SAA - the bottomless pit
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Well Get on with it then
I personally cannot wait....fold, fold, fold
I am now a very gleeful boy for not having been taken into that fold of really SPECIAL drivers at SAA. Sorry that I could swim guys....however, soon it will be your turn to sink or swim...!!! The others will not be forced to employ anyone. About time they stopped wasting our money. There are much more important things to do with our tax money.....like creating some more " commissions " to enquire extremely important mysteries,like why the jails are so biased against the reflective folk....
I am sure the collective tears will be few!!!!!!!!!
I am now a very gleeful boy for not having been taken into that fold of really SPECIAL drivers at SAA. Sorry that I could swim guys....however, soon it will be your turn to sink or swim...!!! The others will not be forced to employ anyone. About time they stopped wasting our money. There are much more important things to do with our tax money.....like creating some more " commissions " to enquire extremely important mysteries,like why the jails are so biased against the reflective folk....
I am sure the collective tears will be few!!!!!!!!!
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Got a number of friends at Spoories and it would be a pity to see the drivers take it up the mudbox. The problem is management, not the drivers. If they can figure out how to control the parasitic management monkeys they'd be 90% of the way to getting it right.
Dumping a bunch of pretty well qualified pilots on the market will only make it more difficult for those of us still trying to get that break.
Dumping a bunch of pretty well qualified pilots on the market will only make it more difficult for those of us still trying to get that break.
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In order to survive, the legacy airlines in the US have reduced labour costs by up to 35%. Does SAA think they can turn themselves around without doing the same. They have to compete with the other domestic carriers whose costs are far lower than those of SAA. The problem is when losses of 15 billion rand are made, surely NO increases should have been be given. That's the way it works in most other businesses!
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Not only do they have to turn the business around, they will have to do something about flying the pathetic A340-600 to USA destinations as well as bring back Cape Town as direct stop from N/America.
Airlines in Europe are being flooded with seats from the USA because they overnight direct to Cape Town. It's only a 7 hour hawl to London, stretch the legs then a direct overnight to Cape Town, instead of wasting time in JHB.
Anyway, if they are going under, the back-ups are already operating and scooping up scores of passengers from USA to fly via Europe and its cheaper.
Airlines in Europe are being flooded with seats from the USA because they overnight direct to Cape Town. It's only a 7 hour hawl to London, stretch the legs then a direct overnight to Cape Town, instead of wasting time in JHB.
Anyway, if they are going under, the back-ups are already operating and scooping up scores of passengers from USA to fly via Europe and its cheaper.
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Dont get me wrong here
Guys just to clarify a point, I too have quite a number of good mates in Spoories, and it would be utterly disastrous for all of them to be dumped back into this little market of ours. However, the management needs that proverbial ice-cold-slap-in-the-face wake-up of having their little comfort zone destroyed, ultimately, by their own doing.
It is also time for the other Airlines, to have a fair chance in the industry, without having to compete with the taxpayers money. Lets look at the current strike going on. I find it so iconic of the type of thinking that rules the SAA nest. " WE DEMAND MORE MONEY," ummm.....okay lets do that by costing the company millions of dollars over the span of one weekend.....maybe more....time will tell, but we dont really have to wait for time do we, we already know. As a big supporter of all the other Airlines in SA, I so truly love the fashion in which SAA is actually empowering the non-govt-sponsored airlines, and the fashion in which these smaller guys are winning the hearts and minds of the man in the street. You go boys...(and girls)
.............you know why..................
It is also time for the other Airlines, to have a fair chance in the industry, without having to compete with the taxpayers money. Lets look at the current strike going on. I find it so iconic of the type of thinking that rules the SAA nest. " WE DEMAND MORE MONEY," ummm.....okay lets do that by costing the company millions of dollars over the span of one weekend.....maybe more....time will tell, but we dont really have to wait for time do we, we already know. As a big supporter of all the other Airlines in SA, I so truly love the fashion in which SAA is actually empowering the non-govt-sponsored airlines, and the fashion in which these smaller guys are winning the hearts and minds of the man in the street. You go boys...(and girls)
.............you know why..................
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Just remember, IR Pirate -
>>I personally cannot wait....fold, fold, fold<<
As pissed off as you may be for not having been accepted by SAA at some stage of your career, an airline folding does not do any of us any good. A flood of highly trained pilots onto the market maintains a static base salary and slows down promotion time. It truly is not, something to rejoice.
>>I personally cannot wait....fold, fold, fold<<
As pissed off as you may be for not having been accepted by SAA at some stage of your career, an airline folding does not do any of us any good. A flood of highly trained pilots onto the market maintains a static base salary and slows down promotion time. It truly is not, something to rejoice.
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Either way, the strike at SAA is making the management look damm stupid. Its not as if they could not have seen it coming and yet they seem totally unprepared. Its funny when SAA is striking over a 5% increase ...wanting 8% when Pick & Pay is striking over an 8% increase... wanting 12%.
P & Pay and SAA
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I have no qualms whatsoever to admit, that....yes I never got called back by SAA.....what gets to me though, is when their excuse to me, includes words like moratorium, equity, ministers.....
This is one topic I'm not going further into, suffice to say, that it would destroy the market, if they were to fold. Sometimes though, it might be for the greater good. They deserve it.
This is one topic I'm not going further into, suffice to say, that it would destroy the market, if they were to fold. Sometimes though, it might be for the greater good. They deserve it.
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Let me guess, Boyracer work for them.. now running scared that they might have to face reality.
Time they have a reality check and stop wasting tax money.
I agree with I.R.Pirate.
Solid Rust Twotter, I can understand your concernse, remember that numerous times on different threads most of us said we have good friends in S.A.A. and it is not the crew that is the problem ( except for boyracer).
Maybe if we cut this cancer out of aviation, the healthy ones can grow and there will be more jobs for the likes of us.
Sure some of the S.A.A. guys might have to leave for overseas, or join the bottom of seniority lists, but so be it.
Imagine no more monopoly and a level playing field..... I can only see a healtier aviation industry.
Time they have a reality check and stop wasting tax money.
I agree with I.R.Pirate.
Solid Rust Twotter, I can understand your concernse, remember that numerous times on different threads most of us said we have good friends in S.A.A. and it is not the crew that is the problem ( except for boyracer).
Maybe if we cut this cancer out of aviation, the healthy ones can grow and there will be more jobs for the likes of us.
Sure some of the S.A.A. guys might have to leave for overseas, or join the bottom of seniority lists, but so be it.
Imagine no more monopoly and a level playing field..... I can only see a healtier aviation industry.
Last edited by ByAirMail; 26th Jul 2005 at 14:03.
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BAM
Problem, of course, being that it would mean one less potential employer and a bunch of pilots on the market who would recieve preference over those of us who've never had the opportunity to fly jets. Current trends in aviation seem to favour those with jet time for jet jobs.
Problem, of course, being that it would mean one less potential employer and a bunch of pilots on the market who would recieve preference over those of us who've never had the opportunity to fly jets. Current trends in aviation seem to favour those with jet time for jet jobs.
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No-one should look forward to the demise of a national carrier, especially those not currently employed by them!
Let's not forget that many well-established European carriers have undergone, (or are in the process of undergoing), the painful privatisation transformation in order to 'level the playing fields' and 'reduce the taxpayers' burden'. The upshot thereof has always been a reduction in the terms and conditions of the effected employees' packages.
This is not a good thing. It means that everybody else's hand is weakened as well. 'If SAA can't afford it, how can we?' Does that sound like something your management would say come salary negotiation time? You betcha.
That does not mean to say it will not happen. Given its loss-making history, a restructuring is certainly on the cards in order to insure its survival: just be careful what you wish for - you might just get it where it hurts most - in the pocket.
Let's not forget that many well-established European carriers have undergone, (or are in the process of undergoing), the painful privatisation transformation in order to 'level the playing fields' and 'reduce the taxpayers' burden'. The upshot thereof has always been a reduction in the terms and conditions of the effected employees' packages.
This is not a good thing. It means that everybody else's hand is weakened as well. 'If SAA can't afford it, how can we?' Does that sound like something your management would say come salary negotiation time? You betcha.
That does not mean to say it will not happen. Given its loss-making history, a restructuring is certainly on the cards in order to insure its survival: just be careful what you wish for - you might just get it where it hurts most - in the pocket.
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Thanks Journeyman for making a point. This thread deserves way more respect than the usual whining and moaning of pilots who didn't crack the nod at Airways.
Perhaps as professionals we could offer some sympathy towards the current situation? Striking is a last resort - and I firmly believe the complaints with management go a LOT further than pay-related issues...
There are good guys in the airline, who strived in the charter and contract environments for many years before being offered employment at the club.
Personally I am worried for them. Its can't be nice to be caught up in this mess, and I hope the situation can be resolved...
How to solve it, I wonder??
Hey - I've got it!! Let's appoint ANOTHER CEO!!!!!
Perhaps as professionals we could offer some sympathy towards the current situation? Striking is a last resort - and I firmly believe the complaints with management go a LOT further than pay-related issues...
There are good guys in the airline, who strived in the charter and contract environments for many years before being offered employment at the club.
Personally I am worried for them. Its can't be nice to be caught up in this mess, and I hope the situation can be resolved...
How to solve it, I wonder??
Hey - I've got it!! Let's appoint ANOTHER CEO!!!!!
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I.R.PIRATE says in this thread that the A340-600's are pathetic ..or similiar words...
Sure I prefer the 747-400 ...but what is the issue with the A340..other than being a bit slow...
Sure I prefer the 747-400 ...but what is the issue with the A340..other than being a bit slow...
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Very interesting.Some time ago i posted a thread wondering how long and why SAA still used the call sign Sringbok.Looks like it will not be around for too much longer.Ag shame.
Prune was not around in April 1994 when Flites
tar died.I departed SA end of April 1994, for Ireland and thought i would be back in SA 6 months later.working for some Airline or other.Having spoken to several of my mates both in SAA and other Airlines,i certainly have no intention of returning.Plenty of jobs for drivers both on Airbus and Boeing world wide so might be an idea to start getting your CV'S up to date.As for the arguments about speeds of Boeing and Airbus's.Well some company's pay on block time so maybe better to be in a bus.
Good Luck
Prune was not around in April 1994 when Flites
tar died.I departed SA end of April 1994, for Ireland and thought i would be back in SA 6 months later.working for some Airline or other.Having spoken to several of my mates both in SAA and other Airlines,i certainly have no intention of returning.Plenty of jobs for drivers both on Airbus and Boeing world wide so might be an idea to start getting your CV'S up to date.As for the arguments about speeds of Boeing and Airbus's.Well some company's pay on block time so maybe better to be in a bus.
Good Luck
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Not the old Airbus vs. Boeing again, there are many threats on this subject, here and in other forums. The old "our friends in S.A.A. are good guys" have been discussed before as well.
Let’s concentrate on the issues at hand here.
When I look at this strike a think Hmm... May be the CEO is not setting the example and leading from the cost saving front. Therefore he is dealing with disgruntled employees
Has S.A.A. been giving their passengers the deal they deserve from a subsidized national carrier? Maybe not, these customers are now going to experience a new level of service when they book on the likes of Comair /B.A. , Nationwide and others.........will they go back to S.A.A. when this is al over?
Is the national carrier the leader in aviation in South Africa? I dough it. In that case they can definitely not afford this strike.
Let’s concentrate on the issues at hand here.
When I look at this strike a think Hmm... May be the CEO is not setting the example and leading from the cost saving front. Therefore he is dealing with disgruntled employees
Has S.A.A. been giving their passengers the deal they deserve from a subsidized national carrier? Maybe not, these customers are now going to experience a new level of service when they book on the likes of Comair /B.A. , Nationwide and others.........will they go back to S.A.A. when this is al over?
Is the national carrier the leader in aviation in South Africa? I dough it. In that case they can definitely not afford this strike.
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Leadership?
All I hear at the moment is that the current CEO has set a very bad example to his staff with respect to his very elaborate travelling arrangements.
Not being an expert nor privy to everything that has gone on at SAA there does seem to be a history of very strange decisions that have been made.
Thinking back to Coleman Andrews and the decision to buy the 737-800s, I found that one to be a strange one as SAA already was operating a fleet of A320s. Surely it would have been better just to upgrade the short haul fleet to include more A320/319/321s given that SAA already had a sim and experience with the type.
Then comes Andre Viljoen and it's about turn again to Airbus. Partly understandable as Airbus have given away their products to guarantee winning orders but a bit of a problem if you now have 20 odd brand new 737-800s in the fleet and have just invested in training your pilots to fly the type.
I don't think we can blame AV for hedging the wrong way when it came to the value of the Rand as at the time no one knew what was happening but what was the business logic in buying the A340-300?
So now there seems to me a hiddeous situation where SAA have a short haul fleet of B738 and A319 and a long haul fleet of B744s and a mixture of A340s. Would it not make sense to at least have an all airbus A319/20/21 or all boeing B736/7/8/9 short haul fleet.
The latest stink for me though is the lease of the 343s to India......good to see that at least the management realise its a crap machine, but rather strange to see them accepting an offer for lease way below that of another operator. Hang on a sec that's because the CEO had to pay for his nice holiday at the expense of Jet Airways. Shades of Zuma and Sheikh allover again me thinks
If I were the SA government I'd sack the current CEO and do whatever I could to get Rod Eddington to come out of retirement. 3-4 years ago a lot of people at BA were scathing of him but in what was a very difficult time took the tough decisions and secured BAs future at a time when the likes of Swiss Air/Sabena, and most US majors were in deep poo.
SAA still can be a major force on this continent but that cannot be taken for granted. Interesting when you look at South African succes stories be they in business/industry or sport, there have been a good number of them in the last decade. However in my view they have all been achieved in spite of and not because of political intervention. Moral of the story let the experts make the decisions and run the show. Perhaps then SAA might just be able to become the world class airline it has pretended for so long to be.
Not being an expert nor privy to everything that has gone on at SAA there does seem to be a history of very strange decisions that have been made.
Thinking back to Coleman Andrews and the decision to buy the 737-800s, I found that one to be a strange one as SAA already was operating a fleet of A320s. Surely it would have been better just to upgrade the short haul fleet to include more A320/319/321s given that SAA already had a sim and experience with the type.
Then comes Andre Viljoen and it's about turn again to Airbus. Partly understandable as Airbus have given away their products to guarantee winning orders but a bit of a problem if you now have 20 odd brand new 737-800s in the fleet and have just invested in training your pilots to fly the type.
I don't think we can blame AV for hedging the wrong way when it came to the value of the Rand as at the time no one knew what was happening but what was the business logic in buying the A340-300?
So now there seems to me a hiddeous situation where SAA have a short haul fleet of B738 and A319 and a long haul fleet of B744s and a mixture of A340s. Would it not make sense to at least have an all airbus A319/20/21 or all boeing B736/7/8/9 short haul fleet.
The latest stink for me though is the lease of the 343s to India......good to see that at least the management realise its a crap machine, but rather strange to see them accepting an offer for lease way below that of another operator. Hang on a sec that's because the CEO had to pay for his nice holiday at the expense of Jet Airways. Shades of Zuma and Sheikh allover again me thinks
If I were the SA government I'd sack the current CEO and do whatever I could to get Rod Eddington to come out of retirement. 3-4 years ago a lot of people at BA were scathing of him but in what was a very difficult time took the tough decisions and secured BAs future at a time when the likes of Swiss Air/Sabena, and most US majors were in deep poo.
SAA still can be a major force on this continent but that cannot be taken for granted. Interesting when you look at South African succes stories be they in business/industry or sport, there have been a good number of them in the last decade. However in my view they have all been achieved in spite of and not because of political intervention. Moral of the story let the experts make the decisions and run the show. Perhaps then SAA might just be able to become the world class airline it has pretended for so long to be.
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Im confused
Um........Parrot.....Now you really have me confused!! I somehow fail to find where I mentioned anything about the Airbus VS Boeing issue, maybe if you somehow found a hidden code in my rantings, I would be less confused, however.....
Boyracer, you're dead right. I am an A HOLE, and sorry to inform you, I dont care. If stating your opinion makes you an a hole, then I am the biggest of them all. Its time for the water-walkers to don their life-jackets.
Oh, and I forgot to mention....I already earn just about nothing, so whatever happens to SAA will really not affect me, unless all the established, married with kids, happy at home, SAA pilots suddenly decide , " To hell with the big jets and the cushy life, we are going to fly contracts now." Somehow I doubt.....
Boyracer, you're dead right. I am an A HOLE, and sorry to inform you, I dont care. If stating your opinion makes you an a hole, then I am the biggest of them all. Its time for the water-walkers to don their life-jackets.
Oh, and I forgot to mention....I already earn just about nothing, so whatever happens to SAA will really not affect me, unless all the established, married with kids, happy at home, SAA pilots suddenly decide , " To hell with the big jets and the cushy life, we are going to fly contracts now." Somehow I doubt.....