africa definitely looks more expensive than other routes, although SA is often the cheapest airline of the bunch.
Whatever booking class it happens to be in, these were the lowest fares available on any carrier for those dates.
The pattern is similar at other times. For example, lowest fares on 3/10 March:-
LHR-JNB: £681.50 (BD, H class)
LHR-JNB: £706.50 (SA, Q class)
LHR-JNB: £794.10 (BA, V class)
LHR-MIA: £454.50 (AA, V class)
LHR-LAX: £358.50 (BA, O class)
LHR-HKG: £596.40 (NZ, T class)
LHR-HKG: £621.40 (BA, V class)
So for ex-London bookings, the route to South Africa definitely looks more expensive than other routes, although SA is often the cheapest airline of the bunch.
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I can confirm that LHR-JNB is at least as expensive as LHR-NRT on any airline, and they are all close on cost (i.e. the airlines doing LHR-JNB are all fairly close in ticket price). They are more expensive than other interconti sectors (LHR-LAX, LHR-SIN).
I dread my annual visit to SA because of the excessive cost (and it doesn't help that I am forced to go in July when it is high season for pax from Europe).
S.
I dread my annual visit to SA because of the excessive cost (and it doesn't help that I am forced to go in July when it is high season for pax from Europe).
S.
Prof. Airport Engineer
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The yield from business class is a very important determinant in overall route yield. JNB-PER must be one of the few airline routes in the world where business class fills up before economy, AND you have to book a couple months ahead to get a seat in business class.
The reason I say “few airline routes” is because most other airlines would have reacted long ago to the opportunity of passengers desperately shoving large amounts of money at them to buy expensive tickets.
So the reason why SAA needs the A346 on JNB-PER is the greater number of business seats compared to the A342 (I can’t give the exact number because there is no international access to the SAA website at present – typical daytime scenario for most South African websites).
And the reason why business class is so full is the Australian mining fly-in fly-out mentality. It is normal to go to work (at the mine) by jet, and hundreds if not thousands do it every day from Perth. If the mine is in Tanzania or South Africa or somewhere, then it just takes a bit longer. And on long flights, they fly business class.
The reason I say “few airline routes” is because most other airlines would have reacted long ago to the opportunity of passengers desperately shoving large amounts of money at them to buy expensive tickets.
So the reason why SAA needs the A346 on JNB-PER is the greater number of business seats compared to the A342 (I can’t give the exact number because there is no international access to the SAA website at present – typical daytime scenario for most South African websites).
And the reason why business class is so full is the Australian mining fly-in fly-out mentality. It is normal to go to work (at the mine) by jet, and hundreds if not thousands do it every day from Perth. If the mine is in Tanzania or South Africa or somewhere, then it just takes a bit longer. And on long flights, they fly business class.
