SAA’s fleet expand
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
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I am pretty familiar with ETOPS procedures so no need to do specific research. All aircraft are built (at least newer aircraft) with some out of the box ETOPS ability but not certification. ETOPS classifications are 60, 90, 120, 138 and 180 minute rules and yes they have nothing to do with over water but rather airports within the time limitation that could handle an emergency situation for that aircraft type. All aircraft and operators by definition have a default 60 minutes ETOPS. SA have on 90 minute ETOPS their 319s and 120 minutes on the 738s. You are correct about the liferafts.
ETOPS has four components: 1) engine health monitoring, 2) predeparture service check, 3) system maintenance practices and 4) event-orientated reliability programmes. In order to move from the default to a higher certification you need to satisfy all four components. One can satisfy 2, 3 and 4 generically (i.e. independent of aircraft or engine type) but one cannot satisfy point 1 without an operations history. You are required to operate the engine type successfully to gain certification and this is very difficult to do quickly with a small number of aircraft. It took SQ 6 months to get 180 ETOPS on the 77W and this only occured so quickly because they had a number of birds and a history with the 777 and engine types (by the way the 777 default is 120 mins). With 3 birds and an unknown engine and aircraft type it should take SA.
Whatever the CAA issues are with ETOPS SA will have to satisfy FAA requirements as well.
ETOPS has four components: 1) engine health monitoring, 2) predeparture service check, 3) system maintenance practices and 4) event-orientated reliability programmes. In order to move from the default to a higher certification you need to satisfy all four components. One can satisfy 2, 3 and 4 generically (i.e. independent of aircraft or engine type) but one cannot satisfy point 1 without an operations history. You are required to operate the engine type successfully to gain certification and this is very difficult to do quickly with a small number of aircraft. It took SQ 6 months to get 180 ETOPS on the 77W and this only occured so quickly because they had a number of birds and a history with the 777 and engine types (by the way the 777 default is 120 mins). With 3 birds and an unknown engine and aircraft type it should take SA.
Whatever the CAA issues are with ETOPS SA will have to satisfy FAA requirements as well.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Heard from a family member working for V.I.P. Payroll that Pretoria was without power ( again ) on Thursday, pay day. Couple of company's could not release their payrolls.
Some of the biggest international contactors working on the Soccer WC missed pay day from V.I.P. Payroll as well. 6 Top directors on the 2010 SWC board already jumped ship. FIFA not happy.
No World Cup..... no extra aircraft required.
Some of the biggest international contactors working on the Soccer WC missed pay day from V.I.P. Payroll as well. 6 Top directors on the 2010 SWC board already jumped ship. FIFA not happy.
No World Cup..... no extra aircraft required.
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I agree that ETOPS is the least of their worries but enough of an issue to avoid the 777 for only 3 birds! 330 would be less of an issue since SA have an operational history of the 340 which will help get ETOPS 180 very quickly (possibly immediate).
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1) Liferafts! But this is not an ETOPS issue but an overwater ETOPS issue!
2) Ability to evacuate the aircraft in good time without using overwing exits.
3) And 4 conditions mentioned earlier!
2) Ability to evacuate the aircraft in good time without using overwing exits.
3) And 4 conditions mentioned earlier!
Join Date: Aug 2007
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In SA (and SAA) today, if big money is mentioned (like that paid for new aircraft), its all about who's palm is being greased.
It has nothing to do with routes, ETOPS, pax numbers or yield figures.
ONLY, who's palm is being greased.
The taxpayer is buying so its not important where the money is coming from, ONLY what percentage is filtered to the back pocket.
It's not about aircraft, you can call it Gautrain, Koega harbour, La Merci airport, new WC stadium, new SANDF arms, new power stations, etsc. etc.
The aircraft is just a way to the means.
It has nothing to do with routes, ETOPS, pax numbers or yield figures.
ONLY, who's palm is being greased.
The taxpayer is buying so its not important where the money is coming from, ONLY what percentage is filtered to the back pocket.
It's not about aircraft, you can call it Gautrain, Koega harbour, La Merci airport, new WC stadium, new SANDF arms, new power stations, etsc. etc.
The aircraft is just a way to the means.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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The widebodies (77W) are for LHR - JNB service. Overwater ETOPS is not required. 120min is sufficient for over Africa operations. Sunair had some 77W slots reservered, I wonder if its not these. The narrow bodies are to replace frames that have gone to Mango.
EDIT : PS-> SAA did have 7 x 772s on order years ago. Cancelled them when Coleman left... (ZS-SCA to ZS - SCG)
EDIT : PS-> SAA did have 7 x 772s on order years ago. Cancelled them when Coleman left... (ZS-SCA to ZS - SCG)
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Someone is a little confused here: the original talk was for short term leases for 3 long haul aircraft - not new builds! Any 77W would have to be new builds and would take years to arrive - there are currently 362 unfilled orders for 777 models, and Sunair hold no delivery slots! Conside3ring they only delivered 75 aircraft last year do the math to see how long the wait is! None of the leasing companies have any uncommitted deliveries, they last ILFC slots have already been allocated. Singapore has just ordered some more A330 since the order list for 777 is too long. If Singapore can't get earlier slots then I don't see how SAA can! I can understand SAA taking quite a few 77W in the long term but 3 frames in the short term would be impossible! However, they could get 772 or 773 A models (non-ER) but they would struggle to operate JNB-LHR (range is just too short given hot and high conditions in JNB). And if they only wanted the aircraft for JNB-LHR then why 3 frames when you only need 2?
SAA did have an order for 4 772 and an option for 3 more, but they were canceled and the deposits used as part payment for 2x 744 SAA got in 1998 (SBK and SBS).
SAA doesn't need to replace the frames that went to Mango since the 738 was underutilized in the SAA fleet which is why they were often leased out for the European summer charter season. They want the frames for some expansion within Africa and possibly to move more frames to Mango.
SAA did have an order for 4 772 and an option for 3 more, but they were canceled and the deposits used as part payment for 2x 744 SAA got in 1998 (SBK and SBS).
SAA doesn't need to replace the frames that went to Mango since the 738 was underutilized in the SAA fleet which is why they were often leased out for the European summer charter season. They want the frames for some expansion within Africa and possibly to move more frames to Mango.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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At Khaya's feed back on Monday he reportedly said that first choice is A330s and B738s. I must agree that he could struggle to source those but lets wait and see.
As for ETOPS SAA needs those big twins to operate to Lagos, Accra, Luanda etc. If what evanb says is true (and I have no knowledge to challenge or doubt him) then SAA will be able to do this no proble. 60 minutes ETOPS is fine for those sectors and would enable them to build up the hours required.
A far greater benefit of these A330s or B777s would be that they release the longer range quads from this regional and domestic flying and allow them to do international flights. Plus the better economies of operating a twin on 5 and 6 hour sectors.
Khaya is also reported to have said that the reason for extra widebodies is to add on Buenos Aires to SAA's route structure and then increase frequencies to Munich and other non-daily destinations.
As for ETOPS SAA needs those big twins to operate to Lagos, Accra, Luanda etc. If what evanb says is true (and I have no knowledge to challenge or doubt him) then SAA will be able to do this no proble. 60 minutes ETOPS is fine for those sectors and would enable them to build up the hours required.
A far greater benefit of these A330s or B777s would be that they release the longer range quads from this regional and domestic flying and allow them to do international flights. Plus the better economies of operating a twin on 5 and 6 hour sectors.
Khaya is also reported to have said that the reason for extra widebodies is to add on Buenos Aires to SAA's route structure and then increase frequencies to Munich and other non-daily destinations.
Last edited by FMGEC; 12th Apr 2008 at 16:55. Reason: typo
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The A330 and B738 sounds about the most viable option as this will fit the current SAA Technical maintenance capabilities if you take into account this is a short term target. Introduction of a "new" a/c type (B772 or B773) into the maintenance schedule will cause havoc as they are taking strain under an endless stream of resignations of their best maintenance staff.
E
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On the subject of ETOPS - does Nationwide hold ETOPS approval for the 767? I would suspect that on JNB - LHR the number of suitable airports in Central / Northern Africa would make ETOPS approval neccesary for any sensible routing. If so - how did they get their approval with only one aircraft?
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Nationwide has ETOPS 120 approval on its 767 since this is the default. ETOPS 120 gives one almost a clear route on JNB-LGW! What SAA would really need in the long run if it had a fleet of twins was ETOPS 180 which would make North America and parts of South America (and maybe even Australia not on a great circle route) viable on twins!
