Working in Africa
PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,442
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jockflyer,
In spite of Flying_Steph's generalisation about people coming back to the UK as incompetents, I have a good friend who also 'did' Africa because there were no UK jobs once he got his shiny new CPL.
He bought a one way ticket to Jo'burg and worked his way back North towards Europe looking for flying jobs till he found a job in Zim flying Aztecs, Barons, and Islanders. He got this by knocking on doors and asking people what was going.
He had a couple of years there doing some of the most fun and exciting flying he's ever done. (Although in light of the recent developments in Zim, he would not go back there nor recommend it now.) On returning to Europe with a good amount of P1 and multi time, he was not transformed into an arrogant incompetent all of a sudden, but got a job as co-pilot on executive jets. A year or so there and he joined the UKs second largest airline, becoming a Captain within 2 years. Now he's moved across to another UK major flying long haul.
So it can be done, just heed the good advice from those above and go in with your eyes open.
PS and he's a Jock as well
------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
In spite of Flying_Steph's generalisation about people coming back to the UK as incompetents, I have a good friend who also 'did' Africa because there were no UK jobs once he got his shiny new CPL.
He bought a one way ticket to Jo'burg and worked his way back North towards Europe looking for flying jobs till he found a job in Zim flying Aztecs, Barons, and Islanders. He got this by knocking on doors and asking people what was going.
He had a couple of years there doing some of the most fun and exciting flying he's ever done. (Although in light of the recent developments in Zim, he would not go back there nor recommend it now.) On returning to Europe with a good amount of P1 and multi time, he was not transformed into an arrogant incompetent all of a sudden, but got a job as co-pilot on executive jets. A year or so there and he joined the UKs second largest airline, becoming a Captain within 2 years. Now he's moved across to another UK major flying long haul.
So it can be done, just heed the good advice from those above and go in with your eyes open.
PS and he's a Jock as well
------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mmmh... 10W, would you explain me what led you to think that I consider all the pilots who have flown in Africa to be arrogant and incompetent ? English is not my mother tongue but I thought I could make myself understood...
Or is it just a very subtle way to treat me as arrogant and incompetent ?
Jockflyer, I'm sure you've learned a lot of things with these posts (thanks to Letzfetz in particular), but I cannot insist enough on the fact that you shouldn't trust anyone down there, especially the guys who are getting close to your aircraft. The people involved in flight ops haven't always been hired for their knowledge of aviation and their skills, but sometimes because they knew the right person. From that point, you can expect ANYTHING unfortunately. I hope you won't meet people like this ramp agent who lied to me concerning the weight of the containers he put in our plane, and even put some extra tons behind my back (I'm sure he didn't fully realize what he was doing, but if we had taken-off at noon instead of midnight he would have killed us all).
Or is it just a very subtle way to treat me as arrogant and incompetent ?
Jockflyer, I'm sure you've learned a lot of things with these posts (thanks to Letzfetz in particular), but I cannot insist enough on the fact that you shouldn't trust anyone down there, especially the guys who are getting close to your aircraft. The people involved in flight ops haven't always been hired for their knowledge of aviation and their skills, but sometimes because they knew the right person. From that point, you can expect ANYTHING unfortunately. I hope you won't meet people like this ramp agent who lied to me concerning the weight of the containers he put in our plane, and even put some extra tons behind my back (I'm sure he didn't fully realize what he was doing, but if we had taken-off at noon instead of midnight he would have killed us all).
PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,442
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Flying_Steph,
Well your quote below sort of did it for me.
If English is not your first language, then you do very well. However the intonation in the statement above is that this has been your experience of 'most' of the guys coming back. Clearly that is a sweeping generalisation and I would be interested to know what proportion of pilots you think do end up that way. If it's only a handful then that was not emphasised and needs to be. If it's a large proportion, then I'd be interested to hear what other peoples perception is.
I know of a couple of others who were associates of my friend who also flew in Africa and now hold down UK airline jobs. I have a small sample admittedly but 100% of them turned out pretty well even if they did fly in Africa.
You are of course right that things are vastly different from Europe and other such nations. It will not be a bed of roses and there will be dangers. Overloading, as you mention, is extremely common. I am sure for anyone who is not diligent, this is a potential killer. But none of the theories or practices involved in weight and balance should be alien to a CPL, and they shouldn't just be forgotten just because the pilot is no longer in Europe.
But for some, Africa and all it's warts provides a little mystique and adventures in their lives. As long as they are competent and worldy wise before they go, then I don't necessarily think that exposure to such conditions should suddenly change them into someone not able to fly safely.
------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
Well your quote below sort of did it for me.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">when you come back here you'll be transformed into one of those arrogant pilots who think that since they survived Africa they can survive anything. These guys come back to Europe looking for a job, and of course they get interviews with the airlines because they have experience but then they totally screw-up their simcheck because they forgot their IFR, the discipline for safety, and even the simplest skills required for a PPL ! These "survivors" even put a 767 on its back during a simulated engine failure...</font>
I know of a couple of others who were associates of my friend who also flew in Africa and now hold down UK airline jobs. I have a small sample admittedly but 100% of them turned out pretty well even if they did fly in Africa.
You are of course right that things are vastly different from Europe and other such nations. It will not be a bed of roses and there will be dangers. Overloading, as you mention, is extremely common. I am sure for anyone who is not diligent, this is a potential killer. But none of the theories or practices involved in weight and balance should be alien to a CPL, and they shouldn't just be forgotten just because the pilot is no longer in Europe.
But for some, Africa and all it's warts provides a little mystique and adventures in their lives. As long as they are competent and worldy wise before they go, then I don't necessarily think that exposure to such conditions should suddenly change them into someone not able to fly safely.
------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ha HA.. hows it buddah...probably some truth in that!!!!
Not like yo though to not get involved in an arguement, getting soft in your old age?
P.s, flying steph, you shouldnt generalize every pilot in africa, everyone in your precious europe not that crash hot either.
Not like yo though to not get involved in an arguement, getting soft in your old age?
P.s, flying steph, you shouldnt generalize every pilot in africa, everyone in your precious europe not that crash hot either.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Wow, things are getting personnal again... Exactly what we needed to make this forum interesting.
Now I want this to be perfectly clear: I'm not the kind of guy who falls into stupid generalizations, and if you think I do then read again what I've written.
Nobody can be as deaf as someone who doesn't want to listen, so I won't come back once again on that subject.
I have absolutely no idea about the proportion of pilots who come back from Africa with the "survivor syndrome" because the "samples" I had to deal with might not be representative... well, I HOPE SO. Anyway, who cares about statistics ? There's no better way to generalize than to do statistics !
But... I do know that 100% of the "survivor"-pilots I flew with come from Africa. Usually very nice and friendly people, and they still have all my respect because they went through VERY rough times down there, but I don't want to FLY with those "survivors" anymore unless they go back to a flight school before and get back on track. Anyway, no matter what they've done or what they still do, they don't deserve to kill themselves stupidly (possibly including me) because their "environment" forced them to
ignore the rules and guidelines they learned.
'Been there, 'done that, 'got blood on my t-shirt... but now I've had enough of that **** .
Finally, 10W, considering a pilot who got a job with an airline as being a good pilot is a clear case of sweeping generalization, and I demand the immediate removal of your post !
Have a nice day, folks
[This message has been edited by Flying_Steph (edited 08 January 2001).]
Now I want this to be perfectly clear: I'm not the kind of guy who falls into stupid generalizations, and if you think I do then read again what I've written.
Nobody can be as deaf as someone who doesn't want to listen, so I won't come back once again on that subject.
I have absolutely no idea about the proportion of pilots who come back from Africa with the "survivor syndrome" because the "samples" I had to deal with might not be representative... well, I HOPE SO. Anyway, who cares about statistics ? There's no better way to generalize than to do statistics !
But... I do know that 100% of the "survivor"-pilots I flew with come from Africa. Usually very nice and friendly people, and they still have all my respect because they went through VERY rough times down there, but I don't want to FLY with those "survivors" anymore unless they go back to a flight school before and get back on track. Anyway, no matter what they've done or what they still do, they don't deserve to kill themselves stupidly (possibly including me) because their "environment" forced them to
ignore the rules and guidelines they learned.
'Been there, 'done that, 'got blood on my t-shirt... but now I've had enough of that **** .
Finally, 10W, considering a pilot who got a job with an airline as being a good pilot is a clear case of sweeping generalization, and I demand the immediate removal of your post !
Have a nice day, folks
[This message has been edited by Flying_Steph (edited 08 January 2001).]
PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,442
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nobody can be as deaf as someone with a dud battery in their hearing aid
I don't believe that I said they were necessarily 'good pilots' because they are with airlines. I said they 'turned out pretty well'. Of course to 'turn out well' can also refer to dress standards. How do you know that I wasn't talking about their uniforms ??
Good luck JockFlyer in any case. The decision is yours !!
------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
I don't believe that I said they were necessarily 'good pilots' because they are with airlines. I said they 'turned out pretty well'. Of course to 'turn out well' can also refer to dress standards. How do you know that I wasn't talking about their uniforms ??
Good luck JockFlyer in any case. The decision is yours !!
------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Howzit hanging..
Just read the last two pages of all the Africa talk......Great stuff although some people still seem to go through life with their heads in their......in the sand. Beeing a born and bread white in africa I think I have a reasonably decent picture of what has and is happening in Africa. To summarize Letzfetz hit it on the head. I would even go as far to say that he painted a rather conservative picture..........
Just read the last two pages of all the Africa talk......Great stuff although some people still seem to go through life with their heads in their......in the sand. Beeing a born and bread white in africa I think I have a reasonably decent picture of what has and is happening in Africa. To summarize Letzfetz hit it on the head. I would even go as far to say that he painted a rather conservative picture..........
Guest
Posts: n/a
Always on the left BadMan ... always on the left ...
Better for the quick draw if you're a right hander ...
But then I'm sure you know that ... being a hunter of the furry things yourself ...
SeeYa
Cheers and Beers
LF
------------------
Let there be cold beers on a hot day !!!
Better for the quick draw if you're a right hander ...
But then I'm sure you know that ... being a hunter of the furry things yourself ...
SeeYa
Cheers and Beers
LF
------------------
Let there be cold beers on a hot day !!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Let's get on with it: Yes, i reccomend to go to Africa and start at the lowest of the lowest there is, and than move your way up.In a few year beeing there(if you last) you'll move up to the left seat.The experience is great.Even now, i still volunteer to fly there, when the rest of my collegues don't want to.
When you're there, stay away from the white hang outs(disco's etc,etc) because it's going to cost too much money.Make friends with the locals, and hang out with them(you'll have the greatest time)
The Africans are very friendly people but, you have to place yourself in their shoes.Wiling and trying to understand them is half the battle won.They are truelly a great bunch of people, really!Enjoy the great company food and beer there!
Btw to the rest of the racists, just to let you know i'm white, and love Africa, my place to retire.
Bakwetu....
When you're there, stay away from the white hang outs(disco's etc,etc) because it's going to cost too much money.Make friends with the locals, and hang out with them(you'll have the greatest time)
The Africans are very friendly people but, you have to place yourself in their shoes.Wiling and trying to understand them is half the battle won.They are truelly a great bunch of people, really!Enjoy the great company food and beer there!
Btw to the rest of the racists, just to let you know i'm white, and love Africa, my place to retire.
Bakwetu....
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jockflyer,
I agree with Kiwi Flyer. I went to Southern Africa in 1995 with the same licence you have and about 600 hours. I spent over 2 years flying for a company based in Maun, Botswana, flying in the bush. It was an unreal experience and of very high safety standards and improving steadily. I still remain in contact with close friends who own some of the charter companies ad my suggestion if you are hungry to fly is go to Maun with enough cash to survive a couple of months and sit on those operators doorsteps (how I and most other pilot's were employed). It is frustrating initially but well worth the hassle and will give you good flying experience quickly. In my case it helped my so much so that I am now flying passenger jets for a fantastic airline based in Europe. You will also make friends there for life, a truly amazing bunch of lads and lasses. The bush in the Okavango is an amazing place of unspoilt beauty.
Good Luck
I agree with Kiwi Flyer. I went to Southern Africa in 1995 with the same licence you have and about 600 hours. I spent over 2 years flying for a company based in Maun, Botswana, flying in the bush. It was an unreal experience and of very high safety standards and improving steadily. I still remain in contact with close friends who own some of the charter companies ad my suggestion if you are hungry to fly is go to Maun with enough cash to survive a couple of months and sit on those operators doorsteps (how I and most other pilot's were employed). It is frustrating initially but well worth the hassle and will give you good flying experience quickly. In my case it helped my so much so that I am now flying passenger jets for a fantastic airline based in Europe. You will also make friends there for life, a truly amazing bunch of lads and lasses. The bush in the Okavango is an amazing place of unspoilt beauty.
Good Luck
Guest
Posts: n/a
Flying_Steph
I can't believe what I have just read from you. I know I'm late on this thread, have been away for a while.
I spent my first 12 years bush flying in Africa and have been with an airline for another 12 years now. I tell you that flying in Africa is one of the best places to get invaluable experience. If you do not believe this look at all the airline CAPTAINS in Cathay, Emirates, Saudi, Virgin, Gulf Air, Singapore, Brunei, British Midland, to name some, who began their flying careers in Africa.
You are full of S*1t Sir!
I can't believe what I have just read from you. I know I'm late on this thread, have been away for a while.
I spent my first 12 years bush flying in Africa and have been with an airline for another 12 years now. I tell you that flying in Africa is one of the best places to get invaluable experience. If you do not believe this look at all the airline CAPTAINS in Cathay, Emirates, Saudi, Virgin, Gulf Air, Singapore, Brunei, British Midland, to name some, who began their flying careers in Africa.
You are full of S*1t Sir!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Kiwi Flyer,
Without giving out names on this site, I flew for Swamp Air Charters before, during and with Darren K. from September 1995 to October 1997, let me know if this coincides with your time there. Now based in France/Switzerland flying an Embraer 145 for Crossair.
Without giving out names on this site, I flew for Swamp Air Charters before, during and with Darren K. from September 1995 to October 1997, let me know if this coincides with your time there. Now based in France/Switzerland flying an Embraer 145 for Crossair.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well... According to my doc, I'm made of water (70%), and the ****ty part represents only a variable and negligible percentage.
Anyway, thanks a lot for that outstanding lesson of tolerance you gave us, HogWash. Our community should be really proud to have a member who brilliantly demonstrated that he can listen carefully to what other people say, respects different opinions, thinks before taking action, and always stays in control of his emotions and aggressiveness.
I bet you're the guy who invented CRM !
Now seriously, of course there are a few places where you can get invaluable experience, and of course some pilots from Africa make their way up to the left seat of a major airline. SO WHAT ? And where the hell do you think I said it was not possible ???
It seems that every time I talk about something that really pissed me off when I was flying in Africa and/or with "African" pilots there's a guy who wasn't even there, but feels insulted or uncomfortable anyway, has an irrepressible urge to talk about himself, and thinks he's got the right to give me a lesson. And for what purpose ? For what ???
That's brilliant !
Anyway, thanks a lot for that outstanding lesson of tolerance you gave us, HogWash. Our community should be really proud to have a member who brilliantly demonstrated that he can listen carefully to what other people say, respects different opinions, thinks before taking action, and always stays in control of his emotions and aggressiveness.
I bet you're the guy who invented CRM !
Now seriously, of course there are a few places where you can get invaluable experience, and of course some pilots from Africa make their way up to the left seat of a major airline. SO WHAT ? And where the hell do you think I said it was not possible ???
It seems that every time I talk about something that really pissed me off when I was flying in Africa and/or with "African" pilots there's a guy who wasn't even there, but feels insulted or uncomfortable anyway, has an irrepressible urge to talk about himself, and thinks he's got the right to give me a lesson. And for what purpose ? For what ???
That's brilliant !
Guest
Posts: n/a
Flying_Steph
10W has already taken you to task over some of what you have posted.
YOU seem to be the intolerent one! And I quote a part of one of your posts " but I don't want to FLY with those "survivors" anymore unless they go back to a flight school before and get back on track."
Why do they need to go back to flight school?
What on earth does CRM have to do with my last post? If you have done a CRM course I do not believe yhat you have understood what you were taught!
The tone of your posts has left me with the impression that you do not think much good comes ouy of Africa, including the "Bush Pilots" from there and that they cannot make it with an airline. My post was intended to illustrate to you that you are wrong!
10W has already taken you to task over some of what you have posted.
YOU seem to be the intolerent one! And I quote a part of one of your posts " but I don't want to FLY with those "survivors" anymore unless they go back to a flight school before and get back on track."
Why do they need to go back to flight school?
What on earth does CRM have to do with my last post? If you have done a CRM course I do not believe yhat you have understood what you were taught!
The tone of your posts has left me with the impression that you do not think much good comes ouy of Africa, including the "Bush Pilots" from there and that they cannot make it with an airline. My post was intended to illustrate to you that you are wrong!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sharky 145
You won't know me. I met Darren and KC, on the ATPL exam course, when they left bots.
I loved hearing their storys about flying out there.
I spoke to KC tonight actually, he's just started his type rating for the Dash 8 with British European.
Darren is flying 145 with Brymon and loving it.
Next time you speak to them, ask them about Jimmy (thats me), not my real name, but KC thought all scotsmen were called that, so the nickname stuck.
I not sure that I'm going to go out to Africa now. I start an MCC course on Wednesday, in the hope that an airline will pick me up soon, but if nothing happens by February, I'll maybe go out there and see whats happening. My brother live in Joburg and will drive me around in his 4x4. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and we'll see what happens.
Thanks for replying.
Cheers
JF
You won't know me. I met Darren and KC, on the ATPL exam course, when they left bots.
I loved hearing their storys about flying out there.
I spoke to KC tonight actually, he's just started his type rating for the Dash 8 with British European.
Darren is flying 145 with Brymon and loving it.
Next time you speak to them, ask them about Jimmy (thats me), not my real name, but KC thought all scotsmen were called that, so the nickname stuck.
I not sure that I'm going to go out to Africa now. I start an MCC course on Wednesday, in the hope that an airline will pick me up soon, but if nothing happens by February, I'll maybe go out there and see whats happening. My brother live in Joburg and will drive me around in his 4x4. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and we'll see what happens.
Thanks for replying.
Cheers
JF
Guest
Posts: n/a
(sigh)
I won't answer your questions for three simple reasons:
1. all the answers can be found in my previous posts, which means...
2. you don't pay attention to what I say, and that's why I ironically raised the CRM issue (ok, it was a bit rough... sorry about that), and finally...
3. it would be a waste of time considering your very selective memory. You made a quote and chose the most controversial part, and totally omitted the other parts where I said that I still have respect for the "survivors" I flew with. I'm not even sure you remember the positive things I said about Africa.
PPRuNe is all about sharing our experience, especially in this case where Jockflyer wants to fly down there and doesn't really know what to expect. I want him to stay away from trouble and I made a few posts about what I've been through.
If you don't like what I've seen and what I had to deal with, well, welcome to the club... The bar is open !
Now if you don't like what I say and the conclusions I draw about my personal experience in Africa and with "African" pilots, nobody forces you to stay here and if you want to relax and even deny the existence of the "dark side" of Africa, I'm sure an hour or two on Disney.com will work out fine.
I won't answer your questions for three simple reasons:
1. all the answers can be found in my previous posts, which means...
2. you don't pay attention to what I say, and that's why I ironically raised the CRM issue (ok, it was a bit rough... sorry about that), and finally...
3. it would be a waste of time considering your very selective memory. You made a quote and chose the most controversial part, and totally omitted the other parts where I said that I still have respect for the "survivors" I flew with. I'm not even sure you remember the positive things I said about Africa.
PPRuNe is all about sharing our experience, especially in this case where Jockflyer wants to fly down there and doesn't really know what to expect. I want him to stay away from trouble and I made a few posts about what I've been through.
If you don't like what I've seen and what I had to deal with, well, welcome to the club... The bar is open !
Now if you don't like what I say and the conclusions I draw about my personal experience in Africa and with "African" pilots, nobody forces you to stay here and if you want to relax and even deny the existence of the "dark side" of Africa, I'm sure an hour or two on Disney.com will work out fine.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Flying_Steph
Yes you did say that you had enjoyed working with some Ex-africa pilots but then you went on to say that you did not wish to fly with them any more.
I have not denied that Africa has its problems, I was born and bred there so I am not totally in "the dark".
From your posts it appears that you cover the whole of Africa with the same blanket and you talk of your experiences there as poor.
I wonder how long you were in Africa for,where in Africa you were and what these experiences of yours were?
Yes you did say that you had enjoyed working with some Ex-africa pilots but then you went on to say that you did not wish to fly with them any more.
I have not denied that Africa has its problems, I was born and bred there so I am not totally in "the dark".
From your posts it appears that you cover the whole of Africa with the same blanket and you talk of your experiences there as poor.
I wonder how long you were in Africa for,where in Africa you were and what these experiences of yours were?