How can a CPL holder fly P1 on a 1900?
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Everyone is operating CPL captains on B190's on the premise that it is certified for single crew for which I scoured the law and found nothing against it if it is puurely a single crew aircraft .
However
The 1900 A/B/C manuals state Minimum flight crew 1 pilot.
The 1900 D (UE series) manual states:
Minimum Flight Crew: 1 Pilot subject to limitations found page xxx
Amongst those limitations it lists; Boom mic, autopilot, 9 or less seats occupied and the unoccupied seat rendered inop with kit ####
(Don't have the manual with me now for exact pages and kit number)
This in my books makes the 1900 D a multi-crew aircraft and needs an ALTP.
However
The 1900 A/B/C manuals state Minimum flight crew 1 pilot.
The 1900 D (UE series) manual states:
Minimum Flight Crew: 1 Pilot subject to limitations found page xxx
Amongst those limitations it lists; Boom mic, autopilot, 9 or less seats occupied and the unoccupied seat rendered inop with kit ####
(Don't have the manual with me now for exact pages and kit number)
This in my books makes the 1900 D a multi-crew aircraft and needs an ALTP.
Está servira para distraerle.
The letter written by Mary Stephens is actually rather a worrying piece of communication.
It demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of civil aviation law and with its non sequiturs demonstrates an inability to interpret the same. It would seem perfectly obvious that Mrs Stephens has no experience of matters relating to aviation and neither has she legal training. Perhaps she should be sent down for retraining.
Unless one is in error, the MCM of a B1900 falls somewhere between 5.700 and 12.500kgs. Whatever became of the Senior Commercial Licence, died by the runway? Unless one is further mistaken, this single pilot operation certification needs clarification. It is (originally an FAA) clearance to operate, based on demonstration on the part of the manufacturer to the effect that a single pilot can safely reach and operate all controls, switches, levers and pulleys at any time. Single crew certification has nothing to do with the law and it is no business of the CAA to interpret, to the advantage of their clients,something which lies outside their domain.
Perhaps someone would be so kind as to inform the writer to whom correspondence at the SACAA should be directed in order to find employment there where one's talents could best be employed in sorting out the morass into which South African CAA has woefully degenerated .
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In TANZANIA, when the airline had the DHC-6 Twin Otters they were flown as one man crew but due to lot of pilot's by then it was decided to make it a 2 man crew and the only way to command was ATPL.
We flew as F/O's in those days as a 2 man crew a/c.
Of late there is an operator in Arusha ( Regional Air ) who flies same planes and commanders are CPL holders, still 2 man crew.
The issue here is that within the CAA its legal,but Airline can decide to have its own more stringent requirements.
The law allows this a/c to be flown by CPL holders, but I guess its 2 man crew for commercial operations.
We flew as F/O's in those days as a 2 man crew a/c.
Of late there is an operator in Arusha ( Regional Air ) who flies same planes and commanders are CPL holders, still 2 man crew.
The issue here is that within the CAA its legal,but Airline can decide to have its own more stringent requirements.
The law allows this a/c to be flown by CPL holders, but I guess its 2 man crew for commercial operations.
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The electronic age. Such a beautiful thing. Can still remember when I had
to sit in the right seat listening to the regurgitating cheetahs of the world,
the wannabe quantum physicians, the 10 year law graduates and yeah
just your common mule holes. Whereas before had to cunningly unplug the
old dc's without being noticed, now only needs to use the good old mouse
and presto, a crap filter at the touch of a button. Keep up the good work
hehehehehehehehehehehe
to sit in the right seat listening to the regurgitating cheetahs of the world,
the wannabe quantum physicians, the 10 year law graduates and yeah
just your common mule holes. Whereas before had to cunningly unplug the
old dc's without being noticed, now only needs to use the good old mouse
and presto, a crap filter at the touch of a button. Keep up the good work
hehehehehehehehehehehe
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All interesting points but, I'm in agreement with 4HP and for the following reason:
You're really trying to tell me that the companies of the size we're talking about, their insurance companies, their lawyers and actuaries haven't been through this already?
I just checked the UK regs and can't find any references to weight at all:
[edit] CPL
The Commercial Pilot Licence allows the holder to act as the commander of an aircraft, for valuable consideration, in single pilot operations, and also the right to act as a co-pilot of a multi-crew aircraft for which they are qualified.
[edit] ATPL
In addition to the privileges of the CPL, the holder of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence may act as the commander of a multi-crew aircraft.
You're really trying to tell me that the companies of the size we're talking about, their insurance companies, their lawyers and actuaries haven't been through this already?
I just checked the UK regs and can't find any references to weight at all:
[edit] CPL
The Commercial Pilot Licence allows the holder to act as the commander of an aircraft, for valuable consideration, in single pilot operations, and also the right to act as a co-pilot of a multi-crew aircraft for which they are qualified.
[edit] ATPL
In addition to the privileges of the CPL, the holder of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence may act as the commander of a multi-crew aircraft.
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confused
Desert fox69:
I am a little confused. In my SA CPL licence, it states on Page 5 (Ratings Included in Licence) : "TYPES : Single and multi-engine piston engine aeroplanes having a maximum certified mass of 5700kgs or less as endoresed in pilots logbook."
I am a little confused. In my SA CPL licence, it states on Page 5 (Ratings Included in Licence) : "TYPES : Single and multi-engine piston engine aeroplanes having a maximum certified mass of 5700kgs or less as endoresed in pilots logbook."
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As it has been said before in several posts already.
The AFM states that the plane is certified for single pilot ops.
Under Part 121, composition of flight crew is determined by the operator.
So, if your operator says a CPL is required, all laws met.
As for P2 ratings on such aircrafts, purely a South Africanism, no where else in the world has such ridiculous ratings.
Example, should the captain roll over dead with a heart attack, is the 1 hour 'mickey mouse' take offs and landings rating worth anything, does it leave him/her able to be in command of that plane and bring the pax home safely?
Both pilots should have P1 ratings and then one pilot is designated the captain, one the f/o, but both have been trained to the same standard.
The AFM states that the plane is certified for single pilot ops.
Under Part 121, composition of flight crew is determined by the operator.
So, if your operator says a CPL is required, all laws met.
As for P2 ratings on such aircrafts, purely a South Africanism, no where else in the world has such ridiculous ratings.
Example, should the captain roll over dead with a heart attack, is the 1 hour 'mickey mouse' take offs and landings rating worth anything, does it leave him/her able to be in command of that plane and bring the pax home safely?
Both pilots should have P1 ratings and then one pilot is designated the captain, one the f/o, but both have been trained to the same standard.
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I think in my above post the UK CAA are refering to aircraft that are certified multi crew aircraft. Yes SC I agree with you that P2 ratings on B1900s and such aircraft are plain silly, but I hold such a rating ... 
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To those of you who are having a battle coming to terms with Solenta flying a B1900 with a Comm as a PIC.
Solenta got off their bums and sort out the info at CAA from the RIGHT people, and from there they made their own decision to let their Comm pilots fly as PIC as it is legal as far as the CAA legal department goes.
Now for those that have difficult in understanding this, there is a 2 page memo from Herman Wildenoer, Legal Advisor at the CAA, explaining as to why this is legal.(I could explain, but feel it is easier for you all to go and read up the law yourselves)
Should you require a copy of the memo, give me a call and I will gladly give those in doubt a copy, (Oh and there is no fee attached for this memo just in case you are reaching for your wallets).
And for those also wandering, the memo is for public ditribution.
So for those B1900 Comm captains, have no fear, carry on flying until the new law comes into place.
Goffel by the sea...(and the #$%#* mine dumps).
Solenta got off their bums and sort out the info at CAA from the RIGHT people, and from there they made their own decision to let their Comm pilots fly as PIC as it is legal as far as the CAA legal department goes.
Now for those that have difficult in understanding this, there is a 2 page memo from Herman Wildenoer, Legal Advisor at the CAA, explaining as to why this is legal.(I could explain, but feel it is easier for you all to go and read up the law yourselves)
Should you require a copy of the memo, give me a call and I will gladly give those in doubt a copy, (Oh and there is no fee attached for this memo just in case you are reaching for your wallets).
And for those also wandering, the memo is for public ditribution.
So for those B1900 Comm captains, have no fear, carry on flying until the new law comes into place.
Goffel by the sea...(and the #$%#* mine dumps).
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hitting the nail
2 right in what you say, cavortingcheetah. The debate is held on 2 levels. The "clients" (reading a client as someone who pays for a service) and the CAA have their own little arrangement, and then there are a bunch of guys flying a strecthed 200 and thinking they've made the big league.
The way to resolve this is to take the CAA and the CPL's flying 1900's out to lunch and let everyone have a jolly good time, while the ATP's get on with flying heavy metal.
The way to resolve this is to take the CAA and the CPL's flying 1900's out to lunch and let everyone have a jolly good time, while the ATP's get on with flying heavy metal.
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CAA rules
Yes the CAA contradicts themselves frequently, afterall, they are just people, my advice READ THE BOOK! check it out for yourselves.
Most ICAO states have a cutoff point for CPL/ATPL as 5700kg, RSA has the two pilot point as the cutoff. Only in 135/121 is the small and large aircraft specified however this does not relate to licenses required for pilots - only operators. Part 61 is at this time still under review.
Bear in mind more serious points for Citation drivers - thinking the weight was the criteria.
Most ICAO states have a cutoff point for CPL/ATPL as 5700kg, RSA has the two pilot point as the cutoff. Only in 135/121 is the small and large aircraft specified however this does not relate to licenses required for pilots - only operators. Part 61 is at this time still under review.
Bear in mind more serious points for Citation drivers - thinking the weight was the criteria.
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and now I need to ask :
Today you have Johnny Rotten who is a com pilot with 5000 hours on various things including 1000 hours in command of a B1900.
Johnny goes and does his ATP test this afternoon. He passes. So is Johnny now a better B1900 driver than yesterday??
Before he tested, is he more dangerous than an ATP with only a coversion to his name?
I can understand the argument for both sides, but you guys a prioritizing the wrong issues. There is no difference between an experieced comm pilot, and an atp pilot, other than a flight test. Semantics, mere semantics. The 1900 is nothing more than a long king air glorified by those who think they are now flying big machines. It is not kind of aircraft that demands pilots of massive skill levels. Average skills will do - as proved in ZS 1900s operated all over the world by relatively low time crews. ATP pilots should have their sights set on bigger things than the 1900.
Today you have Johnny Rotten who is a com pilot with 5000 hours on various things including 1000 hours in command of a B1900.
Johnny goes and does his ATP test this afternoon. He passes. So is Johnny now a better B1900 driver than yesterday??
Before he tested, is he more dangerous than an ATP with only a coversion to his name?
I can understand the argument for both sides, but you guys a prioritizing the wrong issues. There is no difference between an experieced comm pilot, and an atp pilot, other than a flight test. Semantics, mere semantics. The 1900 is nothing more than a long king air glorified by those who think they are now flying big machines. It is not kind of aircraft that demands pilots of massive skill levels. Average skills will do - as proved in ZS 1900s operated all over the world by relatively low time crews. ATP pilots should have their sights set on bigger things than the 1900.
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So there are now laws governing aviation in Seffrika... mmmm thats new to me Thought that some operators were the law - or is that just to themselves? Only asking mind you........
Thought that some operators were the law - or is that just to themselves? Only asking mind you........