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Nationwide loses a donkey @ FACT

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Old 7th Nov 2007, 18:08
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Mile High

Heard that Van wants to join the Nationwide mile high club. Not even 10 feet of the ground and you're fed.
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 18:35
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Post Top Job

Just spoken to the Senior Cabin Controller who was operating that flight. She happens to be family so this info comes first-hand . Some nasty vibrations/sounds felt/heard throughout the cabin shortly after Vr. She mentioned it was unlike anything she had ever experienced before. And some experience that is, 27 years with SAA and 6 odd years at N Wide and still at it!!!

By the time she reported to Trevor A (very capable man, also flew with him on the Metro in the early 90s) she shared that the engine simply no longer existed. Fuel was seen spewing from below the RH wing.

Pax were superb throughout the ordeal and crew remained as calm as possible, considering the severity of the situation.

I cannot confirm or deny that the thrust reverser deployed fully, that info will be released in time.

To Trevor, Dan (2nd Flight only), Mari and Crew, TOP JOB!!!

To Vernon, give these Crews the accolade they rightly deserve!!!
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 19:13
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To the crew

Well done.
When landings equal the amount of take-off's, you're doing just fine, but if you land back with less engines than the take-off, you're doing bloody well ( well!)
I trust a few hydraulic sandwiches are going down just well in Cape Town this evening.
What are the chances of this B737 working again?
I trust this crew has passed their OPC for the next 10 years straight!
That raw fuel flow without fire is amazing. Someone was watching over this crew and their passengers.

Last edited by sidestick driver; 7th Nov 2007 at 19:14. Reason: Sentence
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 19:36
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What right has ACSA got to take pictures/photographs away from anyone. If that was me I would have resisted this. They are NOT a police force or anything like that. They must concern themeselves with the management of the airport and passenger safety and comfort...for which they get a user fee!

As a matter of fact DIE BURGER was there and got good pictures which will be published tomorrow. I wonder what ACSA will say about that!
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 19:46
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ACSA

Mad Dog, I agree. ACSA should have spent more time and effort in assisting the Crews and pax after bringing the 737 to a standstill, instead of worrying about stupid pics! Trevor, please post the piccies so we can see the remains (what remains!) of #2.. PS: I bet ACSA has clear memories of rwy "blockage" after the A346 recently...
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 19:57
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Bomber Man...you should DEMAND your photographs back from ACSA...they have NO RIGHT to confiscate photographs...we are not living in North Korea or Burma and we should resist every thing which allows this country to slip in that direction.

I really wonder what right ACSA has to harrass photographers, and what they try and achieve by suppressing images. As I said in a previous post, the newspaper DIE BURGER was there and got good pictures which will be published in tomorrow morning's edition. ACSA seems to not have a problem with that, or more accurately the seasoned journalist has tricks up his sleeves to deal with problems like this and outwit ACSA and its cycophants who should worry about airside safety rather than what pictures are taken.
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 20:56
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Watching something like this happening is seeing but not believing...even after 30+ years in the job, it still rattles you. A/C was just airborne..50-100ft??

I must applaud the crew They kept the plane flying under these trying and difficult conditions with drizzle rain and a cloud base of 900ft running IMC just after the incident while trying to keep the A/C flying. No time to dump fuel as it was spilling on its own. They made it back by the grace of God. It had to land...that is why the runway was cleared of rubble in such a short time(not 10 mins but 20 mins)

Engine, cowling and other parts still lying next to the runway. Have cameras ready early tomorrow morning:!!

Once again....brilliant...brilliant...brilliant flying by the pilots TA and DP

Oh.. AND...don't forget...the Approach controller having to handle this emergency and all the other 7 or 8 on frequency with a sudden runway closure and A/C all over the sky!!! Well done PR
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Old 7th Nov 2007, 22:26
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 00:34
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Well done Trev. 10 years on type = experience, the thing that bean counters do not understand.
Now lets hope they pay you in accordance with your experience.
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 01:16
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Once again....brilliant...brilliant...brilliant flying by the pilots TA and DP
Could somebody describe the actual level of workload with a donk gone missing.

I assume that the plane yaws and rolls a little less than with a typical engine out and the gages go blank or something. But what is it really like compared to a sim event with an engine out at this condition?

If we had less than brilliant pilots would you crash?
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 02:07
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Lomapaseo - I think the diff between this and a sim is the cold reality - ie nobody dies in a sim! I for one would certainly be acting and thinking differently than in a sim due to fear and all the psychological/physiological effects it has - none of which you experience in a sim.
( Being scared of the instructor in the sim is not the same!!!)
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 02:27
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Originally Posted by Beta Light
Well done Trev. 10 years on type = experience, the thing that bean counters do not understand.
Now lets hope they pay you in accordance with your experience.
Again, whilst the internal problems of NTW are just that (internal), for these guys sake, they are most definately NOT paid for their experience. Apart from the known low salary at NTW, their pay scales stop at five years seniority, and the HR manager is on record as saying that they feel you should move on after that time. Nice. As you say, typical beancounter.
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 04:28
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Thumbs up

Massive kudo's to the pilots and crew for getting that aircraft back on the ground safely.

On first hearing the report on Highveld 94.7 at 16:30 yesterday afternoon, I thought the newsreader had misread the report when she said the engine had "fallen out" .. I assumed she meant the aircraft had LOST an engine, but when they confirmed that it really had fallen out, I was stunned and amazed. Go figure.

Vernon sort out your aircraft dude!!!! These are our mates that put their lives on the line for you!
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 05:06
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Well done boys! And the cabin crew as well, exellent job!

To Vernon. You save money on maintainance, this is what happens. That engin didn't break its mounts, the whole strut came out = corrosion.........

This resulted in the firewall and all the shutoff valves being lost as well. Losing hidrailics and fuel in the process.

This crew handled not only a ''lost'' engine, huge fuel imballance and hidraulic failure, but did it in IMC.

Man, that's worth a medal!
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 05:13
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Well done to all involved. Good designed aircraft too, not forgetting others in the past where an engine has come away and the aircraft C of G change to out of operating limits has resulted in the loss of the hull.
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 05:15
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Also flew the entire time with gear extended due to hydraulic failure after firewall shut offs went south with the pylon. Aircraft unable to be cleaned up after take off according to another site. Far trickier than an engine falling off the bottom of the pylon and leaving working shut offs and thus operational hydraulic systems.
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 05:49
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Crew were the hero's, boeing were the winners and vernon and the pax were the lucky ones. that's what you get when you pick up planes for spare parts and make them fly. i hope vernon buys the crew beers for the rest of their lives and maybe a new pair of undies.

this can't be good for NTW with the CAA watching over them so closely, and what is of the aircraft now. is it spare parts again or can it be made to fly. bet boeing are loving this one. when i heard the story, the hairs on my neck stood up because it was only yesterday afternoon that i was watching a programme on discovery about a dc 10 with a similar incident, but in that case, 270 odd peaople weren't so lucky.

so what's it going to take vernon, a wake up call like this, because they don't come closer than this, or an actual hull loss with loss of life???

maybe it's time for vern to get out of the game, swallow his pride and let someone take over his 'good' airline and turn it into a 'great' one!!!

i guess the dilemma lies with the pax now, do we still fly on NTW because they have brilliant pilots capable of flying the machine when it's falling apart, or do we stop flying NTW because of the old crap planes??!! time will tell.

lets get some more photos up here. and i hope some get stuck up on the walls at NTW, beancounters need to see stuff like this. we'll see how soon it will be before they fly on one of their own planes again!!!

but to the crew, well done and if vernon and NTW don't recongise your excellence, at least the your fellow airman do for whatever that may be worth.
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 05:51
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......another thing, aynone know of any other incidents where this has happened to a fluff before??
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 06:06
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......another thing, aynone know of any other incidents where this has happened to a fluff before??
Yes, from R&N on this forum: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...67&postcount=8

I'll steal unashamedly from IGh.
Delta B737-200 7Jan92 DFW. Engine separation on takeoff. After T/O at 200' breakaway safety bolts called "Cone Pins" sheared for right engine. Engine bounced on grass on right side of runway.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...11X13985&key=1
... FTW92IA055 ....
... DELTA AIR LINES ...
... Tuesday, January 07, 1992 in DFW ...
... BOEING 737-232 ... N322DL ...

THE RIGHT ENGINE SEPARATED ... CLIMBING THROUGH 200 FEET AFTER TAKEOFF. ... UNEVENTFUL LANDING ...

ENGINE SEPARATION WAS THE RESULT OF THE FAILURE OF THE AFT CONE BOLT AND THE ENGINE SECONDARY SUPPORT ASSEMBLY. THE AFT CONE BOLT FAILED AS RESULT OF A PREEXISTING FATIGUE CRACK, WHILE THE ENGINE SECONDARY SUPPORT ASSEMBLY FAILED AS RESULT OF THE DYNAMIC LOADS THAT EXCEEDED THE DESIGNED CAPACITY OF THE MOUNTING BOLTS.

THE TWO FORWARD CONE BOLTS FAILED IN OVERLOAD AS THE ENGINE SWUNG FORWARD DURING THE SEPARATION SEQUENCE.

METALLURGICAL TESTING REVEALED THAT THE FATIGUE OF THE AFT CONE BOLT WAS A RESULT OF LUBRICANT INADVERTENTLY INTRODUCED INTO THE CONICAL SURFACE OF THE CONE BOLT.

...Board determines the probable cause ...
THE FAILURE OF THE AFT CONE BOLT AS RESULT OF PREEXISTING FATIGUE CRACKING DUE TO IMPROPER MAINTENANCE, AND THE FAILURE OF THE SECONDARY SUPPORT STRUCTURE AS A RESULT OF LOADS THAT EXCEEDED THE CAPACITY OF THE ATTACHING HARDWARE AND THE CRUSHABLE HONEYCOMB CORE.

= = = // = = =

Piedmont Airlines B737-200, 20Jan89, right engine separated from aircraft after T/O at Chicago. Newly designed secondary support structure had not yet been installed.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X27558&key=1
... CHI89MA046 ....
... PIEDMONT AIRLINES
... Friday, January 20, 1989 in CHICAGO, IL ...
... BOEING 737-201 ... N242US ...

AN IN-FLIGHT TEARAWAY OF THE RIGHT ENGINE (FROM THE RIGHT WING) OCCURRED AS THE AIRPLANE LIFTED OFF FROM THE RUNWAY. ... CONTINUED THE TAKEOFF ... RETURNED ...

AN EXAM OF ITS WING & SEPARATED ENGINE REVEALED THE AFT CONE (ENG MOUNTING) BOLT HAD FAILED FROM FATIGUE, THEN THE TWO FORWARD CONE BOLTS FAILED FROM DUCTILE OVERSTRESS.

A RAISED MECHANICAL DEFORMATIVE WAS FOUND ON THE CONICAL SURFACE OF THE AFT BOLT. THE DEFORMITY WAS INDICATIVE OF DAMAGE PRODUCED PRIOR TO OR DURING ASSEMBLY OF THE CONE BOLT IN THE ISOLATION MOUNT. A MATCHING CAVITY WAS NOTED ON THE ISOLATION MOUNT. THERE WAS EVIDENCE THAT THE MECHANICAL IRREGULARITY RESULTED IN A NONUNIFORM FIT WHICH ALLOWED THE TORQUED FITTING TO LOOSEN DURING CYCLIC LOADING.

AD 88-01-07 REQUIRED THAT ULTRASONIC INSPECTION OF THE CONE BOLTS BE PERFORMED AT INTERVALS NOT TO EXCEED 600 CYCLES. AN ULTRASONIC INSPECTION OF THE BOLTS HAD BEEN ACCOMPLISHED ABOUT 330 CYCLES BEFORE THE ENGINE SEPARATED.

... Board determines the probable cause ...
PREVIOUS DAMAGE TO THE AFT CONE (ENGINE MOUNTING) BOLT, WHICH RESULTED IN MISMATCHED SURFACES BETWEEN THE BOLT AND ISOLATION MOUNT, LOSS OF TORQUE DURING CYCLIC LOADING OF THE MOUNTING BOLT, AND SUBSEQUENT FATIGUE FAILURE OF THE BOLT.

= = = // = = =

US Air B737-200 PHL 5Dec87 #2 engine separated shortly after takeoff. Cracks caused by metal fatigue in one of three bolts; after rear bolt failed the two forward bolts and support cable failed in overload. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X32769&key=1
... NYC88FA050 ....
... USAIR
... Saturday, December 05, 1987 ... DEPTFORD, NJ ...
... BOEING 737-2B7 ... N319AU ...

DRG TKOF, AS USAIR FLT 224 WAS CLBG THRU 4000', THE ACFT YAWED/ROLLED RGT. SIMULTANEOUSLY, THE CREW NOTICED THE #2 THROTTLE SLAM/LOCK TO THE IDLE PSN & A CONTINUOUS AIRFRAME BUFFET BEGAN.

SOON THEREAFTER, THE #2 ENG SEPD FM THE ACFT & THE BUFFET STOPPED.

THE ENG IMPACTED IN AN OPEN FLD, 6 MI FM THE ARPT.

JUST BFR IT SEPD, A PAX SAW THE AFT END OF THE #2 ENG MOMENTARILY DROOP ABOUT 30 DEG.

AFTER ENG SEPN, THE 'B' HYD SYS LOST PRES & THE TE FLAPS WOULD ONLY EXTD 10 DEG.

THE ACFT WAS LNDD SAFELY AFTER AN EMERG GEAR EXTN & DIFFERENTIAL BRAKING WAS USED FOR STEERING.

AN EXAM REVEALED THE AFT MOUNT CONE BOLT FOR THE #2 ENG HAD FAILED FM FATIGUE THRU THE THREAD RELIEF UNDERCUT RADIUS. FATIGUE CRACKS HAD INITIATED ON DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE RADIUS. SUBSEQUENTLY, THE FWD MOUNT CONE BOLTS & SECONDARY SUPPORT CABLE FAILED FROM OVERLOAD.

... Board determines the probable cause ...
ENGINE INSTALLATION, MOUNTING BOLT ..FATIGUE

= = = // = = =

"Southwest 223" / 3Jan86 B737-2H4, after T/O from Love Field (Dallas), Rt Engine rear mount Cone Bolt sheared, mount failed and restraining cable broke; leaving the engine attached by only the two fwd mount bolts; returned safely. [AWST 124:31 Ja 13'86, photo.]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...10X00187&key=1
... FTW86MA030
... SOUTHWEST ...
... January 03, 1986 in DALLAS, TX
... BOEING 737-2H4 ... N86SW ...

THIS INCIDENT OCCURRED WHEN THE NO. 2 ENGINE EXPERIENCED AN AFT ENGINE MOUNT CONE BOLT FAILURE AND THE SUBSEQUENT FAILURE OF THE SECONDARY SUPPORT LINK (STAINLESS STEEL CABLE).

THE FAILURE OF BOTH AFT ENGINE SUPPORT ASSEMBLIES DURING THE TAKEOFF ROLL ALLOWED THE AFT SECTION OF THE ENG TO HANG DOWN TO WITHIN 4' [sic, transcription err] OF THE GROUND. AS A RESULT, THE NO.2 THRUST REVERSER ACTUATOR ASSEMBLY DRUG THE RUNWAY ON ROTATION.
... RETURNED ... LANDED...

METALLURGICAL EXAMINATION OF THE CONE BOLT REVEALED THAT IT FAILED AS A RESULT OF FATIGUE, MOST PROBABLY DUE TO IMPROPER INSTALLATION OF THE BOLT, SPECIFICALLY, THAT IT WAS UNDER TORQUED WHEN THE OPERATOR RE-INSTALLED THE ENG.

THE SAFETY CABLE FAILED AS A RESULT OF OVERSTRESS, PROBABLY INDUCED WHEN THE ACFT ENCOUNTERED A ROUGH STRETCH OF RUNWAY DURING THE TAKEOFF ROLL.

... Board determines the probable cause ...
ENGINE INSTALLATION, SUSPENSION MOUNTS .. FAILURE, PARTIAL
... FATIGUE ... SEPARATION ... OVERLOAD ... UNDERTORQUED
MAINTENANCE, INSTALLATION .. IMPROPER ...

Contributing Factors ... RUNWAY / LANDING AREA CONDITION ... ROUGH /UNEVEN
i was watching a programme on discovery about a dc 10 with a similar incident, but in that case, 270 odd peaople weren't so lucky.
In that case the engine took out the LE devices and hydraulics. These guys were fortunate, but apparently a superbly handled emergency.
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Old 8th Nov 2007, 06:19
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Vernon will probably fire them for damage to his aircraft and delaying the flight into cancelation!
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